Jihadist caught near Chicago, planned grenade attacks on shoppers.

[Deanimator]

No, it was a condescending dig at those in our community who think that because they carry a gun they are the last line of defense between civilization and anarchy and generally reinforce the stereotypr the antis try to portray us as a bunch of uneducated, unsophisticated, trigger happy bumpkins who live in homes that look like bunkers, wear camouflage clothing and marry our cousins.

You seem to be the only one here portraying gunowners in that light.

Let me suggest that this is because you live in the same state as the wouldbe perpetrator, a state which ENFORCES a DUTY to be a victim of violent crime, frequently with a VENGEANCE.

As originally described by you, there was NO potential for anything besides the terrorist killing HIMSELF among others, with fragments of a grenade and of any receptacle in which he placed it. And I will stand by that assessment all day long. All you've done is to claim he could do it, without any plausible mechanism for doing so. If for whatever reason you decline to justify your claim, you should do everyone the courtesy of withdrawing it.

But then by all appearances, the reference to garbage cans was merely a device by which you could badmouth those whom you resent because they have rights you don't possess. If that's how you really feel, you should just come out and say so.

 

[sicario103]

If there were so many "real suicidal extremists" in North America, I'm quite sure they would have been doing attacks left and right already. What one should be looking at are extremist supporters that collect and send money to them...

We should not change our lifestyle upside down like avoiding malls, sports events or whatever because that would be a sort of victory for them....

 

[Manedwolf]

We should not change our lifestyle upside down like avoiding malls, sports events or whatever because that would be a sort of victory for them....

It's decades too late for that. A long time ago, someone getting hostile in a public venue would be met with either fists or guns, depending on what they did.

Now they'd be met with mostly shrieking, running and hiding people. Sheep.

I mean, look what just happened in Chicago. One gunman on the 38th floor of a building, and people in cafes on the ground floor were being told "Run, run, run!" ...by a security guard!

 

[real_name]

The real desired effect is that our economy tanks, that is how they can truly beat us.
That is why GWB asked us to go shopping on 9.12.01, rather than form neighborhood watches, support groups or volunteer assistance to the local PD.

 

[Deanimator]

I mean, look what just happened in Chicago. One gunman on the 38th floor of a building, and people in cafes on the ground floor were being told "Run, run, run!" ...by a security guard!

I saw that too. It must be a hoax though. After all, there's "gun control" in Chicago...

 

[GoRon]

To hear you tell it, he'd kill HIMSELF with the FIRST grenade.

Ironically this is what my first thought was when I heard the report on the radio.

He is a disaffected Muslim guy who wanted to hitch his wagon to the jihad train. He sounds like he isn't that bright and may very well have blown himself up.

This guy was ripe for the picking by some terrorist types but the Feds got him first.

Good Job.

Let me suggest that this is because you live in the same state as the would be perpetrator, a state which ENFORCES a DUTY to be a victim of violent crime, frequently with a VENGEANCE.

While I share your irritation with the state of affairs in Illinois your continual bashing of our state is getting tiresome. You left, good for you. Those of us who are still here will slog it out as best we can. At least try and be light and humorous about it like El Tejon.

 

[Spreadfire Arms]

let me say that the IRA in the 80's and 90's had been making trash can bombs in Great Britain, so this idea has already been used quite effectively to terrorize the citizens of a modern society.

i don't think Jeff White was trying to be condescending towards CCW holders. i think the point he's making is what can a CCW holder do to prevent this sort of bombing from occurring besides shooting the bomber once he is identified? granted, yes, it is better than not having a gun if you do happen to locate him, but that makes for a bad situation. if this bomber is planting explosives in crowded shopping malls then consider your background when firing. i wouldn't be shooting rounds in a crowded shopping mall unless it was absolutely necessary. now that doesn't mean that it would or wouldn't be necessary, i suppose that changes on every situation and you could "what-if" it do death.

i believe alot of terrorism happens with alot of pre-planning. alot of plots have unfolded, like 9/11, because of existent vulnerabilities in, or a total lack of, security measures.

it is not likely that any shopping mall will implement screening like an airport, because that means people would only shop elsewhere because it is more convenient. it is also not unreasonable for someone to be carrying large shopping bags in the mall, especially during Christmas season. heck, if someone walked away from a shopping bag in the middle of the mall, i think someone would probably try and steal it before someone reported it as a suspicious package.

i think that im going to be much more aware of people when i go to the mall though.

