Father Knows Best
Member
MN River Rat for President!
JBT's in my neighborhood. Grrr!!!
- Thread starter Tom Servo
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"Quote: People that DRAW a weapon after being confronted by a robber or rapist etc., are generally LEFT ALONE when the BG realizes they are armed. The openly armed person is not the one to be shot first."
All I got to say is that if you walk in on an armed robbery in progress, and you attempt to unholster your weapon in full view of the robber, and think you're not going to be shot, you are very badly mistaken. And that is just MY opinion.
All I got to say is that if you walk in on an armed robbery in progress, and you attempt to unholster your weapon in full view of the robber, and think you're not going to be shot, you are very badly mistaken. And that is just MY opinion.
iiibdsiil
Member
That might be true, but if you are already in the store, and buddy walks in with his "glock 9" under his shirt and sees you standing there, open carrying, he is probably going to at least wait for you to leave. Like I said, I don't believe that all these people that commit armed robbery are really looking to get into a shootout. I would think they would take the easier path, which would be to wait a couple seconds.
"All I got to say is that if you walk in on an armed robbery in progress, and you attempt to unholster your weapon in full view of the robber, and think you're not going to be shot, you are very badly mistaken. And that is just MY opinion."
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
It does however assume much. Such as, the bad guy noticing the gun, HIS ability to react AND shoot straight if he chooses to shoot, and MY (you were impuning MY situation in your comment, not even the common, hypothetical "average" person) abilty to react and shoot straight. You can easily say YOU may not be up to it, but to assume nobody is because you aren't is going a bit far.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
It does however assume much. Such as, the bad guy noticing the gun, HIS ability to react AND shoot straight if he chooses to shoot, and MY (you were impuning MY situation in your comment, not even the common, hypothetical "average" person) abilty to react and shoot straight. You can easily say YOU may not be up to it, but to assume nobody is because you aren't is going a bit far.
Hey guys? It doesn't matter whether open carry is, or is not, a good idea.
The actual issue is whether the police may reasonably harrass someone who is obeying the law as it is written.
Just because you don't want to do a thing yourself doesn't mean there should be a law against other people doing it. Nor does it mean that police should step outside the bounds of the law to harrass people for doing whatever it is.
Personally, I've never felt any great urge to shoot blackpowder. Does that mean that shooting blackpower firearms should be against the law? Or that police should harrass anyone who shoots blackpowder, even though shooting blackpowder is not against the law?
Careful what you wish for. You might get it.
pax
The most basic question is not what is best but who shall decide what is best. -- Thomas Sowell
The actual issue is whether the police may reasonably harrass someone who is obeying the law as it is written.
Just because you don't want to do a thing yourself doesn't mean there should be a law against other people doing it. Nor does it mean that police should step outside the bounds of the law to harrass people for doing whatever it is.
Personally, I've never felt any great urge to shoot blackpowder. Does that mean that shooting blackpower firearms should be against the law? Or that police should harrass anyone who shoots blackpowder, even though shooting blackpowder is not against the law?
Careful what you wish for. You might get it.
pax
The most basic question is not what is best but who shall decide what is best. -- Thomas Sowell
CARRY'IN
member
Never heard of "reasonable" harrassment. If it is legal then the police are either hopelessly stupid (it is an important thing to know) or they are indeed harrassing citizens and should be disciplined. Either way, the cops fulfill the stereotype ignorant bullies many people hold. But seeing as how even in the wild west, in texas no less, some of the first laws frontier towns would pass would be against open carry, I think it is a valid issue to discuss.
The "wild west" may be more diverse (or less restrictive)than indicated in the last post. Texas, Tombstone, and Dodge City had laws against carrying, but most of the rest of the west did not that I have ever heard of. Most of the Rocky Mountain states still have no laws against open carry.
bamawrx
Member
"If in fact there happen's to be a "robbery about to happen" the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot.... "
I am going to puke if I read this again.
How about giving us ONE example where an open carry person got shot first in an armed robbery. Your statement sounds similar to "if you have a gun the only thing that will happen is the bad guy will take it from you and shoot you with it"
I am going to puke if I read this again.
How about giving us ONE example where an open carry person got shot first in an armed robbery. Your statement sounds similar to "if you have a gun the only thing that will happen is the bad guy will take it from you and shoot you with it"CARRY'IN
member
I would venture the towns where there were alot of drunk cowboys shooting each other over who's hefer was prettier were the ones with laws against open carrry. I would also guess that in other places people had enough sense not to strut around amongst Christian folk with a deadly weapon strapped to their hip- not when there was no need for it anyway. So in any case- a bad cowtown or mining town, or a more peaceable community, open carry was not considered acceptable or polite I think. Just because there was no law against it does not mean it was common practice. If someone was being a nuisance and wearing their handcannons I imagine the local sheriff would do a little harrassing in the old days.
