Is the United States doomed... or should it be?

[Cousin Mike]

Then obviously I gave you WAY too much credit. Apologies - won't happen again.

My point was not to try and prove you wrong - why would it be?

In MY city, we have a whole side of town you don't go to unless you want trouble... And it's the white boys you have to watch out for on Columbus' west side. So what? Does that prove anything? California has lots of asian gangs.. does that mean asians are dangerous?

Sounds to me like you are the one who is generalizing about the state of an entire nation, simply based on the areas of town where you deliver pizza's.

But for clarity, when did I say we should come together and be closed-minded?

This ought to be interesting.

 

[DRMMR02]

I'm a moron. You're gonna have to hold my hand and walk me through it.

Which parts of this specifically address what I was saying about where I personally live and what I personally witness?

If we want to find solutions to the problems that face this country, I'm all for it... But praising the confederacy, and basically making the claim that we simply need to roll over anyone else with a different point of view IS the problem, and NOT a solution.

The thing you folks often don't understand - you turn people off to your way of thinking by the words you use and the sentiments you echo.

I'm young. I'm black. I'm not rich. I'm male. I was raised in a single-parent home. I listen to hip-hop. I live in the inner-city.

Yet, I'm here, with you guys on this board dedicated to THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS because I believe in the same things you guys do.

When you split these things along racial lines, and say minorities are the problem with this country, you take a lot of people who fundamentally agree with you, and put them onthe other side of the fence...

The fact is, oftentimes, gun-owners are their own worst enemy... and as long as people want to use the racial demographic of certain crimes to justify a fundamentally racist philosophy, the more damage you do to the RKBA movement, and people who actually AGREE with the 2nd amendment - regardless of how they feel about gunowners.

If I'm a fence-sitter, and I read this - you guys have just pissed me off and reinforced every negative stereotype about gun-owners that I've ever heard.

How is pissing off 1/2 the country going to help us?

Simple answer.... it isn't.

Because this is what I am reading

Finding solutions to problems like THAT is also part of what it would take to make this country a better place. Not simply blaming poor people and minorities for every problem in this country. It's not accurate, it's not a forthright way of thinking, and it is, in fact, racism.

Talking about making the country better and blaming minorites for every problem. I of course didn't blame them for every problem. I states that where I live, they seem to be a greater cause of a select few types of problems.

If we want to find solutions to the problems that face this country, I'm all for it... But praising the confederacy, and basically making the claim that we simply need to roll over anyone else with a different point of view IS the problem, and NOT a solution.

Talking about the Confederacy. Which I never mentioned at all. Also saying "anyone else with a different point of view IS the problem, and NOT a solution" that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

The thing you folks often don't understand - you turn people off to your way of thinking by the words you use and the sentiments you echo.

Gun owners being their own worst enemy. Also not related to my problem.

I'm young. I'm black. I'm not rich. I'm male. I was raised in a single-parent home. I listen to hip-hop. I live in the inner-city. Yet, I'm here, with you guys on this board dedicated to THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS because I believe in the same things you guys do.

Talking about you.

When you split these things along racial lines, and say minorities are the problem with this country, you take a lot of people who fundamentally agree with you, and put them on the other side of the fence...

I never said they are the problem with this country. I said that some minorities cause more of certain and specific types of problems.

The fact is, oftentimes, gun-owners are their own worst enemy... and as long as people want to use the racial demographic of certain crimes to justify a fundamentally racist philosophy, the more damage you do to the RKBA movement, and people who actually AGREE with the 2nd amendment - regardless of how they feel about gun owners.

Again, more general "gun owners are their worst enemy talk.

If I'm a fence-sitter, and I read this - you guys have just pissed me off and reinforced every negative stereotype about gun-owners that I've ever heard.

How is pissing off 1/2 the country going to help us?

Talking about you, and another reference to the "own worst enemy" theory


So I ask again, exactly where did you address my specific problem about more burglaries, drug dealings and assaults being committed where I live by a certain race more than others?

 

[Cousin Mike]

Apples and pineapples, red herrings, strawmen and all...

This is why a lot of us stay out of L&Pee.

Have fun with you guys' discussion - hope someone comes up with an all-white, Christian theocracy soon, so you guys don't have to put up with anyone who doesn't think, act, walk or talk exactly like you do...

Oh, wait a second... escape from an all-white Christian theocracy is what founded this nation, right?

Damn reality... it's just so damned inconvenient.

My reason for entering this thread had nothing to do with YOU, or anything that you posted, DRMMR02. To be completely honest, I hadn't even read anything you'd posted. So it seems to me, that you've taken a problem I had with the sentiment of a very select few, and have made it something about you and I personally. For final clarity, my problem with this thread has nothing to do with anything you posted before, or after, my original post.

