Isn't the 44 Special for defense just awesome?

[Diggers]

Oh....then I agree with you Prosser.

There is crappy ammo out there for most calibers, thats pretty much a given.
I carry a 442 so I know about trying to find good ammo for a snub .38

I think the whole Keith messing with the .44 special thing gave people the idea that it was a weak round that needed fixing. In reality what Keith was doing was making a round that was really good for hunting and NOT so good for SD. He may of not thought so but I just don't think one needs to be able to shoot through two people to call a caliber OK for defense.

The BoxOtruth did some tests with .45 LC and the water, its pretty close to the .44 special. It IS interesting how the Keith SWC blew through so much when the flat round nose went through less. Humm wonder why... http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot28.htm

 

[1911Tuner]

I think the whole Keith messing with the .44 special thing gave people the idea that it was a weak round that needed fixing. In reality what Keith was doing was making a round that was really good for hunting.

Keith's supercharging of the .44 Special wasn't so much to increase its killing power as to increase its range. Elmer understood that added velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory and maintain a good measure of lethality at longer ranges than most people thought a handgun was good for. Remember that he was an early proponent of shooting revolvers at much greater distances than most people even considered...and he wanted his big bore revolvers to not only be accurate enough to reach way out to those distances, he wanted the bullet to have enough steam left to do the job when it got there...which was most often a large game animal. In that venue, the original .44 Special was indeed anemic, and the .45 Colt wasn't a lot better.

He also liked heavy bullets to insure enough penetration. Keith liked through and through wounds, and he drew on the old Buffalo hunters' use of heavy slugs so that he could get a high level of penetration with a handgun...so he could literally see "Ropes of Blood" trailing from both sides of an animal that didn't fall to the shot. He wanted them to bleed out quickly, because he didn't want to have to trail them very far and risk losing a good part of his winter meat supply to a scavenging pack of wolves or coyotes.

The added punch and penetration at close range was also added insurance against large, dangerous animals, such as the big Browns and Grizzlies that were prevalent in his neck of the woods. Penetration and the ability to break large bones could mean the difference between surviving an attack, and being on Papa Bear's menu.

So, Keith's efforts weren't really geared for defense against human beings, though they could be used for that. They were primarily done with hunting in mind, and secondarily for emergency use against large animals that often take umbrage at having their territory invaded.

Historically, a heavy, blunt lead slug fired at moderate velocity makes for a good defense round at close range...against people. Pictures of the human wreckage brought about by the 490-grain Minie' bullets at an initial 960 fps (claimed) velocity bears grim witness to that.

A 240-grain lead bullet at 750 fps isn't something that I want bouncing around in my rib cage. Nossir!

 

[Prosser]

Diggers:
Thanks, great link. Liked the conclusion:

Lessons learned:
1. JHP bullets aren't really much improvement on these big rounds. Even if they don't expand, they are still .45 inch wide.

2. Hard cast lead bullets will penetrate plenty deeply. Old Elmer Keith told stories of seeing horses shot with .45 Long Colt pistols in gun battles that had two holes in them....one going in and one going out the other side.
No lack of penetration.

3. A man armed with this round is not under-armed regarding penetration. But they are slow to shoot and even slower to reload. That's why many old gunfighters had mulitple pistols on their horses' saddles.

4. And, as always, it's sure fun to shoot stuff with these great pistols.

I've always thought the speed that these heavy bullets maintain as they pass through the target is an undervalued part of the equation. A 240, or heavier LFN maintains it's speed through the target, resulting in a wider wound channel then expected, and usually for the entire distance through the animal.

To convince me that a hollow point is a better bullet for caliber, the HP has to be VERY heavy. For a 44, maybe 300-325 grain, for 45, maybe 325-350 grains. If it expands, then it has enough bullet weight to maintain pretty good velocity through the target, and maybe give you two holes.

Thing is, everyone that I know that tries these goes back to LFN cast, since they just WORK, and about 100% of the time.

The only piper to pay is the additional weigh means you have to have grips that work, for you, with that gun, fitted to your hands, so you can control the gun.

