Is the USP the only pistol to get the fundamentals right?

[Handy]

I know I already posted this, but if you are going to use the gun cocked and locked, why don't you guys just remove the decocking function? HK offers that module for that reason.

Really, there is always so much discussion on this board about practicing your manual of arms until you can trust yourself to do the right thing, everytime. Why have TWO manual of arms?

CZ does it right - Decock only, or safety only. They don't give you extra options to complain about.


Shake, I would think any correctly working pistol with a decocker should NOT fire with it depressed. If it did, it would also fire when the hammer dropped. But I have no particular knowledge of the USP mech.

 

[krept]

In a perfect world...

I agree...

I also really don't see the need for the variant one other than familiarizing yourself with the pistol, or if you feel the need to carry with the hammer up and locked. I think decocker-only ala SIG or safety-only ala 1911 makes for a more efficient manual of arms.

Of course, it makes a great learning tool to figure out which MOA you like better

This is how I would change the USP.

Here is the original.

Shorten distance to trigger, less of a monster trigger guard, the "hump" gone to get a higher grip, reposition of the manual safety lever, bobbed hammer, more aggressive grip angle...

the altered version

I wish it could be done.

 

[Shake]

Skunk,

I have a KI date code USP .40 Full size. . . no internal lock.

I was able to recreate what you mention (after some manipulation on my part). The only time it happens is if you short stroke the decocker, keep the decocker depressed partially (absolutely no movement up or down), and attempt to pull the trigger. Even then, it is a very small window of the stroke where it can happen. If you keep the trigger depressed and allow the decock to either snap back to the "Fire" position or finish the decock stroke, it will fire. I can't recreate it with any consistency.

Also, if this does happen during firing, seems like the gun isn't being gripped firmly enough?

If the trigger is pulled and the decock depressed simultaneously obviously the gun will fire.

I have a newer USP compact .45 that I haven't tried it on yet. I assume it would operate similarly.

This has never been a problem for me through thousands of rounds of shooting (including drawing, decocking as I bring up from low ready (my finger isn't on the trigger at that point). I shoot thumb high on my compact (riding the safety/decock with my thumb) which has more recoil than my full size, and have never encountered this problem. Obviously some have. Which is why I maintain that gun choices are best left up to each individual.

I just get a little bent (and this isn't directed at you Skunk) when people act as though they know what is best for OTHER people. I maintain and have always maintained that each person has his/her own requirements in a handgun. Choose the one that best fits your needs and live with it.

Shake

 

[Handy]

If the trigger is pulled and the decock depressed simultaneously obviously the gun will fire.

Again, how does this follow? If the decocker is depressed the hammer should be intercepted. What am I missing about USP decockers vs. other (Sig) frame decocker levers?

 

[Shake]

Handy,

That came out wrong.

What I meant was that if the trigger is pulled (and held) while the safety/decocker is stroked from "Safe" to "Fire" and through it's decock function, the gun will fire. This happens because the lever passes the "Fire" position prior to going through the decock function.

Ignore the "simultaneously".

Shake

 

[Handy]

Ah.

Why would one pull the trigger before releasing the safety? I ask because most guns won't even make it out of "safe" with pressure on the trigger.

But like I said, this seems like a non-issue. Don't buy an option you don't want.

 

[Shake]

Handy,

Good question.

I'd never thought of even trying the above as it is a non-issue for me. Never crossed my mind.

If it ever did become an issue, I'd follow your advice and remove the decock function as cocked and locked carry is an option.

Shake

 

[Sactown]

Ergonomics are in the hand of the holder. I do not find my USP40F to be particularly enjoyable for long shooting sessions. It has never failed and is pretty darn accurate but I still prefer the 1911 for ergonomics, build quality, and yes...reliability...my STI Trojan hasn't let me down yet.

 

[Mechanist]

quote:
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If the trigger is pulled and the decock depressed simultaneously obviously the gun will fire.
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No it won't...

Happened to me as well, twice. Mine is a AE USP40F. The trigger just does not go all the way down. Almost as if the safety were on. I guess this is only a problem for shooters who tend to grip the gun very tightly.

In addition tho that and a slightly difficult trigger, I can't think of other bad things to say about my USP.

 

[Shake]

Mechanist,

Read subsequent posts above. . .

Shake

 

[Mikul]

The USP has a lot going for it.

It's extremely well made. You have to take one apart to appreciate it. The internal parts are as finely finished as the external parts. I thought that all guns were like that until a 1911 die-hard saw me dismantle my USP.

I love the controls. I have never accidentally decocked mine. I can drop the magazine with my thumb, but I do have long fingers. The safety can be on while I dismantle it. The decocking feature is an asset. I carry condition 1, but beside the bed it's decocked. My biggest complaint about the 1911 is that the slide lock requires a grip change to actuate.

Out of the box accuracy is amazing. I have full confidence that I can pick which eye of a gremlin I would like to shoot out at 25 yards.

They work, and work, and work. My USP did die (broken firing pin) around the 40K round mark, and H&K is fixing it. H&K stands by everything, even the two magazines I've broken. Of course, at $38 each, they should.