 

[MD_Willington]

Overwhelmingly agree with all of you.

If you have the time, read "The Teeth of the Tiger" by Tom Clancy. (I understand it is fiction, but I also noticed that in 1995, Clancy wrote a book with this insane idea that someone could steal a jetliner and ram it into the capitol building or some such impossible nonesense.)

Goes back even further than that in a book Called "Technological Terrorism", published around 1979/80... we have a copy of it in our corporate library. Non-fictional work.

 

[Deanimator]

i don't think Jeff White was trying to be condescending towards CCW holders.

And I quote:

"So are all the hero CCW holders planning on shooting anyone they find near the freaking trash can?"

If he wasn't trying to be condescending, what WAS he trying to be?

If that road got any lower, he'd need a miner's helmet with a lamp on it.

 

[sm]

Jeff and Art are making this w-a-y too difficult.

CCW Badges are for putting atop trash can lids.
Everybody knows [tm] how effective these Badges are in deterring crime.
It's twue, I learnt it on the Innernet...

 

[real_name]

I believe it was CCW permit holders not badges (purchased from the small ads in G&A magazine) that were being discussed.

 

[djpullen]

Jeff, since you are so concerned about pleasing the antis, why don't you make the ultimate pleasing sacrifice for the antis and beat your guns into plow shares? I asked in another thread of those who are so worried about what the antis think of us if it is possible to win Rosie Odonnel to our side. Jeff, when you have converted her, please come back on here and spout your rhetoric. Ask George W. Bush how well his "new tone" bs has helped his future legacy. He's bent over backwards to please his opponents and all they can do is hate him even more and oppose him more than they already were. There is a time to concede and there is a time to stand your ground. RKBA is a right and a principle. There is no compromise. Weak kneed guys like you will only further embolden them. Your "hero ccw" comment comes straight from the mouths of the antis. How many ccw holders have you ever known or heard of to overreact and start shooting the place up?

 

[horge]

Jeff, since you are so concerned about ...

A bit askew, but THAT is what bothered me about Jeff White's comments:
perhaps a bit too much concern about what the anti's would think.
Whether CCW could actually stop a terrorist attack or not is a secondary point.

That regular Americans are willing to arm up, train and be ready to try to stop any
such terrorist attack ought to be a laudable thing, not something to be so
embarrassed of! There's a lot of just talk here, but that's normal around any
other potential participation requiring risk and sacrifice.

Or maybe CCW'ers should just disarm, shriek and run, like anti's would approve,
since your vaunted law enforcement and the military are on the ball,
with 0 min 0 sec. response time, 24/7?

horge


PS: We've had our share of bombed buses, malls and cinemas.
None of those tragic locations allowed for CCW.
The supermalls here that do allow CCW on-premises, those with
indoor firing ranges, have been trouble free.
Guess there's no correlation, neh?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i must be a bad guy too

cause when i read
"All I can say is that here in Ohio, unless the mall was posted, he'd neither get very far, nor live very long." i laughed so hard my buisness partner came over to see what was so funny. and then we both laughed for a while. and we both had the same reaction as jeff. the funny thing about that is we used to be in the same buisness as jeff . albeit on the other team.