Good Valid Point !
It basically comes down to tolerance and social ecceptance in my opinion. If a person expects his fellow citizens to tolerate his or hers idea of how to live life, then they must also be tolerant of how others live.
The open carry issue is one of tolerance and social ecceptance and that's why the location of the person is part of the consideration for how they feel on the subject.
I don't know the correct answer as to how to change the social structure of an area so that open carry is more acceptable. I do know that when I walk into a grocery store in most area's of Arizona , with a gun showing , I won't get a second glance from hardly anybody. If I would do the same in my home town here in Minnesota, I wouldn't be at all surprised to be greeted by the local LEO's before I left the store.
It will take a person smarter than I to figure out wether open carry in some area's is the right or wrong answer to change the social ecceptance.
And while one may not care if it is acceptable , you should know that your neighbors also have the right to vote . So you should also take that into account .
CARRY'IN
member
My problem with open carry is parking lot disagreements (as one example). Someone cuts you off in the parking lot and takes your spot and you have words with them (and your .45 is concealed) that is one thing, but any kind of argument or altercation with guns displayed is another. It makes people nervous- and I dont blame them cause two armed men arguing makes me nervous to. Not to mention the fact that if I am unarmed, I really dont want a stranger with a gun on his belt getting in my face. And dont tell me everyone would have perfect manners just because they are carry'in.
JBT's? Sorry...
A few observations:
1) Ridiculous to compare the actions of these cops to totalitarian police-state goons. JBT's beat you to death in the dungeon of the Lubyanka, or send you off to Siberia as slave labor to be worked to death in a coal mine. These cops were misguided, misinformed, and rude, and they abused their authority by hassling someone. That's bad, but not quite as bad as what real JBT's do.
2) That said, the conduct of the officers was wrong and unprofessional. They should be subject to some kind of disciplinary action and should also be required to learn the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. They should also be required to practice proper safe gun handling.
3) The open carrying guy (we'll call him OCG) is a fool. Yes, apparently, under Georgia law what he was doing was perfectly legal, and like most people on THR, I agree that open carry should be legal and it should be accepted. But obviously, in this part of Georgia, there is a discrepancy between what is right and legal, and what the actual prevailing conditions are.
It does often occur in life that there are such discrepancies between "correct" and "actual." When such discrepancies occur, we have two choices: 1) undertake effective political action to change the acutal prevailing conditions until they are in alignment with what is legal and right, or else 2) comply with the actual prevailing conditions. OCG did neither, and accomplished nothing.
If OCG's goal was to protest against the discrepancy between Georgia law and the actual conditions, to undertake a political action, to raise awareness of this issue and win people's opnions to his side, and to change the way things are, he went about it all wrong. The people in Ohio who organized an open-carry march are an example of how to do it right.
If OCG's goal was to go to the 7-11 and get an Icee, he should have made himself aware of the local conditions and either concealed his weapon, or else not carried.
In actuality, all he did was buy himself a lot of hassle, which although it is not ideal, legal, right, or correct, is a forseeable consequence of carrying openly in a community where open carry is not accepted. If his aim was to get an Icee, he made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. If his goal was to make a political statement, he did a very poor job of it. If his goal was to go about his business with the ability to defend himself, he did it in a way that was forseeably likely to generate a hassle.
A few observations:
1) Ridiculous to compare the actions of these cops to totalitarian police-state goons. JBT's beat you to death in the dungeon of the Lubyanka, or send you off to Siberia as slave labor to be worked to death in a coal mine. These cops were misguided, misinformed, and rude, and they abused their authority by hassling someone. That's bad, but not quite as bad as what real JBT's do.
2) That said, the conduct of the officers was wrong and unprofessional. They should be subject to some kind of disciplinary action and should also be required to learn the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. They should also be required to practice proper safe gun handling.
3) The open carrying guy (we'll call him OCG) is a fool. Yes, apparently, under Georgia law what he was doing was perfectly legal, and like most people on THR, I agree that open carry should be legal and it should be accepted. But obviously, in this part of Georgia, there is a discrepancy between what is right and legal, and what the actual prevailing conditions are.
It does often occur in life that there are such discrepancies between "correct" and "actual." When such discrepancies occur, we have two choices: 1) undertake effective political action to change the acutal prevailing conditions until they are in alignment with what is legal and right, or else 2) comply with the actual prevailing conditions. OCG did neither, and accomplished nothing.