At the end of the day, Keith had it pretty much perfect. Great penetration, plenty of damage, two holes, and an easy to shoot gun.

1911Tuner: Don't take my comments personally. It's a long history of gun forums that only tolerate what a certain moderator, or group think is the Holy Grail, and deviations are not allowed, acknowledged, or tolerated.
Been through a number of those.

My experience with the Remington out of my Bulldog was I wouldn't have to worry about it bouncing off anything, except the stuff that was behind the target I was shooting at, and not DIRECTLY behind it. I could not keep that junk on a man sized sil target at 7 yards.

Went home, loaded 240 grain HPs, at about 950 fps, ala Keith, and it was easy to keep all my shots on the head at 7, and, actually better then that.
Problem was the loads shot the gun loose, since I shot my gun a LOT back then.

Thanks for the speed feedback, but, I have to think I got a REALLY bad batch of .44 special ammo in that Remington box. Huge fire and smoke ball, terrible accuracy, and very slow bullet speed.

Finally, I just don't get all the 165-200 grain SD loads for the .44 Special. WHY? You can move that weight bullet out of a 45 ACP at near the same velocity or more, that these loads are going. Also, if you are going to use a light bullet, use a LFN, or flat point Jacketed bullet. I think the .44 Special would shine with 240-275 grain HP's at about 950-1100 fps. It just seems like such a waste to use such a big case, and not take advantage of it.

 

[NMGonzo]

I carry my .44 magnum (about the size of the 629) some of the time (garment permitting) and for the life of me I cannot imagine anyone staying put as I let go the first round.

Even with earmuffs I want to run myself from my own gun

Regarding Ruger not making a 5 shot version of the 44 magnum:

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH~

 

[Diggers]

1911Tuner, good info about Keith and his goal with the .44 special. I guess he got what he wanted out of it. MAGNUM!

Although I do still think people have a misconception about the .44 special because of all that lead to the development of the magnum, which inturn has made it somewhat unpopular today.

Its odd that there are all those modern light weight snubs in .38 special (or .357) out there but VERY few .44 specials. The only one I see right now is the Bulldog. (Which I want for when I’m on the river fishing, easy to carry but still a .44 ) With CCW on the rise you would think the gun makers would jump on that.

Anyhow, didn't Keith own any rifles?

 

[HelterSkelter]

harry callahan carried a 44 magnum. much stronger round, even with the over penetration i would say the 44 magnum is a better man stopper since it will transfer more energy before coming out the other side.

@ the guy who said he switched from .45 acp to 44 special, the .45 acp is a much better, stronger, and cheaper round.

 

[Bovice]

Actually, I think "Harry Callahan" used .44 specials in his .44 mag. He made mention of that during the movie.

 

[HelterSkelter]

are you sure? i don't remember him ever mentioning that. it wouldn't make sense for him to call him gun the most powerful production handgun (even thought the .454 casull was stronger) if he was using 44 specials in it.

EDIT:

you are right he does say he uses 44 specials, that's really weird.

 

[1911Tuner]

On the .45 Colt/.44 Special comparison...

The .45 Colt has long been touted as a good defensive cartridge, even when the original ballistics were attenuated by downloading the loading from 40 grains of BP to 32 briefly, and then to 30 grains for 850 or so fps and a 250 grain RN bullet. (Not 255)

But somehow, a RN bullet that's .020 inch smaller in diameter and 4 grains lighter is labeled a weak sister because it's moving 50-100 fps slower.

It's a little like the comparison between a .308 rifle firing a 165 grain bullet at 2600 as opposed to a 150 grainer at 2750. Flip a coin. Not trying to force an opinion as a "Holy Grail" or anything...just making the observation that we're not talkin' about a whole lotta difference here. Up the ante with a good SWC for the .44 and the gap is even narrower.

Bump it up to 850 or 900 fps...easy to do with th right powder...and the .44 can easily surpass the original "Manstopper" .45 in effectiveness against human assailants.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There's no question the .45 Colt was effective -- as it proved many times in battle. On the other hand, a revolver built to do justice to the .45 is quite a bit to carry concealed for self defense -- I have a Ruger Blackhawk (5 1/2" barrel) and a Colt New Service (7" barrel). I regard them as "woods guns," or "horseback gubns." In town, I carry a M1911 concealed.