 

[seansean]

Emitt1 wrote:

CDCMJ - Fine you're a fine upstanding man of America, didn't mean to offend you, as a person. But, I've been told, perhaps its just a rumor, that your faith dictates my (an Infidel) destruction, if you are unable to convert or otherwise change my mind on my beliefs. If this is so - I'm sorry, you carry the card, Sir, and as such, (perhaps not you personally) your faith is this country's enemy. Now I'm just a simple old boy, and tend to see things in simple ways, I'm sure I'm not as highbrow as other readers of this forum, so will you please explain to me how you seperate the two camps of Muslim followers. See you later this evening when I've the time to read your reply. Thanks.
emitt1

The answer is, you separate them the same way I, as a black man, separate racists from non-racists, which I have to do on a regular basis; By their individual actions, not their faith. Radical muslims are the problem, not the muslim faith as a whole, and I think there are more than 2 types of muslims. And, I don't think Jeff White is being condescending at all. Some of you guys come across like the second coming of Wyatt Earpp and Doc Holiday with your comments; I have my Utah CCW permit; I'm not military or law enforcement, never handled a grenade, but common sense dictates that "cowboy" action would only get innocent people killed. save the shootout fantasies for video games. (zips up flame-retardant suit)

 

[Deanimator]

PS: We've had our share of bombed buses, malls and cinemas.
None of those tragic locations allowed for CCW.

You're on the real front lines.

Don't give up.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've had a CHL since Texas first started it. "Toted" since long before that, although not on an everyday basis.

So I'm in a mall. Me and umpteen hundred other people. How am I gonna know what somebody's putting in a trash can? Does anybody think I'm gonna go around watching what that guy or gal is doing, when I'm busy looking in store windows or eyeballing sweet young things? Duh?

Now, if some dude pulls out a gun and goes to shooting, I might be in a location where I could be useful. Then again, I might be on another floor or at the opposite end of the mall.

The way I read Jeff's posts, that's the sort of thing I think he meant.

I imagine that like most of us, if I could be useful, I'd try. Try is the operative word, I guess. I know I spent most of the "Charles Whitman Hour" behind a tree and later behind a two-story stone church building while directing traffic. (No available rifle/ammo)

In the US of A of RIGHT NOW, there aren't a whole bunch of CHLs in any given mall on any given day, I'd bet. RIGHT NOW, the real-world utility of us CHL folks is a woulda/coulda/shoulda. As in, very low. Nowhere near enough of us hanging around malls, mostly.

Art

 

[sm]

I was being a smart aleck.

Guns Guns Guns CCW CCW CCW are some kind of magic talisman.

These are just tools - not the only tools in the toolbox. Or at least I hope they are NOT the only ones for some.

Heck seeing a suspicious person in a mall...
Now I once worked in a mall. We had a "buddy system" between retailers.

We had a known set of BGs in the mall. About a week earlier, involved in shooting at a plain clothes detective, that worked extra security.
The word was we were the target.

We got ladies up front, with no customers in the evening, but all the men did. (different depts). I got a THE Sheriff coming in the back door with a shotgun, and one deputy...
" Hey good to see you again too, - Get the ladies in the back room somehow, just do it"

"Hey ladies, we have a nice deli tray and desserts in the back, boss just had it delivered". Here come the ladies and it was real evident with the Sheriff and a deputy with shotguns - they were not called back to eat.

Oh yeah , I get to wait on these BGs, they did come in. I decided to be a totally rude retail clerk. "My girlfriend is going to kill me, I was supposed to get off early and my boss is a jerk...blah blah blah..."
It pissed off the BGs...they were nabbed leaving the mall.
They were armed. So was I , and they did not know just around the corner where I was standing I had the Calvary, with shotguns.

Best thing might be to get family, kids, the elderly some distance.

If a trash can with a bunch of folks gathered, and your sixth sense is screaming - or you overheard the bomb/grenade word...

Yell out -
"Free Beer with a Sandwich at ____"
"Fat guy in red suit just showed up at Penny's"
"90% off at SomeStore".
"Elvis is in the building" - (I hate Elvis...it would get attention though...)

Just the folks away from that area with danger...distance is good. Then...Then the Police or whomever has less crowd to deal with doing their jobs.

