Issue weapons for security company

[Scottish_Lord]

I have been considering a paycheck deduction system for vest issue, as someone alluded to earlier. It all comes down to money. I can re-issue jackets, well-maintained shirts & pants, cars, and sidearms. I cannot generally do the same for someone's nasty, sweaty, custom-fit body armor. When they go, it goes. If I can't reissue it, I don't buy it. This explains why we don't provide footwear, undershirts, thermals, or anything else of that nature.

I appreciate the more positive responses. It seems the GLOCK platforms have some fans round here.

 

[theken206]

GLOCK 22, Remmy 870, DPMS M4gery

 

[Steve Raacke]

Scottish_Lord,
I have read about your company in the forums at Security Info Watch. I agree that there is a rare need for unique companies such as yours. As we often discuss in the SIW forums, there are many different uses for security from the simple Observe and Report types with little to no training to the Special Police type which hires to a higher standard and requires a more hands on approach to the job.
I wish you luck.
Regarding your original question,
I like just about any modern semiauto pistol, DA only with no safeties or hammer drops to deal with. Keep it simple. I'm a 9mm fan but have no problem with the .40 cal pistols which have become so popular.
For shotguns I'd go with the Mossburg 500. As others have pointed out the saftey and the slide release are just set up better. That said, a Rem 870 is a close second.
Rifles are a tough one. In an American city I'd worry about our thin walled construction in the section 8 housing. If it was me I'd go with either a AR-15 model (M4 type) or Ruger Mini-14. <-yes, I said it, I'm a Mini-14 owner and I carried one on the job when I worked for the state and feel it's a reliable rifle with a wooden stock which is less threatening than an Evil Black Rifle when toted around the average citizen.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
Good luck.

 

[Scottish_Lord]

Thank you, sir. The Mossberg seems to be the winner in the shotgun category, the M4 platform has stuck for me in the rifle category. As for the handguns, I will be closely evaluating the GLOCK 22 and the Smith & Wesson M&P 40. I am still getting a PX4 Storm as my duty carry, but that's just mine, and I'm a sucker for Italian Beretta's (not those crappy Brazilian ones, or the knockoffs).

In the rifle category, I was considering the new SIG 556, but at $1300, I can't justify it for general issue.

 

[Cokeman]

Get the bomb.











...or Glock 23s are good.

 

[Duke Junior]

Glock 22,870 and M4 would be my choices from your list.
Good luck in this venture.

 

[Treo]

If you're making your employees buy their own side arm I would set the parameters but let them chose a weapon that they are comfortable W.

 

[Powderman]

Come on, you cant be serious. They're not gonna be getting into firefights with anybody; the gang bangers and drug pushers wont be pointing guns at the security guards... they're gonna be pointing their fingers laughing at the guards.

If you want to see what housing projects can become, look up and research Robert Taylor Homes and Cabrini-Green housing projects in Chicago. Trust me--when the police won't even respond unless it is a life threatening emergency--and THEN only six deep or more--it's not a nice place.

Scottish Lord, I suggest the following:

1. Glock 22. Maintenance is simple, repair parts are plentiful and they can be damned accurate at pistol-caliber distances.

2. IMHO, you can't go wrong with either the Mossberg or the Remington.

3. The AR15 carbine concept is sound and practical. Much as I'd like to, I dare not attempt to use the AK as a patrol rifle. Too much negative connotation, and my Chief would kick my butt for it. Make sure you have plenty of quality magazines, and I highly recommend soft-pointed ammunition.

 

[Kragax]

Now, I live not too far from Pittsburg and have friends there so I know things can get strange. I was just curious as to what the average armed guards salary is for an operation like this? Seems like it had better be a lot.

 

[dogmush]

While I'll agree that inner cities can get pretty bad, I still think you're overgunned here. Whatever your contract says, your officers aren't sworn law enforcement. If you get into a situation that needs the kind of firepower you're talking about here you need law enforcement.

If you actually engage in a firefight in an American city, I'm certain your company will be sued by any number of NAACP/ACLU agencies. You know as well as I do, when the dust settles you will haveshot a good boy that just happened to be walking by on his way to violin practice. And your officers won't have a LEO's immunity. From what you're describing you're trying to set up a domestic Blackwater, and I don't think there's actually that much of a market for private shooters no matter how bad the city is. Your money would be better spent on a pistol and armor for your officers and cars. An uparmoured suburban would be more useful, and less open to liability, then an M4.

That being said, if you want to go the private army route your choice of weapons is secondary to the training and practice your officers get with them. Buy whatever you can get a deal on, and use the rest of your budget on training to limit colateral damage.

