Issue weapons for security company

[Scottish_Lord]

Hello all.

I am opening a branch of my security guard & patrol services company up here soon. While we will have unarmed post guards, and even armed post guards at some locations, the heart of our residential services division is the armed patrol. Mind you, this is not flashlight cop, stop or I'll yell stop again, old man with a whistle type of patrol work. It's Section 8, HUD, and high-crime apartment complex patrols. This will hopefully ward off any claims of "a nickel plated 38 is more than enough for a guard".

Our insurance company is familiar with our training and use of force curriculum. All primary duty autos have to be in .40 S&W. The shotguns have to be 12G, and rifles have been spec'd at either 7.62x39 (my favorite) or 5.56. For rifles and shotguns, I plan on equipping each patrol car with both long guns. For the sidearms, they will be issued to patrolmen. Bear in mind, I tried to keep it cheap, but knowing my men will be using these to defend their own and other people's lives, I refuse any High Point or Taurus junk.

Now I need help choosing.

For handguns, I have looked at several choices. They all fall in the $500-$560 range at a local distributor, so cost is not a problem. I've narrowed it down to the following.
- GLOCK 22
- GLOCK 23
- Smith & Wesson M&P 40
- Beretta 96FS
- Beretta PX4 Storm 40 - I know I'll be getting one of these, but I like Beretta

For shotguns, they are all in the $300-$330 range. All pump-action.
- Remington 870 short barrel/extended tube
- Mossberg 500 short barrel/extended tube
- Browning short barrel/extended tube

For rifles, I have narrowed it down to the following.
- DPMS M4 type carbine
- Century Arms 5.56 Galil Golani

What says ye? I'm really liking the M&P, 870, Galil combo myself.

 

[Golden Hound]

I recommend Special Weapons.

 

[sadp40]

i would rather have

beretta 96 .40, mossberg 590a1, RRA 16inch tactical entry carbine w/ trijicon reflex sight. i have these and have put my life and my family's life and trust to bear upon these. some will have other opinions thats why they are called opinions....

 

[dutch pirate]

Make sure you have the correct trauma plates in the vests, and at least three of them to protect your operators from .308 direct fire.

 

[average_shooter]

Boy, first reply is a burn, followed up by the pirate. You guys are quick on the draw

But I admit, I was thinking the same thing, especially at the thought of arming security guards with 7.62x39mm rifles, though I hold out hope that it was a typo and is supposed to be 7.62x51.

 

[Eric F]

Rifles? Shotguns? Private security?

IMO sir if you need more than a pistol then you need the real police department, I am familiar with the services you are offering and I see no need for you to issue Rifles or shotguns. Seems a bit far over on the Gecko45 side of the court.

After all its just

It's Section 8

not mogadishu

 

[SLCscottie]

Hhhmmm

I want to come work with you.

I prefer Double Action Only pistols.
I like the Rem and Mossberg
AR15 223 for less wall penetration, than the 7.62 X 39.

Budget will probably play too big of a part in it.

 

[NonConformist]

Guess y'all have never heard of CIS (Not CSI, cIs) here in Florida

 

[NonConformist]

Since everyone is making fu and not contributing, heres my take-

SW MP 40

Either Pump

M4 due to mag issues(availability) on the Golani


I worked for a company like that here before I started more PMC type work

From the above comments they havnt spent much time outside their moms basement or in the ghetto

At the time we were restricted to Revolvers and 12ga Pumps

The Police dont want to worry about individual complexes and they have no duty to protect anyone so theres room for companies like CIS and the OPs to fit and work w/ LE, We worked w/ the County SO all the time and even took properties at their request and CIS is growing and also has contracts w/ the Feds as well as Power Plants etc, the Port and of course section 8 housing, some of our guys were even killed in Iraq helping BlackWater and others

 

[okiebuckout]

So what does CIS stand for?

 

[Treo]

I would definetely get some shrikes for the tactical response vehicles.