 

[Diggers]

HelterSkelter,

I'm curious why you think

the .45 acp is a much better, stronger, and cheaper round.

I'll give you cheaper for sure, way more .45s being made then .44 specials thus its cheaper to produce.

However why in your opinion is it much better and stronger?

From what I have seen from tests, good quality .45 acp ammo is pretty much identical to good quality .44 special ammo in terminal balistics. The .44 may even have a slight edge in the power it can produce.

 

[1911Tuner]

The .44 may even have a slight edge in the power it can produce.

Indeed! Using a 250-grain cast SWC and 7.5 grains of Unique...commonly known as "The Skeeter Load" the chronograph insists that my 5.5-inch Cimarron Model P is kissing 950 fps...and a bit over 900 from the 4.75 inch Model P. That puts the anemic old Special on a par with the .45 Colt and trounces the +P .45 ACP.

That's a power load, by the way. I don't use it much in the Cimarrons. My range load is the same bullet with 6 grains Unique. Accurate and pleasant...it's easy on the guns and it knocks the falling plates down hard.

 

[Diggers]

1911Turner,

What kind of fps do you get with a 250 grain bullet over 6 grains of Unique?

I'm curious now how the recoil in a bulldog thats pushing a 200 grain bullet around 800ish would be when compared to a 442 shooting +P ammo. I carry a 442 and don't find the recoil of +p ammo to be all that much.

Just really hard to be objective about recoil.

 

[whitecoyote]

The .44 Special is one of my favorite calibers.


S&W model 28 .44 Special.

 

[1911Tuner]

What kind of fps do you get with a 250 grain bullet over 6 grains of Unique?

Never clocked that one, but just going by set-of-the-pants feel and comparing time between hammer fall and plate whack...I'd guess somewhere in the vicinity of 750-800 fps, or very close to duplicating factory 246 lead RN ballistics.

Incidentally, 7.5 grains of Unique pushing a .410 210 grain lead SWC closely duplicates the advertised velocities for the old "Police" .41 Magnum round at about 950 fps from my Model 58. (970 advertised)

 

[saltydog452]

Mr. Keith, bless his pea-picking, 10 gallon heart, wasn't the slightest bit bashful in telling someone which way the wind was blowing, even indoors.

It was also a good thing, for lots of folks, for Keith to keep his name in print, and to stir and flux the pot on occasion.

Like Jordan, Skelton, and especially Cooper, the man did have his own interesting style.

We all owe a debt to these folks. I Might not agree with everything that was attributed to them or appeared with their by-line, but, damn, it'd be hard to argue with them.

salty



PS:

Cayote, what kind of rear sight is on the last two S&Ws?...who did the work?...where'd you get the grip panels?

thnx,

sd

 

[Prosser]

Indeed! Using a 250-grain cast SWC and 7.5 grains of Unique...commonly known as "The Skeeter Load" the chronograph insists that my 5.5-inch Cimarron Model P is kissing 950 fps...and a bit over 900 from the 4.75 inch Model P. That puts the anemic old Special on a par with the .45 Colt and trounces the +P .45 ACP.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Tim Sundles wrote:
...The below velocities were fired from my personal Colt Gold Cup 1911 (5 inch)


1. 45185-----------1180 fps (185gr. Jhp)
2. 45200-----------1078 fps (200gr. Jhp)
3. 45230------------979 fps (230gr. Jhp)
4. 45230FMJ------981 fps (230gr. Fmj-FLAT NOSE)
5. 45255------------960 fps (255gr. HARD CAST-FLAT NOSE)

So, we can put the Plus P, with 255 grain Flat nosed bullets in the same category as the .45 Colt, and the .44 special.

Funny thing about heavy bullets: They seem to work better at developing velocity then the lighter ones.

 

[1911Tuner]

Prosser...If you intend to shoot a lot of that stuff in your Gold Cup...might wanna keep a close eye on the upper lugs. Back in the day, when I was doin' wrench duty...we used to refer to the Detonics .451 conversion as "The Lug Buster."