The AK47 is a popularly used weapon by drug dealers and associates

No, it's not. Sorry. I'm not even sure a AK type semi is that popular. I'd need to see more evidance then a DMX movie.

 

[nambu1]

The Glocks are a good choice. The Barettas are heavy, and also is a good choice. The mossburg is a great shotgun, that is why I own several of them. You cant go wrong with a Galil.

 

[Eric F]

Ok now I see this is not so much a joke and more reality than what I was lead to beleive in the op.

pistols and shot guns, what ever you want, but rifle is a whole new ball game.

High/dense poplulations are no place for rifles with out caution. 223 is great but even these can go hay wire from time to time. Over penatration is an inherant risk with any rifle that will be effective. Might I sugest pistol claiber carbines? 9mm ar maybe? Besides whats the farthest LEO engagement going to be "most" of the time? 75 feet down a long hall way maybe? 100 yards across a parking lot? I think an 223 ar might be too much. This issue has been duked out over and over in the self defense section might look there for more info.

 

[Bubbles]

For handguns, I have looked at several choices. They all fall in the $500-$560 range at a local distributor, so cost is not a problem. I've narrowed it down to the following.
- GLOCK 22
- GLOCK 23
- Smith & Wesson M&P 40
- Beretta 96FS
- Beretta PX4 Storm 40 - I know I'll be getting one of these, but I like Beretta

I have no experience with S&W handguns. Of the others, I'd give Beretta the nod over Glock, but that's just a personal preference.

For shotguns, they are all in the $300-$330 range. All pump-action.
- Remington 870 short barrel/extended tube
- Mossberg 500 short barrel/extended tube
- Browning short barrel/extended tube

Either Remington or Mossberg.

For rifles, I have narrowed it down to the following.
- DPMS M4 type carbine
- Century Arms 5.56 Galil Golani

In a high-density urban environment, is this a wise caliber choice? I know of two overpenetration incidents in Virginia involving the .223 round (both rifles were M4's) which means there are probably more since they don't tend to make the news. There's a lawsuit against VSP pending over one of them - a woman in a house 50 yards away from the site of the raid was hit.

I'd lean toward the MP5 in .40 (to keep a common caliber w/ the handguns) or similar if you need a subgun/rifle type firearm and want to minimize overpenetration. Yeah, I know HK's motto...

 

[contenderman]

Hmmmm???

> Armed Security
> Sec. 8 Housing
> Sidearms, plus high power rifles and shotguns in vehicles

You have other operations, your fully licensed, and your people are trained and certified ...

And ...

You go on an internet forum and ask for help in selecting makes and models of guns to purchase for your operation

It do make one wonder ... it certainly do

 

[deputy tom]

I'd go talk to the Chief of the Housing Authority Police and see what they are using.Sounds like the same security requirements as what you are entering into.YMMV.tom.

PS where is South Brighton Heights relating to McClure Ave in Brighton Heights? tom.

 

[inherentical]

Don't forget duct tape for the extra trauma plate.

 

[bukijin]

Glocks are standard for security here (as a defensive firearm) because they are cheap, reliable and have a simple manual of arms. I assume we are talking about uniformed work - open carry - so go for the longest barrel. Is there any history of guards actually using a shotgun or rifle on duty ? I would venture that radios, flashlights, phones, vehicles etc. would be better to spend money on.

 

[Creade]

Quote:
"
The AK47 is a popularly used weapon by drug dealers and associates"

No, it's not. Sorry. I'm not even sure a AK type semi is that popular. I'd need to see more evidance then a DMX movie.

Im not sure how much evidence youd like, but this is a headline from yesterdays paper.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/10/ak47_and_ammo_seized_in_drug_b.html

 

[NonConformist]

Im glad to see a few serious replies, and AFA police powers the only thing LE has over Security is arrest powers other than that we have more options on a property than they do

If someone is stupid and wont comply w/ the rules af management we can have them evicted and thus making the property safer, and keep the BS to a minimum

Y;'all should realize LE isnt all that and have NO duty to protect you and wont even roll onto some properties w/o major backup

 

[elChupacabra!]

This is freaking incredible!

In these locations, if we have to call in the police, something is terribly wrong, and we have proven ourselves ineffective. I repeat, if the police have to show up, we might as well not be there.

God in Heaven - by the time your PRIVATE security guards draw down on somebody with a 7.62x39 AK - something IS terribly wrong and you are GOING to want the police there IMMEDIATELY!

For those patrolmen who will be going into Section 8 and HUD, we ASK, but don't require, them to get a Level V trauma plate set.