Your logic is not the logic I have problems with. In fact, it's one of the few I actually agreed with. Especially the following.

Admitting the truth, and finding the solution is actually the height of compassion.

But, since you seem to only be willing to disagree, I wonder where you find so much fault in my logic...

 

[Delmar]

Nope-take a good hard look at history. This country has suffered through a whole lot worse. All the grumblings and despair you hear is democracy at work. The rest is just a very low threshold of pain. We are a very selfish, badly spoiled democracy.

 

[DRMMR02]

Well since you were quoting me, responding to me, and talking to me, I assumed you had actually read what I wrote. My mistake.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Well since you were quoting me, responding to me, and talking to me, I assumed you had actually read what I wrote.

In my original post I did not quote you. I did not speak to you. I only responded to you after you responded to my original post. And we all know what they say about assumptions.

But since I have gone back and read your original post, it would seem we agree fundamentally that the thought of splitting this country in two based on the beliefs of the other 50% is (and this is putting it politely) stupid.

There is no magical middle ground where I have the right to keep and bear arms and someone else under the same law doesn't. There is no way for you to pay more taxes and I don't if I don't feel like it. That is the thing about Federal Law; it applies to everyone, no matter what they feel about it. So if the libs voter to curtail our RKBA, that's the law of the land, no matter how we feel about it. "I want my libertarian/Christian/white/rural slice of heaven and I want my socialist/Secular/minority/big city elite slice of heaven" cannot coexist under the same law. It is impossible.

It would seem to me that essentially, we are saying the same thing. Of course, I could do as you did, and simply dismiss every word in your post as thoughtlessly and childishly written, and condemn you for getting onto a soapbox if that's all I wanted to say...

...but why would I do that when it seems that we would agree that's what's best for this country is what's best for us all, and not the political/religious/social leanings of a few?

One would have to wonder then, why you took a post like mine, and took it personally - especially when you said nothing that I attacked, either directly or indirectly.

 

[jnojr]

There is no magical middle ground where I have the right to keep and bear arms and someone else under the same law doesn't. There is no way for you to pay more taxes and I don't if I don't feel like it. That is the thing about Federal Law; it applies to everyone, no matter what they feel about it. So if the libs voter to curtail our RKBA, that's the law of the land, no matter how we feel about it. "I want my libertarian/Christian/white/rural slice of heaven and I want my socialist/Secular/minority/big city elite slice of heaven" cannot coexist under the same law. It is impossible.

Which is exactly why "splitting" the nation may be inevitable. Why should half of the country have to lie down and give up their rights and property because the other half demands it?

Let "the Federal law of the land" apply to those whom agree with it, and let those of us who do not agree go our own way, peacefully.

 

[longeyes]

virtual reality for a virtual nation

Interesting thread, but while a few of us are debating America's political future, the Americans of tomorrow are frothing for PlayStations for PlayNation.

For the record, I favor secession--while there's still time.

 

[crunker]

Theoretically, this would be great.

I mean, the United States are not exactly a nation, more like a Union of what are supposed to be independant entities.

But I do not see it happening.

 

[Louisiana Carry]

I really just replied to say Hi to jnojr.

I am trying to stay away from GT (got miffed at that really good Consent of the Governed thread getting locked), and I was glad to see you hear.

Ok, off topic, I know...

I go now.

 

[DRMMR02]

Theoretically, this would be great.

I mean, the United States are not exactly a nation, more like a Union of what are supposed to be independant entities.

But I do not see it happening.

Bingo

If you think about it, we don't actually need a seperate nation for different ideas. That is what the states are for. If California wants to pass draconian socialist laws, that is their business. The problems arise when they try to impose their ideas on the national level. We are supposed to be united States. Not one giant nation. Small federal government and whatever size state government the citizens of that state want is the way things should be.

 

[longeyes]

If you think about it, we don't actually need a seperate nation for different ideas. That is what the states are for. If California wants to pass draconian socialist laws, that is their business. The problems arise when they try to impose their ideas on the national level. We are supposed to be united States. Not one giant nation. Small federal government and whatever size state government the citizens of that state want is the way things should be.

The more "national unity" we aspire to the more we will inevitably move toward socialism. The die is already cast. If we want to shore up any vestige of what the Founding Fathers intended we will work for creating a redoubt while there is still time. You can call it secession, regional autonomy, or states' rights, but it means putting a wall between us and the Federal Government and that, realistically, is not going to be an easy task.

 

[jnojr]

If you think about it, we don't actually need a seperate nation for different ideas. That is what the states are for. If California wants to pass draconian socialist laws, that is their business. The problems arise when they try to impose their ideas on the national level. We are supposed to be united States. Not one giant nation. Small federal government and whatever size state government the citizens of that state want is the way things should be.

