is this right for winclean ammo?

[greyling22]

my boss knows I reload so he brought me a box of empties the other day. I took a look at the primers and asked if these were handloads and he said no, they were factory. Do winclean ammo primers look like this normally, or did somebody slip him some very hot reloads as new ammo?

 

[rcmodel]

Certainly not normal.

However, it could have been caused by a very dirty gun they were fired in.

Seriously bad hard carbon rings from shooting .38 Spl and not cleaning the chambers can raise pressure clear through the roof.
As can a badly leaded barrel.

The .38 Spl hard carbon rings, if bad enough, will prevent the .357 case mouths from expanding enough to release the bullets when they are fired.

First thing I would do is check his gun for that.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

The next time someone wants to see what a "flattened" (Well, seriously flattened) primer looks like, we have pics.

Nope, not normal. My guess is rcmodel is dead on about the problem.

Not a whole lot more pressure, and really bad things start happening.

First you start blowing primers, then you start blowing cases, and that is when people get hurt, sometimes seriously.

 

[LiveLife]

I thought Winchester went to "bronze/brass" colored primers quite a few years back ... Maybe they are some old stock but the box looks new.

Wonder where he bought that box of *cough - reloaded* ammo?

Many people have bought what they considered "new factory" ammo just because the cases were shiny and were in "new looking" factory boxes. When I point out obvious signs of reloading (wrong color primer, extractor marks, even resizing marks), they say but they were in factory boxes ... I tell them I could pick up new factory boxes out of range trash can all day long ... then the light bulb goes on and they comment, "No wonder they were so cheap!"

The next time someone wants to see what a "flattened" (Well, seriously flattened) primer looks like, we have pics.

+1, looks like definitely overpressure loads. I am bookmarking this picture for future reference too.

 

[greyling22]

Well my first thought was dangerously over pressure, but I thought well, maybe those newfangled leadfree primers are different. But the flash hole inside is a standard size which is why I thought reloads.

I guess they're still safe to reload? I shoot low pressure lead reloads and run my brass till it splits.

Glad I could be be a good reference source once again. Last time it was when I had a finger infection one time and the red streaks started running up my arm and made it to my shoulder before I got to a doctor. He took pictures to use as a reference for a class he was teaching.

In the meantime I'll have my boss bring is smith in to take a look at. He pulled my wife's truck out of a ditch one time, I can clean a pistol for him.

 

[helotaxi]

Check the headspace. Flat primers without any sign of cratering would indicate that the pressure wasn't necessarily high but rather there was room for the primer to back out before the brass stretched back to the frame, smashing the primer flat.

Primers are a poor indicator of pressure.

 

[Walkalong]

These aren't.

But yes, primers are not really a proof positive way to read pressure. Helpful at times, definitive at other times, but totally worthless sometimes.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Those primers look EXACTLY like the primers did on the last box of .380acp winclean I shot a couple three years back.

I actually refrained from finishing the box due to the primer appearance. Since then I seem to reccolect reading that winclean flashholes are greatly enlarged which could explain the "inflated" primer look.




So if you're going to use that pic as reference the caption needs to be how primer appearance doesn't necessarily tell you ANYTHING about pressure

 

[Walkalong]

But the flash hole inside is a standard size which is why I thought reloads.

OP says the flasholes are standard size.

 

[R.W.Dale]

OP says the flasholes are standard size.

measured or eyeballed?


from winchester

Question: Are WinClean cartridges reloadable and why is the flash hole in the shellcase enlarged?
Answer: Regarding the enlarged flash hole of the shellcase loaded in 45 Auto WinClean products (WC451 and WC452): The flash hole in this shellcase was enlarged in order to achieve optimal ignition while utilizing a lead/ heavy metal free primer. Winchester conducted extensive testing prior to the introduction of this product and determined that the larger flash hole will not have an adverse effect on reloads using standard leaded primers. Please remember, Winchester does not offer a component lead/ heavy metal free primer. Other calibers within the WinClean line are manufactured with a standard diameter flash hole. As always, reloaders should utilize published data from a recognized source and work loads up carefully.

Looks to be a 45acp thing

Either way those primers look exactly like any other winclean fired primer I've seen

 

[gamestalker]

Those are some super flat primers.

 

[LiveLife]

Well, if this flattening of primers is normal for WinClean ammo, then maybe we could get some more picture confirmations from other shooters.

greyling, can you verify if the primer pockets got loose? If the primer pockets are tight, I would reload those cases.