That's some pretty high powered armor, considering that NIJ standards only go up to Level IV...

The AK47 is a popularly used weapon by drug dealers and associates. This can be helpful if our guys just happen to drive into an open-air drug market with lookout houses at the end of the street.

I thought you were talking about apartment (project) security...

Who is paying your guys to guard the various "open-air drug markets with lookout houses at the end of the street?" Must be one hell of an apartment complex.

A huge consideration of a shotgun or rifle is pucker factor. It is a well known fact to most cops that a good shotgun rack will clear the streets of thugs in a split second. The same goes for an officer deploying a carbine when the SHTF.

This is maybe the best line yet

- Beretta PX4 Storm 40 - I know I'll be getting one of these, but I like Beretta

So... you don't even own a handgun yet... you will be getting one "soon?"

This is freaking amazing Thank you for revealing yourself once again and letting us bask in your glory, Gecko45

 

[ProShooter]

Glock 23

Rem 870

Beretta CX4 rifle, .40 cal

 

[30 cal slob]

Well, i'm going on the assumption the OP is being sincere.

I'll pass on what I've heard from Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn while training with them.

Avoid any Glocks in .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They have well-documented kaboom issues, and weird frame flex issues. For example some Glocks in .40 and .45 ACP won't function with a light attached to the rail.

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

I think you'd be well served with say, a S&W M&P .40.

I'm personally a fan of the 9mm.

Having received some rudimentary training in shoothouse low-light CQB (both solo defensive and multi-element offensive clearing drils) ...I will say there is a place for the 5.56 mm carbine with red dot and weapon-mounted white light. The carbine shines with the long-shot, and using white light doesn't mean you're shooting one-handed, as you would sometimes with a pistol.

Just make sure you buy quality. Colt, Noveske, and Lewis Machine & Tool come to mind.

Again, I'll probably get flamed for this chart, but I offer this for your perusal.

 

[Scottish_Lord]

This is freaking incredible!

Quote:
In these locations, if we have to call in the police, something is terribly wrong, and we have proven ourselves ineffective. I repeat, if the police have to show up, we might as well not be there.

God in Heaven - by the time your PRIVATE security guards draw down on somebody with a 7.62x39 AK - something IS terribly wrong and you are GOING to want the police there IMMEDIATELY!

IF it gets to the point where these things have to be actually deployed, the police will be on the way, however my aims are twofold:
1 - Deter a higher display of force by armed criminals
2 - Keep patrolmen alive until the police get there

Quote:
For those patrolmen who will be going into Section 8 and HUD, we ASK, but don't require, them to get a Level V trauma plate set.
That's some pretty high powered armor, considering that NIJ standards only go up to Level IV...

I made a typo. Sue me.

Quote:
The AK47 is a popularly used weapon by drug dealers and associates. This can be helpful if our guys just happen to drive into an open-air drug market with lookout houses at the end of the street.

I thought you were talking about apartment (project) security...

I am. Apartment complexes have streets.

Who is paying your guys to guard the various "open-air drug markets with lookout houses at the end of the street?" Must be one hell of an apartment complex.

The owners of the complexes are usually large real estate ventures and local governments. Some of these areas encompass several city blocks.

Quote:
A huge consideration of a shotgun or rifle is pucker factor. It is a well known fact to most cops that a good shotgun rack will clear the streets of thugs in a split second. The same goes for an officer deploying a carbine when the SHTF.

This is maybe the best line yet

Because you know it's true.

Quote:
- Beretta PX4 Storm 40 - I know I'll be getting one of these, but I like Beretta

So... you don't even own a handgun yet... you will be getting one "soon?"

I currently own a Beretta 96D, and I have a S&W 3913 BUG. Is it OK with you if I want a new duty auto? I'm just checking. I'd hate to offend you.

This is freaking amazing Thank you for revealing yourself once again and letting us bask in your glory, Gecko45

Who?

 

[elChupacabra!]

Originally Posted by elChupacabra
Quote:

A huge consideration of a shotgun or rifle is pucker factor. It is a well known fact to most cops that a good shotgun rack will clear the streets of thugs in a split second. The same goes for an officer deploying a carbine when the SHTF.

This is maybe the best line yet

Because you know it's true.

AAAHHHHH HAHAHAHAHA you are KILLING me!

 

[elChupacabra!]

and

The owners of the complexes are usually large real estate ventures and local governments

I was under the impression that "local governments" already had people on the payroll to run patrols... they are even armed sometimes, drive cars with flashing lights... and one other thing about them... what was it? Oh! I remember! They are SWORN PEACE OFFICERS... that's it