If OCG's goal was to protest against the discrepancy between Georgia law and the actual conditions, to undertake a political action, to raise awareness of this issue and win people's opnions to his side, and to change the way things are, he went about it all wrong. The people in Ohio who organized an open-carry march are an example of how to do it right.
If OCG's goal was to go to the 7-11 and get an Icee, he should have made himself aware of the local conditions and either concealed his weapon, or else not carried.
In actuality, all he did was buy himself a lot of hassle, which although it is not ideal, legal, right, or correct, is a forseeable consequence of carrying openly in a community where open carry is not accepted. If his aim was to get an Icee, he made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. If his goal was to make a political statement, he did a very poor job of it. If his goal was to go about his business with the ability to defend himself, he did it in a way that was forseeably likely to generate a hassle.
"I would venture the towns where there were alot of drunk cowboys shooting each other over who's hefer was prettier were the ones with laws against open carrry. I would also guess that in other places people had enough sense not to strut around amongst Christian folk with a deadly weapon strapped to their hip- not when there was no need for it anyway. So in any case- a bad cowtown or mining town, or a more peaceable community, open carry was not considered acceptable or polite I think. Just because there was no law against it does not mean it was common practice. If someone was being a nuisance and wearing their handcannons I imagine the local sheriff would do a little harrassing in the old days."
Really don't mean to come off as being so critical, but this is a lot of surmising.
Not sure what the "Christian folk" part means, as many of the people I know that carry, open or concealed, are Christian. Would you be implying that there is something unChristian about carrying a gun? In the days past, people would be coming or going from town, and where a person would leave their gun, just to avoid distressing a town person of fragile sensibilities, is unknown to me. At home 15 miles away? And ride/drive the trail to town unarmed? Sitting looped over the saddle horn on your horse? My understanding, from photos, and historical information, is that certainly not everyone carried full time, and some never carried, (at least openly), but it was not unusual to see people carrying in town in any frontier town.
Arguing with someone in a parking lot is not a good idea in any event, being openly armed has little bearing on it, as people with the inclination to shoot someone over a parking lot dispute may be armed covertly. I've lived in places where open carry was accepted pretty well, and in the past have carried openly for a number of years as a matter of course. Yes, some people being armed bothers me, but that is a matter of the individual, not the general open carry concept.
Really don't mean to come off as being so critical, but this is a lot of surmising.
Not sure what the "Christian folk" part means, as many of the people I know that carry, open or concealed, are Christian. Would you be implying that there is something unChristian about carrying a gun? In the days past, people would be coming or going from town, and where a person would leave their gun, just to avoid distressing a town person of fragile sensibilities, is unknown to me. At home 15 miles away? And ride/drive the trail to town unarmed? Sitting looped over the saddle horn on your horse? My understanding, from photos, and historical information, is that certainly not everyone carried full time, and some never carried, (at least openly), but it was not unusual to see people carrying in town in any frontier town.
Arguing with someone in a parking lot is not a good idea in any event, being openly armed has little bearing on it, as people with the inclination to shoot someone over a parking lot dispute may be armed covertly. I've lived in places where open carry was accepted pretty well, and in the past have carried openly for a number of years as a matter of course. Yes, some people being armed bothers me, but that is a matter of the individual, not the general open carry concept.
erh
Member
Been carrying here for several years; it never occured to me that I would want people to know (or see) that. I guess it's just me... In any case those LEO's werecorrect in their coarse of action; although the "Bully" stuff sucked for sure! Fortunately, I've really only met cool cops in Georgia thus far.
44and45
Member In Memoriam
Not a good idea to open carry in todays society, todays cops who think like ATF and do their bidding will jump on your butt every time.
Most cops are not our friends in RKBA.
Keep it out of sight until you need it. In the event trouble crops up, surprise the bad boogerman by filling him full of holes that leak profusely.
Jim
Most cops are not our friends in RKBA.
Keep it out of sight until you need it. In the event trouble crops up, surprise the bad boogerman by filling him full of holes that leak profusely.
Jim
NineseveN
member
Oh god, not the "If you OC and a robber comes in" argument again...did Feinstein teach you all that? Supposition without fact? I echo the request for some proof that this happens.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
CARRY'IN,
Tamara has been known to open carry. Do you think it might be a testosterone thing with her?
Oh, open carry without a permit was legal in Georgia until passage of the concealed license permit enabling statutes back in the '70's. Just as the blood in the streets scenarios of the anti's don't conform to reality...neither does the hysteria over open carry proposed by some here have any congruence with almost two hundred and fifty years of open carry in Georgia.
