Jim's Pawn & Gun Jobbery's firearms license in danger

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According to this article, we should shut down the:

FBI
Bureau of Prisons
National Park Service
DEA
Customs

After all, those agencies are responsible for the loss of over 1000 firearms that have still not been found.
 
My Karate instructor worked at Jim's when I was stationed at Pope AFB in the early 1990's. I don't know if he's still there or not. Sounds like I need to write to him. Stupid BATF, no doughnut!

BlkHawk73, call up the Tinman, you need to find a heart...
 
80 mistakes is a lot. FFL records are supposed to be exact. It isn't rocket science and it is the job of the employees to handle and record all transactions properly as per the law. In fact, it is anything but rocket science, but it does require attention to detail. Back in the 70s and 80s, the most such mistakes found at our stores was 3 and we managed quite a few 100% problem free records inspections. Of course, we didn't let a gun matter span multiple days either. At the end of each business day, all gun transactions had to be completed in total as per the bookwork.
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Glad you spoke up. I have known a number of people who have had to keep very detailed professional records. Pharmacists for example, and anyone dealing with hazardous wastes. I had a friend once who was an exterminator, and had to keep very exact records on some of the stuff he used.

Lots and lots of folks have to keep exact records.

But every time a gun shop gets in trouble, they want a lot of public sympathy. I feel badly if one screwey employee screws up a gun shop. But outrageous cases of horrible ATF abuse in fact always seem to follow years of incompetence - that's not one employee.

Try being a pharmacy with 10 years of a pattern of improper narcotics record keeping. You wouldn't be looking at losing your license - you'd be looking at jail time.

I don't care if great grand-pappy bought grandpa his first shotgun back at the store just before the Civil War - keeping accurate records is part of the cost of doing business. There a plenty of gun shops that pay the price to do it right. Should we be up in arms because somebody cuts corners and gets spanked? So he can sell cheaper than someone who's got higher costs because they are doing the job right?

Mike
 
Ironic how the ATF expects everyone to be so perfect with their recordkeeping....

After a five month delay in my license, after several repeated phone calls and playing run around on the phone,they "lost" my License in Atlanta, apparently it had gotten shoved aside and forgot about for a few months. But of course if I made one mistake in my books, you know I would hear about it.
 
Mike you nailed it for me, that said Sure I agree he is a nice guy, but if you hire non-attentive people you end up with problems, A lot of you said "associated with felons" Well they SOLD TO FELONS, unless the NICS was busted that day that should have never happened. Sad to here oh yeah he got warnings too, does that say something I know I was running a gun store and got an ATF warning I would fix the problem in a micro-second. Simple mistakes (ATF: Y/N is yes or no got it?) should be forgotten but repeated severe mistakes (selling to felons, recording sales later rather than now) need some action before something bad happens.

You all may now rebuttal me. Thank you.
 
I'm surprised to see BATFE apologists in here. I wasn't around, but correct me if I'm wrong. In the early 60s you could buy a firearm anywhere. No paperwork. No incompetent tax ninjas sniffing over every serial number, time, date, and checkbox on a form. You could buy 'em through the mail. I'm unaware of any measurable crime-trending which attributes ANY benefit to society resulting from these gun-toting bean-counters crawling up dealer's butts with microscopes.

Abolish the BATFE. Let them go do something that actually benefits society.
 
"I'm surprised to see BATFE apologists in here."

Who's apologizing? The law has changed since those fabled days when I was a teenager. Do you whine when you have to fill out a form to register a car or apply for a credit card?

Everybody knows the law has changed. The gun shops know the law has changed, it's only been how many decades? There are forms to be filled out and everybody knows they need to be done properly. You, me, the gun stores, everybody. What's the big deal, it's not like it's 1/10th as complicated as an income tax form.

If they're smart enough to order guns, meet the delivery person and open the boxes, they should be sharp enough to tell if all the little boxes have been filled in with readable answers.

John
 
Several other professions "paper work" mistakes don't get you shut down, you go to jail.

I've worked in a FFL( in ca, the paper work is not hard, nor is it hard to keep track of inventory.

If you can't fallow the laws that govern your biz, you should not be in biz.
 