Common Sense predates CCWs - doesn't it?

One cannot predict the future and the outcome of everything. One has to weigh each situation and be flexible. Think on their feet.

Yeah, one may need to stop an immediate threat - we train mindset/ software and hardware for that.

Then again we got some folks thinking a gun is some kind of magic talisman-
Cemeteries are full of dead heroes...

Then again the smart thing may be for me to get my mom out the damn mall I do not like going into anyway.
Been years, took her recently, did so to prove MY point - and she scared herself as she cannot walk well. There was some trouble, punks doing something...
Mom had to see for herself why she does not need to go, nothing there anyway.
I got what she wanted via Internet. She ordered something else over the phone.
Malls? pshaww....they and TVs disappeared tomorrow be a good thing IMO.

Fact is- we have a geriatric society, malls and these folks do not do well together.
Money is made catering to the young bunch - not the 70 + crowd.
I'm in my 50's, only damn thing made sense to me was the Eye Glass place and the place to get a plain old fashioned cup of black coffee.

Don't go to where trouble is. I do not do malls.
Don't want to get blowed up in a church - don't go to church. I don't
Don't want to get robbed at the Super Store parking lot - I do not go there either...

This ain't rocket science..

 

[horge]

Art,

I get that.
But like I said, whether CCW could actually stop a terrorist attack is a secondary issue.
Same as, whether Law enforcement can actually stop the majority of crime is secondary
an issue to the MERIT of law enforcement.

Deterrence is most of all that we've got to throw at 'em, really.
The probability --or, at least the possibility-- that there'll be heck to pay,
if they go nuts on us.



Jeff's comment, while being a dig mostly at the Walter Mitty-ish posts,
was too easily read as a dig at all CCW-holders as hero-wannabes.
Seems unfair to worry so mch about what anti's might think,
and yet be so careless about what CCW'ers might feel.

I don't want to seem all negative on Jeff. I 've learned a lot of things
from his posts, and fully expect THR'er's to correct me, should my
wording of thoughts leave something to be desired.. We are, after all,
supposed to look out for one another.

S'all.



horge

 

[Ryder]

The guy's plan was to place grenades in trash cans. I don't know how all of the CCW posse is going to figure out who is placing grenades in the can and who is throwing their wrappers from the food court away.

His plan was for those grenades to stampede people out into the parking lot where he planned to kill them with his gun. Don't worry Jeff, I'd let you arrest me afterwards.

 

[Deanimator]

Quote:
The guy's plan was to place grenades in trash cans. I don't know how all of the CCW posse is going to figure out who is placing grenades in the can and who is throwing their wrappers from the food court away.
His plan was for those grenades to stampede people out into the parking lot where he planned to kill them with his gun. Don't worry Jeff, I'd let you arrest me afterwards.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the "CCW posse" comment. That's pretty "high road" too...

Thank god none of the victims on the Long Island Railway were part of the "CCW posse" when domestic terrorist Patrick Ferguson shot the thing up. That would have only "escalated the violence".

But hey, if it takes us being willingly unarmed and helpless victims of violent crime in order to make Josh Sugarman and Mayor Bloomberg like us, I say it's worth it...

 

[thexrayboy]

Just because some Muslims are terrorists doesn't make it okay to persecute or look down on them all, just as since some gun owners are criminals it doesn't make it okay to persecute or look down on them all.

Yes that is the civilized way to look at the problem. However we must never
forget that the Koran is quite specific. True believers in Islam must convert us or kill us. It doesn't get any more simple than that. If someone tells me
they are a Muslim but do not believe in killing non Muslims he is either a liar or not a true Muslim. The Koran doesn't leave much wiggle room or interpretation.

 

[seansean]

A Letter to a Fundamental Teacher (author unknown)

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual clean- liness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8.Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

So, xray: using your logic, does that mean that, if you don't do exactly what the bible says, you're not a true christian?

 

[Kaylee]

well, that's about enough of that.