Usually for me, over-max cases with flattened primers are much harder to resize - if primer pockets are loose, they are marked at the base and scrapped.

 

[Walkalong]

measured or eyeballed?

Good question.

Looks to be a 45acp thing

It would appear so.

those primers look exactly like any other winclean fired primer I've seen

Very interesting, as those primers are seriously flat. To my knowledge, I have not seen any fired factory winclean ammo, until now.

 

[greyling22]

flash hole sizes were eyeballed. I'll decap a few tonight and post a couple more pics. I might even give winchester a call.

 

[ReloaderFred]

For several years the Coast Guard was shooting .40 S&W Winchester WinClean ammunition on our range. Each and every primer in the thousands and thousands of rounds they fired here looked exactly like the primers in the picture.

Those primers are not an indication of high pressure at all. They are an indication of the higher brisance of the priming mixture used in the Non-Toxic primers. The primer is driven from the case at a much higher speed than with lead styphnate priming compound. By the time the pressure from the burning powder drives the case back onto the primer, it's flattened out like that from hitting the back plate of the revolver, or bolt face of the slide, depending on caliber and firearm.

There is nothing wrong with that brass and it's perfectly safe to reload. A few quick measurements will show that. Just measure the diameter of the fired case just above the web and you'll find that it's within specifications for case expansion of the .357 Magnum.

These cases were probably from ammunition produced during the ongoing experimentation process in trying to develop a NT primer that won't cause problems in "all" firearms.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Walkalong]

Well, case closed then. Learned something new.

 

[PO2Hammer]

All the .357 Winclean I've fired looks like that with very flat primers.

I think Fred's explanation also explains why they don't make large NT primers.

 

[greyling22]

well good to know then. Thanks fred.

 

[IMtheNRA]

I have a few boxes of Winchester .357 mag and .44 mag factory-loaded rounds left over from before I started reloading. Once in a while, I shoot a few rounds to compare the feel to my reloads. Every single primer in both of those calibers is flat just like the primers in the OP's photos. While Winchester loads feel significantly hotter than my handloads, I doubt that Winchester would load them to unsafe pressure levels.

For me, that was proof that simply looking at primer flatness is not a reliable indication of dangerous pressure.

Of course, all the primers in my once-fired Winchester brass are brass-colored. I've never seen a silver colored primer in genuine Winchester ammo. Don't have any experience with Win Clean in these calibers, however. Maybe they have a subcontractor like IMI making it for them with non-Winchester primers.

ETA: That is some pretty dirty brass for Win Clean. I have lots of 9mm and .45 Win Clean brass, and it looks perfectly clean, even inside! The stuff in your photo is filthy!

 

[greyling22]

I sent winchester a picture of the ammo before Fred chimed in, and this was there response:

"This primers look normal for this Win Clean product.

Art Ambrosi
Winchester Ammunition

 

[greyling22]

I want to resurrect this thread briefly to give an update on these cases. They are a pain in the butt to reload. The primer doesn't pop out. The decapping pin just punches right through the primer, bowing it out enough to really screw up the cycling of a progressive press. And if you try to rotate and decap it again it punches out the center and leaves a ring you have to pull out with needle nose pliers. Once deprimed they seem to reload just fine though.

If I wasn't such a penny pinching fool I would have just thrown them all away. That and they were mixed in with a bunch of other 357 from the case tumbler. See pics. (phone quality)

 

[ReloaderFred]

I've had PMC primers do the same thing. The primer residue from the PMC's is a white substance, and it seems to glue the primers in place. All of mine where the primers came apart were with factory ammunition.

Those with half the primer cup left in the pocket go into my recycling barrel. Last trip to the recycler last month I received $2.05 a pound for yellow brass.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Certaindeaf]

Perhaps it is from lack of brissance. Perhaps the cup must be made thinner to set it/the non-death mix off.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I've had PMC primers do the same thing. The primer residue from the PMC's is a white substance, and it seems to glue the primers in place. All of mine where the primers came apart were with factory ammunition.

Those with half the primer cup left in the pocket go into my recycling barrel. Last trip to the recycler last month I received $2.05 a pound for yellow brass.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Isn't PMC one of the few commercial offerings to laquer/waterproof their primers in place?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Every round of winclean I've ever fired flattened primers like that. Be it 380 or 45

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