But, continue, don't let me confuse you with facts or logic.
Tamara has been known to open carry. Do you think it might be a testosterone thing with her?
Oh, open carry without a permit was legal in Georgia until passage of the concealed license permit enabling statutes back in the '70's. Just as the blood in the streets scenarios of the anti's don't conform to reality...neither does the hysteria over open carry proposed by some here have any congruence with almost two hundred and fifty years of open carry in Georgia.
But, continue, don't let me confuse you with facts or logic.
CARRY'IN
member
OK. I will go on. I dont want people walking around with guns on their hips. No good reason for it. It is not 1870 in indian territory, nor is it the African veldt. Very few people want to see it, and when they do it turns them off about guns and thus removes support for RKBA. Most nine year old boys would agree that open carry is a good idea but I would bet support dwindles with maturity. It is the year 2005; a room full of people with guns displayed is a freak show- a room full of people with concealed weapons is a room full of people.
Flyboy
Member
Well good for you. I suppose we ought to all change what we want to do and adjust our behavior to suit what you want, right?
Mmmm, gotta love that liberal tolerance.
CARRY'IN
member
My liberal tolerance makes more sense than your conservative genius.
NineseveN
member
Why, did the gun rob the person? Because it seems to me like you're engaging in less-than-useful extrapolation on that one. The gun did not rob anyone. What if one was robbed by a gym-nut from Muscle Beach? Should large, muscular people then stay in doors so that everyone is comfortable?
And going back to one of your previous posts...would you start an argument over a parking spot if you were carrying concealed? That's a bad move, and I wouldn't want you carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise. But I will support and defend your right to do so, even though you having one makes [me] uncomfortable.
Most people of maturity don't start arguments or antagonize strangers anyway. And when you are carrying, you shouldn't be getting in anyone's face. Go find another space, otherwise you're just asking to provoke the wrong person over something that was never truly yours and possibly having it spiral out of control where you have to draw on them and end their life. You see a gun on their hip, you'd think twice I'd bet. If you didn't, you truly are not fit to carry in any manner. Just my opinion of course.
I did have someone's rotweiler jump out of their truck and take a run at me. I spun around and drew the trusty HK and the dog kinda stopped and looked at me. The owner then threw himself on top of the dog. In that sort of parking lot scenario, I don't think it would have mattered if one was CCW or open.
I don't carry open except at work. I probably would not normally carry open if I could. I live in a state where it is not allowed by law. I carry concealed basically whenever I am awake and not in bed or the shower. But if people want to do it, great for them if it is legal.
And going back to one of your previous posts...would you start an argument over a parking spot if you were carrying concealed? That's a bad move, and I wouldn't want you carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise. But I will support and defend your right to do so, even though you having one makes [me] uncomfortable.
Most people of maturity don't start arguments or antagonize strangers anyway. And when you are carrying, you shouldn't be getting in anyone's face. Go find another space, otherwise you're just asking to provoke the wrong person over something that was never truly yours and possibly having it spiral out of control where you have to draw on them and end their life. You see a gun on their hip, you'd think twice I'd bet. If you didn't, you truly are not fit to carry in any manner. Just my opinion of course.
I did have someone's rotweiler jump out of their truck and take a run at me. I spun around and drew the trusty HK and the dog kinda stopped and looked at me. The owner then threw himself on top of the dog. In that sort of parking lot scenario, I don't think it would have mattered if one was CCW or open.
I don't carry open except at work. I probably would not normally carry open if I could. I live in a state where it is not allowed by law. I carry concealed basically whenever I am awake and not in bed or the shower. But if people want to do it, great for them if it is legal.
NineseveN
member
Oops, typo. Meant city. Pittsburgh has or had laws on the books prohibiting Open Carry. Philly too as I recall it. I just moved to Johnstown, would be interesting to know though here. As I remember it, the wording in the actual law only aplies to Concealed Carry (in a car requires CCW permit too) but there is nothing about open carry there. Hmmm.
HonorsDaddy
Member
Carry'in
What if I dont want to see homosexuals walking around holding hands?
What if i dont want to see Christians walking around wearing a cross openly?
What if i dont want to see a Democrat driving around with a "Kerry '04" bumper sticker?
Does what I dont want to see count as much as what you dont want to see? If not, WHY not?
What if I dont want to see homosexuals walking around holding hands?
What if i dont want to see Christians walking around wearing a cross openly?
What if i dont want to see a Democrat driving around with a "Kerry '04" bumper sticker?
Does what I dont want to see count as much as what you dont want to see? If not, WHY not?
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