Lotsa foolish children have pushed the envelope with guns and ammunition, and discovered the error of their ways...like I did with the .451 et al.

Or, as the man said:

"Just because you can doesn't mean that you should."

 

[Diggers]

HA! Gotta wonder when the ammo comes with advice to change your recoil springs up 4 to 6 pounds from factory spring AND perhaps use a shock buffer.

BB ammo is HOT stuff (obviously) but that really isn't the norm for +P .45 acp. It seems like most +P stuff is under 900 and some even under 800 for a 230 grain bullet. (not sure how anything under 800 is +P but thats what is says.)

I really do wonder about BB ammo. They make .38 ammo that call standard pressure but get +P speed out of it. Makes me wonder if they might be using a different scale of what standard pressure in a .38 special is.

 

[1911Tuner]

HA! Gotta wonder when the ammo comes with advice to change your recoil springs up 4 to 6 pounds from factory spring AND perhaps use a shock buffer.

The stresses on the upper lugs and the slide will be there regardless of the recoil spring and whether or not a shock buffer is used.

And make no mistake. Destructive forces are in play, and the higher the recoil impulse, the more destructive they are.

 

[Prosser]

HMMM.

IIRC, springs tend to loose half their tension in normal wear. What Tim Sundles is suggesting, who, by the way, if you read the quote closely, is from his website, is ensuring that the gun is at least at starting specs, rather then having weak springs, and thinking you won't hurt your gun.

Check me on this, but can't you change the timing on a 1911 (change the link length)
so the gun stays locked longer, then opens at standard pressure, rather then opening early?

By starting with higher strength springs, you end up with a bottom end tension that is much closer to stock new spring tension, after they 'break in',
yes?

1911Tuner:
What do you think of the Sprinco recoil rods?

http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html

Just got done reading your second post. The .451 Detonics "conversions"? I don't remember them having a kit. I just bought Detonics Mark VI's, and Mark VII's.
The load we used was around 45 Super specs, 200 grain HP at 1200 fps. Shot one gun, 3-4 days, 2 hours a day, at least, for 5 years, no problems, and never changed
the springs, after putting the stiffest Wolfe springs in they made.

Mike McNett seems to have similar ideas:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_34&products_id=428

Commercial reloaders have access to powders we don't. Some do things, and allow ballistics, that are better then what we can handload. BB uses 297, I know, in some of his big bore stuff, which works REALLY well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Changing the barrel timing by juggling link on-center lengths is a good way to wreck the gun. The link times the barrel drop. Too long or too short, and the barrel may not get out of the slide's way in time to keep it from tearing the lugs off. By the time the proper length link starts to do its thing, the bullet is gone and the pressure has dropped.

Pressure isn't the only concern with the hot-rod ammunition. Recoil impulse and those tiny radial upper barrel lugs that bear the brunt is the main concern...and if there are only one or two that take the hit...especially of the first lug isn't one of'em...you can do some expensive and possibly dangerous damage.

Only rarely do all three lugs share the load equally unless hand-fitted.

 

[Prosser]

1911Tuner:
I'm not doing this. A qualified, Certified Gunsmith did this to my 1911 Kimber Custom II.
I think that was how he did it, but, I might be wrong.

I mainly shoot lead 230 grain ball, with a fairly stiff load. Can't remember what the last 1000 was loaded with. Anyway, it cycles just fine, and, I shoot 45 Super level Buffalobore to check reliability. Also works well out of the Detonics CombatMaster.
Both have the stiffest springs made by Wolfe, and, the Sprinco is in the Kimber as well.

Both guns were gone through by Jack Huntington and Jason of JRH Advanced Gunsmithing.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I have clocked the RCBS .44 cal. cast 250 over 7.5gr Unique (the Skeeter load), from a 4" barrel S&W Model 24, and it gave right around 900fps (890fps, if I remember right).

 

[Diggers]

Thanks SharpsDressedMan, that seems right in line with 1911Tuner's findings using a bit longer barrel.