Oh and the Trauma Plates were for .338 Laupa

 

[Eric F]

Since everyone is making fu and not contributing

I was serious as a heart attack, why does houseing security need rifles and shotguns? Isnt that why the police are there?

 

[novaDAK]

Oh and the Trauma Plates were for .338 Laupa

"If Plan A is to take multiple .338 shots to the back, you really need to come up with a Plan B."



And as for patrols with AR15 rifles, you're talking Pittsburgh, not Kabul.

 

[average_shooter]

"CIS" Google-Fu:

http://www.cisworldservices.org/

http://www.cissecurity.com/

 

[Prophet]

SW MP 40 or XD 40, either are good. They're the latest in plastic guns and have most of the bugs worked out that plagued earlier plastics. I cant speak directly for the MP but I can for the XD, its a very solid firearm and has a natural hand mold. When you bring the gun up to shoot the sights are already lined up for you. The interchangeable hand molds on the MP are something that I miss in the XD (I'm not sure but they may have fixed that with the XDm), not to mention the less "boxy", slightly top-heavy feel.

Either shotgun is nice (remmy to mossberg, no experience with the browning) but the thing I have found to be most annoying on the Remington is the slide release and the BB gun safety. I shoot about the same amount for my left and right hands (left-eye dominant, right hand dominant) so that was an issue for me, and its why I eventually opted for the Mossberg 500's ambidextrous safety.

I do not have much experience with semi-automatic rifles... and I dont think that it could do what a slug in a shotgun could do better and safer when considering highly populated towns and cities. I tend to believe that in Iraq and urban war, 7.62 is a superior cartridge. However, in US towns and cities I think something with less energy would be more beneficial. Backdrop is something that should ALWAYs be nagging every shooters mind, but it shouldn't be so to the point of paranoia.

DISCLAIMER; My opinion and advice is worth exactly what you're paying for it.

 

[Scottish_Lord]

No, in many cases, we are contracted for these properties because the police are too busy to respond, or in some cases will not respond there. I see that many people are citing the "call the real police" line. This is not helpful. If there was not an industry for this type of service, then we would not be investing money in offering it. Also, bear in mind that this is not your standard "observe and report" style security. In these locations, if we have to call in the police, something is terribly wrong, and we have proven ourselves ineffective. I repeat, if the police have to show up, we might as well not be there. You may not see it that way, clients do, and they are the ones who pay the bills.

I appreciate the serious responses to my original question. As for the vest jokes, I have a serious response regarding vests. All of our patrolmen are required to provide and furnish a Level IIA vest. For those patrolmen who will be going into Section 8 and HUD, we ASK, but don't require, them to get a Level V trauma plate set. The AK47 is a popularly used weapon by drug dealers and associates. This can be helpful if our guys just happen to drive into an open-air drug market with lookout houses at the end of the street. For those of you who are about to tell jokes and laugh, I take it you have never been to South Brighton Heights in Pittsburgh or Jackson Ward in Richmond.

I approved 7.62x39 because I like the round and I like the AK47. I use frangible rounds, so no overpenetration. The biggest reason for rifles and shotguns is that they are there just in case we need to use them. A huge consideration of a shotgun or rifle is pucker factor. It is a well known fact to most cops that a good shotgun rack will clear the streets of thugs in a split second. The same goes for an officer deploying a carbine when the SHTF.

 

[NonConformist]

Plus on those properties Security has more power than LE in many cases, such as entering a unit etc as we are members of management staff etc

The Police cant drop people on a Property for the night, Security can be there as much as they want to pay them to be there

Its not like they're gonna tote their longarms on most night but its nice to have the tools if needed, I carried a Mossberg 500 in my POV until I became an ATO officer(anti terror officer) then it was an AR yet I still kept the shotgun as well and if we were at certain facilities then we carried longarms

Point Blank makes a nice more 'tactical'(hate that term) carrier that takes soft panels and full size rifle plates if needed

Id do payroll deduct for the vest IMO, itll help more people be able to work for you

 

[kd7nqb]

I think your over reacting. I say this as an individual who works as a member of security in a section 8 housing project. We have both armed and unarmed officers. Yet out best tools are still cell phones with 911 on speed dial.