But the way thigs are is that the large and growing population centers are sending more and more representatives to Washington D.C. who want to turn the whole country into a nanny state. They aren't happy with California, Massachussetts, New Jersey, etc. They won't be happy until Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming are just as "safe" and "diverse" and Politically Correct as everywhere else.

I don't see any way to reverse that trend... the population is growing, and the growth is in the Democrat-run large urban centers. We will never, outside of a major catastrophy that wipes out a lot of people packed into cities, see a conservative, Libertarian, small-government Washington again. That's why those who want to live in a Libertarian, small-government state are going to have to create their own, or live with the monster in Washington seeing all, controlling all, and taxing all that they do.

 

[longeyes]

I don't see any way to reverse that trend... the population is growing, and the growth is in the Democrat-run large urban centers. We will never, outside of a major catastrophy that wipes out a lot of people packed into cities, see a conservative, Libertarian, small-government Washington again. That's why those who want to live in a Libertarian, small-government state are going to have to create their own, or live with the monster in Washington seeing all, controlling all, and taxing all that they do.

I wouldn't, in this global climate, bet on extrapolating current trends. The current situation is volatile.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Don't Panic

Liberals are aborting their future generations at a rapid rate. There have been something like 45,000,000 abortions since Roe v. Wade. Conservatives don't abort their offspring, therefore, we'll win by attrition.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood

 

[aspen1964]

..not doomed(extinct)..but definitely threatened and approaching endangered...

 

[utahminirevolver]

I've seen two references to liberals aborting their offspring, and hence, their future. But liberals also favor wide open borders with lots of illegal immigration of folks who will eventually vote liberal. Liberals constitute today's wealthy elite, and control education (and entertainment -Hollywood and hip-hop, not to mention the biased mainstream news media), so they exert undue influence in this way.

Maybe liberal Americans will see the sense of joining conservative Americans in order to fight for our survival against Islamic imperialism once that menace again rears its ugly head right here in our homeland. They sleep pretty soundly, but more 9-11s just may awaken them. Let's hope we survive them...they may be Iranian/North Korean nuke-tipped missiles.

 

[Kankujoe]

Even the most liberal states or cities have large percentages of conservatives amongst them.

 

[jnojr]

Liberals also have control of the schools and the media. Even if it were true that the "liberal" population was waning and conservatives waxing, it wouldn't matter... the kids are being turned into Socialists.

 

[longeyes]

Liberals are aborting their future generations at a rapid rate. There have been something like 45,000,000 abortions since Roe v. Wade. Conservatives don't abort their offspring, therefore, we'll win by attrition.

Might be true if we had any serious immigration controls. If the amnesty bill passes next year, you can expect tens of millions of new leftwing voters in the decades ahead. Rove, the Genius, believes more Mexicans in America means more new Republicans; that will be about as true as this Administration's belief that inside every Iraqi there's an American trying to get out.

 

[DRMMR02]

Except, like what jnojr said, it doesn't really matter who has more kids. When said kids go to school, especially high school and college, they will be re-molded into liberals.

 

[meef]

xd9fan:

dont worry, blue state liberals are not having babies. Red state couples are having lots of babies...... Only a matter of time.

Well, blue state liberals don't have to have babies. All they have to do is pass an amnesty for the illiegal aliens.

Bingo! Instant 5-15 million baby voting block.

Red loses big time.

 

[Mr.V.]

conservatives/libertarians create a society with minimal government.

Seems like an awfully long time has passed since you could equate conservatives with minimal government.

 

[crazed_ss]

Look at the extreme, and growing, polarization between red states vs. blue. Just as they have no right to force us to accept Socialism, "universal health care", paying for millions of illegal aliens and welfare bums, etc; we have no right to tell them that they must become conservative and support our ideals.

I'm sorry, but this just sounds absolutely ridiculous. It almost sounds like something I'd expect to hear from an extremist. You're pissy because other people dont agree with your views.. and for that reason, you think people need to fight each other and split up.

And the whole thing about liberals and minorities.. Wow.. and you guys wonder why more and more Americans are turned off to the RKBA. Just look at the comments here. You guys just about write off %50 of the country.. It's no suprise people arent stoked about the RKBA.. gunowners play right into the stereotypes.

 

[Master Blaster]

No what makes us great is the fact that we tollerate disagreement and listen to and implement ideas from all parts of the political spectrum. The tide has swung from liberal to conservative about every 14 years or so in this country since Washington was president.

Thats the reason why the country has worked so well for so long, if any one group were put in charge there would always arise an opposing group with different ideas. Pretty soon you would have 50 different little states quarelling with each other in the national government, or 50 weak independent states fighting with each other over trivial stuff, and having border and customs disputes that would weaken any loose confederation and negate the power of the whole.

No we need the lefties, the neocons the conservatives the independents etc. to maintain balance.