TaB said:
If you can't fallow the laws that govern your biz, you should not be in biz.
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That is the whole point. The bar is set so high that over time nobody can follow the rules (not laws) perfectly. The BATF's end game appears to be putting *all* FFL's out of business.

Bob
 
But you say that like it's a good thing, JohnBT.

You can't even buy a car cash anymore without feds climbing into your business. Control control control. Forms forms forms. Justifying all this crap because it's "the law of the land" doesn't make it good, nor right. Especially when it infringes upon a "right endowed by our creator."
 
That is the whole point. The bar is set so high that over time nobody can follow the rules (not laws) perfectly. The BATF's end game appears to be putting *all* FFL's out of business.

Bob
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One I worked for was ( and still is) in biz for over 40 years, changed hands twice, never had one prob with the ATF, very large volume store.



Lots of professions 1 mistake is enough to put you out of that biz for good.

I know in mine( general contractor, with hazmat) If I'm working on a house and a flake of paint containing lead comes flying off and I don't contain it, I get fined 50k( home owners its 45k), lose my hazmat/lead abatement cert for life and will have a hearing on rather or not I lose my GC. Also as Gross polluter If I were to lose track of Can, its big fines and I lose my gross polluter statis.( which would put me out of biz) Hell if a lable falls and I'm inspected by the EPA or Firemarshel, same thing would happen.

So I'm crying a river over some one that made 80 mistakes and lost his FFL.
 
I'm surprised to see BATFE apologists in here. I wasn't around, but correct me if I'm wrong. In the early 60s you could buy a firearm anywhere. No paperwork. No incompetent tax ninjas sniffing over every serial number, time, date, and checkbox on a form. You could buy 'em through the mail. I'm unaware of any measurable crime-trending which attributes ANY benefit to society resulting from these gun-toting bean-counters crawling up dealer's butts with microscopes.
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That's because there is a change in crime, gone are the days where you knew your neighbors and the corner store had 5 cent hershey's bars, crime, poverty, and a whole host of other things (not guns) have caused us to have these laws, even in the early 30's you would have bank robbers who when leaving would hold the door open if the was a lady coming in or leaving, We cant go back to "no NCIS checks" crime is too heavy these day's for it we need the ATF (at least until someone can come up with a practical solution (Death Penalty for all murders ain't happening either) I'm all ears).

Yes, mistakes happen and small errors should be forgotten but continued glaring errors need to be stopped and sorted out.
 
I'm not convinced crime's all that much higher. Is it really? I'm not refuting your point, I'm legitimately asking. Is it? Do you have any data sources / references? Do you have anything that correlates NCIS and ATF paper-whipping with any influence on crime trending in any direction?

Was there a drop in crime in 1934? 68? 94? Has anything the BATFE's ever done resulted in any change in crime rates?
 
TAB wrote
"Several other professions "paper work" mistakes don't get you shut down, you go to jail.

I've worked in a FFL( in ca, the paper work is not hard, nor is it hard to keep track of inventory.

If you can't fallow the laws that govern your biz, you should not be in biz."


According to the BATFE, your grammer and spelling would be cause to lose your licence, and possibly go to jail, after spending all your savings on legal fees. :eek:
 
TAB wrote
"Several other professions "paper work" mistakes don't get you shut down, you go to jail.

I've worked in a FFL( in ca, the paper work is not hard, nor is it hard to keep track of inventory.

If you can't fallow the laws that govern your biz, you should not be in biz."


According to the BATFE, your grammer and spelling would be cause to lose your licence, and possibly go to jail, after spending all your savings on legal fees.
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this from the guy with a run-on sentence.
 
The BATFE considers abbreviations to be an error. If you put "Ave." as an address instead of "Avenue" or "FL" instead of "Florida" the BATFE considers this an error worth shutting you down over. Tell me how that is an error that increases the chance of criminals committing crime.

As far as pharmacies being required to have zero errors: They do not. We had a recent inspection of our paperwork (they went back three years) and there were numerous paperwork errors. The hit us for using an "x" in a check box instead of a "check" and they also hit us for clerical errors in our narcotics log. It happens. There is NOT ONE flawless industry out there.
 