Arming your officers fine, assuming that you never need to call the cops dead wrong. And remember if you so much as pull a weapon on somebody you damm well better call the cops so the paperwork is correct.

As far as open air drug markets, unless your contract is in Somalia I would not worry about that.

 

[Frog48]

the heart of our residential services division is the armed patrol... It's Section 8, HUD, and high-crime apartment complex patrols.

Come on, you cant be serious. They're not gonna be getting into firefights with anybody; the gang bangers and drug pushers wont be pointing guns at the security guards... they're gonna be pointing their fingers laughing at the guards.

You can give security guards all the firepower in the world... but it still doesnt change the fact that they do not have full police powers.

I repeat, if the police have to show up, we might as well not be there. You may not see it that way, clients do, and they are the ones who pay the bills.

Sounds like you encourage your employees to overstep the bounds of their authority.

 

[Scottish_Lord]

Forget I asked anything guys. I can see here that instead of simply answering the post like men, the majority either had jokes or want to tell me how to run my business. Let me get some things straight here.

- Yes, calling the cops at low level properties and guard posts is acceptable. Unarmed officers better call the cops especially. At the level we operate on, calling the cops for anything short of an all-out emergency is a failure in our services, and we will likely face contract termination. These areas are left and forgotten by public safety. If the cops were in there patrolling, I doubt the place would be so bad.

- Figuring that this board frequently discusses firearms and staying alive, I thought that some would understand the concept that when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. Oh well, I guess my guys would be glad they only have that handgun if someone with an SKS opens fire on them from a half a block away, waiting for the cops to show. At least they wouldn't be "morons".

- I guess that threatening to call 911 will really clean up a bad neighborhood. It seemed to work so well for the honest residents.

- I hear references of "this isn't Iraq/Somalia/Mogadishu". Has anyone here ever actually taken a trip to South Brighton Heights or the backside of Mt. Washington, or some areas of the Hill District in Pittsburgh? What about Jackson Ward, Whitcomb Court, or Mosby Court in Richmond? I bet if I posted pictures of both, you could not tell the difference.

- I have never once asked my employees to overstep the bound of their authority. The sad fact of the matter is that people still think that security has no authority at all. In Virginia, an armed security officer has full arrest authority on private property, except for traffic enforcement. In Pennsylvania, armed officers have certain limited criminal arrest procedures and authority. If I ever encouraged my officers to do anything illegal, I would open myself up to civil and criminal liability, and I hate lawsuits and jail.

- The original point I am getting at is that my guys are not jack-booted supercops. They will, however, be armed to protect their own life in the event that it is threatened. Calling the cops is nice, but they are really really good at photographing dead bodies.

The ignorance of most of the respondents here are astounding. As for those of you who offered a real answer, I thank you very much.

Moderator, can I get this thread closed?

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Scottish_Lord

Your situation very well may be thus, but after the whole mall SOT team excursion, it wont go well here.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

You really can't go wrong with the Glock 22 or 23

 

[Scottish_Lord]

Mall SOT? Are you referring to the ever-present Mall Ninja/Specops thread from years ago, containing this quote:

...I am the sergeant of a 3-man Rapid Tactical Response Team at one of the nation's largest shopping malls...

 

[yeti]

If you are sending 'YOUR' officers into places as bad as you describe, stop cheeping out and YOU pay for their vests, then, maybe, I could take your question as more than Son of Gecko.

 

[TCUGLOCKER]

I would go with a Glock 22 (Ease of use, maximum capacity, max barrel length).

Mossberg 12ga, Tang safety is easy for left and right-handers.

M4 style rifle, for mag interchangeability as well muscle memory since most modern military and police training translates to that weapon platform.