The USP trigger can be a PITA. It has a long reset and a terrible DA pull. The LEM trigger addresses the second issue and another H&K trigger design is on the way to address the first.

The high cost of the USP is due to two things: 1) they're a near-match quality gun. No one complains about $800 Kimbers because they're worth it. 2) The exchange rate. The change to the Euro doesn't seem to be changing that because German goods cost more in Euros that Deutschemarks.

 

[Berg01]

Loved the USP 9c I tried; wasn't crazy about the 40f I tried; I kinda prefer most of the SIGARMS guns, but the USP 9c at least is a fine piece.

 

[Trisha]

smiling warmly

Hon, I'll have to see the passage of many decades more before I will presume to say one way or the other - but:

It was an enormous personal leap for me to buy my first polymer-framed handgun, a G21. That pistol has yet to ever fail, and has very good accuracy after a ridiculous number of rounds of ammunition. . .

After wanting something better designed to my ergonomics requirements (as well as with the AWB ban) I bought my USP Compact .45 Remarkable, slightly better accuracy than my Glock, a little easier to conceal, and as it's eating it's way through to the 30,ooo round mark it also has yet to fail.

BUT: I will always love a superb example of the 1911 design, and love owning one such, a Kimber Custom Eclipse II that shoots one ragged hold from a modified Weaver at 50 yards with match-grade handloads off of my single stage press.

There are literally dozens of handguns I would like to obtain and study, working them out to at least the 50,000 round mark, because then I could actually say what one sample from one line did vs another - but maybe, if I ever manage to finish the novel I'm writing (and it does wildly well, with demands for the rest of the story, or one of the other outlines I have waiting) and have some folding cash free I will pursue that dream!

Till then, my scope is painfully limited - but I'm a very happy mountain girl with the few wonderful examples of modern engineering and technology that are in the safe (and one is in a comfortable shoulder rig now)!

Trisha

 

[BerettaNut92]

The USP trigger can be a PITA. It has a long reset and a terrible DA pull. The LEM trigger addresses the second issue and another H&K trigger design is on the way to address the first.

What's the other HK trigger design?

 

[dwestfall]

had a AA USP40F and an AB USP45C...both, if I pushed the lever down so far, it wouldn't decock the gun, but the gun wouldn't go bang. I think the trigger moved a little, just not all the way back.

I could replicate this with a USP9, and actually had it happen during a class. Riding the safety of course, I didn't realize that during recoil the safety lever had moved down toward Decock. Not far enough to actually decock it, but due to my thumb pressure it couldn't fully return to Fire either. It seemed to me that it was still on Fire though.

The trigger would travel all the way back, but nothing would happen. I tried it a couple times, then TRB fixed it. Later I experimented with it and could duplicate the problem.

I subsequently sold the USP9 because it's accuracy in my hands paled to the USP45 I also had. The USP45 has a match trigger but I still prefer to keep it cocked and locked. I switched to v9 (safety only, no decock). The v9 cannot fail the way I have just described.

I really like my USP45. Yes the bore axis is high but the recoil is the softest of any .45 I've tried (and I've tried a bunch.)

The mag release works very well for me. I have never had any malfunctions with the USP45.

 

[Handy]

The USP has the same bore axis as a 1911. The recoil system is great.

 

[Caseless]

I like to think that my USP 40 combines the accuracy of a Sig classic with the reliability of a Glock 9mm. I only wish HK would wake up and make one in 357 SIG in full size or Expert trim.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

The USP has the same bore axis as a 1911.

In theory, yeah, but I can't choke up on it very well due to the shape of the upper part of the backstrap. (Where it has that annoying 'swell'. Like they say, though, ergonomics are highly subjective.)

 

[krept]

Exactly.

I recently spoke with Mark at Arizona Response Systems... they do the Glock grip reduction along with Robar.

I asked him if it were possible to remove some of the material from the frame of the USP, especially where the hump area is. He said he didn't think so. I think the USP is a great design but the inability to choke up is a detriment to me. I would like to use the high thumbs grip here as well, but cannot reach it as I can on a 1911. This is where, IMO, the 'ergonomics' are lacking for me. Plus the double stack .45 is just a little big for my hands when I take into account the need to manipulate the safety AND get a good amount of finger on the trigger. I just can't do it fast enough.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that there is still a perfect pistol out there, I have faith. This one is very close.

cheers

 

[Archer]

The USP can be shot very well, but the pistol is simply too large for many people (not me).

The main problem is that ordinary USP's have triggers that can't compare to even the cheapest third-world 1911 clone. Also the pistol is simply too thick for good concealment. (I can hide a 5" Government Model much more easily, comfortably, and completely, than a USP Compact .45)

I handled a USP Expert today, euro-model, and it had a very good trigger.

Identical to that of a Mark 23 of my acquaintance, and 90% of the one on my Springfield Professional.

If HK had put this trigger on the USP from the start there would be less debate about what is a very reliable utility pistol.

In 30K rounds shot through three separate USP Compacts I never experienced a problem with the decocker, but if i try i can make it do what was described.