Having bought a couple of firearms from Jim's this past year, I can state that they checked and double checked all forms at the time of my purchase for correctness and completeness IAW the latest federal 4473 guidance.
 
I'm not convinced crime's all that much higher. Is it really? I'm not refuting your point, I'm legitimately asking. Is it? Do you have any data sources / references? Do you have anything that correlates NCIS and ATF paper-whipping with any influence on crime trending in any direction?

Was there a drop in crime in 1934? 68? 94? Has anything the BATFE's ever done resulted in any change in crime rates?
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Nope,

It makes crime worse, that wasn't my point my point is crime and anti lies has gotten so prevalent in the media (.22 can go through 5 houses 12 cars and a concrete wall!!!) it wont ever go back to "no license FFL's" not in my lifetime at least, does the ATF need to be reformed....Yes, that was Clinton's fault by the way for this "crackdown", are we going to get to a point of never needing them....No.
 
I'm surprised to see BATFE apologists in here. I wasn't around, but correct me if I'm wrong. In the early 60s you could buy a firearm anywhere. No paperwork. No incompetent tax ninjas sniffing over every serial number, time, date, and checkbox on a form. You could buy 'em through the mail.
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Wait, wait, wait.

Let's be very clear hear. Under our system of government, the branch that passes the laws - the legislative branch - is separate from the the branch that enforces the laws - the executive branch.

That means that it is the responsibility of the executive branch to enforce the laws that have been passed by the legislature. The BATFE is part of the executive branch, not the legislative branch. So they are not responsible for change in gun laws since the fabled 1960's. Look to the legislative branch for that. Once Congress passes a law, it is up to the executive branch to enforce that law.

The executive branch does not pass legislation.

The separation of powers under our Constitution is - to my mind - a very good thing. It is one of the fundamental checks on tyranny the Founding Fathers built into our Constitution. In many ways, it is more fundamental than the Bill of Rights - as it is in the body of the Constitution, not an amendment.

Are you arguing that we should dissolve the Constitution, and remove the separation of powers? Should the BATFE be responsible for both legislation and enforcement? That sounds like a bad idea to me. A really, really bad idea.

I would rather maintain the Constitution - but that means that the BATFE can only be dinged for errors in enforcement, not errors in legislation.

If you disagree with the legislation, talk to Congress!

Mike
 
If you put "Ave." as an address instead of "Avenue" or "FL" instead of "Florida" the BATFE considers this an error worth shutting you down over.
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Please provide a citation where the BATFE closes down a shop because someone write "FL" instead of "Florida".

Mike
 
The bar is set so high that over time nobody can follow the rules (not laws) perfectly.
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How many FFLs were there in the US last year? How many went to trial? How many were closes down by the BATFE?

I'm asking for facts - not anecdote. Does anyone know the numbers?

Mike
 
Just for the heck of it, did a quick search on stats. IN 2004, it looks like there we approximately 100K existing FFLs, and 10K new ones issued. There were about 12K inspection (application and compliance). In those inspections, about 2K had errors of some kind. There were about 50 revocation actions initiated.

About 4.5% of existing FFLs are inspected each year.

So here's the math, as I see it. Almost all new applications, and 4.5% of existing application are inspected each year.

Of the 100K FFLs, about 2% are found to have some errors. Of that 2% that have errors, approximately 2.5% have revocation orders issued.

So if you have a revocation order issued, you are in a pretty elite group of screw ups - you are in the bottom 5% of the bottom 1% of FFLs. That's not what I would call a really high bar to pass.

Am I reading the report correctly?

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0405/exec.htm

Mike
 
"Justifying all this crap because it's "the law of the land" doesn't make it good, nor right."

Justifying? I think not. More like refusing to deny reality. I see a lot folks denying reality. Laws and regulations have requirements. Actions have consequences.

I don't believe in speed limits; I think the law should simply require maintaining control and not driving faster than conditions warrant. OTOH, there are speed limits and I expect to get a ticket when I'm caught. That's the reality of it, no matter what I think would be better, fairer or more reasonable. Crying "It's not right" does nothing. Working to change the law is the only positive step available.

John
 
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