You cannot defeat basic physics. There are two types of recoil - actual and perceived. Actual is a math calculation (Newton) The lighter gun WILL have more recoil, simple. Perceived recoil, (aka "kick") is determined by gun fit, and action type. Not all autoloaders are gas operated, you also have long recoil and inertia. What these actions do is elongate the recoil pulse so it isn't as immediate (measured in milliseconds) as the pulse from a break open action. The actual recoil has not changed.Not necessarily so if there is another factor operating. Surely you know that autoloaders have less recoil than O/U guns of the same or slightly higher weight. The whole point of the Versa Max and V3 porting invention is the bleeding off of gas pressure greater than needed to operate the autoloading mechanism. That reduces recoil. Supposedly the 8 port system of the V3 is even better than the 7 port system of the Versa Max overcoming the small weight disadvantage.
Supposedly the 8 port system of the V3 is even better than the 7 port system of the Versa Max overcoming the small weight disadvantage.
All I care about is perceived. Is there a reason to be interested in anything else?You cannot defeat basic physics. There are two types of recoil - actual and perceived. Actual is a math calculation (Newton) The lighter gun WILL have more recoil, simple. Perceived recoil, (aka "kick") is determined by gun fit, and action type. Not all autoloaders are gas operated, you also have long recoil and inertia. What these actions do is elongate the recoil pulse so it isn't as immediate (measured in milliseconds) as the pulse from a break open action. The actual recoil has not changed.
You totally have missed my point, which I clearly stated. I have no idea which one is better. How could I? I’m laughing that the same manufacturer is making the same conflicting superiority claims for two of its products and referencing their stated reasons. When I introduce a piece of information as “funny”, that is exactly what I mean. Maybe you don’t think the contradiction IS funny.It has been explained to you by people who’ve shot both and have experience with both. The V3 is a really soft shooter just not quite as soft as a Versa Max. You seem hung up on what you’ve heard and read and seem convinced the V3 is softer shooting no matter what real world facts are presented. Your perspicacity is admirable.
Sayonara.
Yes, because damage from recoil is a cumulative one that over time can have serious debilitating results. Just ask those old trap shooters who now need release triggers. Being exposed to the recoil, in a slightly more comfortable manner, does not negate those effects.All I care about is perceived. Is there a reason to be interested in anything else?
You totally have missed my point, which I clearly stated. I have no idea which one is better. How could I? I’m laughing that the same manufacturer is making the same conflicting superiority claims for two of its products and referencing their stated reasons. When I introduce a piece of information as “funny”, that is exactly what I mean. Maybe you don’t think the contradiction IS funny.
I continually notice that many folks here don’t like discussing things. When a question is answered, the asker is supposed to say, “Yes, Boss,” and slink off obediently. But that is not how I roll. I talk stuff out. I get all the information out on the table to learn as much as I can. If there is an ambiguity like here, I want to talk about it. Sorry if that threatens you.
Thanks. I do appreciate your input and the weight of your experience.If I’m wrong then please forgive me. I responded to how it came across.
I think you are saying is what matters is the integral of (area under) the curve of recoil force plotted against time. Actually that makes a lot of sense. That would correspond to momentum in unitary terms, and recoil is the embodiment of momentum.Yes, because damage from recoil is a cumulative one that over time can have serious debilitating results. Just ask those old trap shooters who now need release triggers. Being exposed to the recoil, in a slightly more comfortable manner, does not negate those effects.
The best way to reduce those effects is to shoot the heaviest gun you can handle that perfectly fits with the lightest loads that work the gun and do the job.
As an example - I like to shoot clay targets - a lot. I reload a 3/4oz 12 gauge load that not only works in my O/Us, but also in my 2 Beretta A400s, one of which is their 3.5" model. An 8# gas gun shooting a 28 gauge level load is fun to shoot all day.
You can see the difference in recoil by using this on-line calculator:
http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html
Remember, increases in recoil is not linear.
As an example, I used the calculator to see the difference between my 3/4 and 1 oz loads in the same gun at the same velocity. 1oz was 18.6, 3/4oz was 11.8 - quite a substantial difference.
Not at all. This is just one set of resources. I still need to go into a store to see what I like there and what fits. Look for a good deal in a nearby internet dealer with brick and mortar. I have friends to hit up on for info. And I am reading as much as I can.Buying by committee . The days of doing research on a subject has left the bldg. Good luck .
Very good advice. My friend who I went with the other day has a very broad collection of shotguns, O/U, autoloader, and pump. He has offered to take several with us to his range to give me an overview of the characteristics. But while there if I see someone else using one I am interested in, I will definitely consider asking to give it a try. Thanks.Personally, if it were me, I would buy a flat or two of really nice target ammo, like Rem STS or Win AA and head to your local trap/skeet/sporting club. Make friends; most folks if asked politely, will let you shoot their gun. Try as many as you can, even ones you weren't considering and give them a box of ammo as a thanks. Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
Yep,,, especially when the 'research' somehow turns into a debate over the definition of recoil.Buying by committee . The days of doing research on a subject has left the bldg. Good luck .
I've had the opportunity to shoot a LOT of nice Trap guns for the price of a beer or box of shells, and listening to some (usually very interesting) stories.Personally, if it were me, I would buy a flat or two of really nice target ammo, like Rem STS or Win AA and head to your local trap/skeet/sporting club. Make friends; most folks if asked politely, will let you shoot their gun. Try as many as you can, even ones you weren't considering and give them a box of ammo as a thanks. Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
Huh? I thought that was good information.My original post here (#52) listed 5-6 different entry level shotguns that I currently own and a very brief highlight of each.
I must have somehow misunderstood the intent/direction of this thread,,,,,
Information removed.
Carry on.
I am an old timer and I find this discussion amusing.
Just sticking to Remington arms, I prefer an 870 to an 1100 any day, and I have owned both.
Shoot the 1100 with a full mag and you have a live round in the chamber, safety off and where is your trigger finger?
Shoot the 870, and unless you rack the gun, you have a spent empty shell in the chamber, and you have no need to worry about an AD, and no worry about the trigger or the safety. You can reload at any time you think about gun etiquette with the safety and the trigger finger. Another shot without racking the gun and the situation is the same.
If proficient, one can actually fire more rounds with an 870 in a shorter time than a 1100, even though the 870 has a trigger disconnector. It can be done even faster with a Winchester 1897 or a Model 12, just by holding back on the trigger. No disconnector.
Jim
Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
How much can be done by the owner or gunsmith to fix that either with supplied shims or in the case of the V3 without any....a situation that I just don’t understand? Can a gunsmith make what is needed to make the adjustments without having to charge an arm and a leg?I know what fits me in a semi. Wasted a lot of money over the years on shotguns that didn’t fit to gain that knowledge.
LOP 14.25”
DAC 1.5”
DAH 2.25”
Cast Off
If a semi-auto comes with those stock dimensions or can be shimmed to them, I can shoot it. I like the Benelli Vinci and Berettas. I’ve owned a Vinci, 3901 and A300. All three don’t have the stock dimensions I need, yet they felt awesome when I shouldered them in the store so I bought them. I also knew d@mn good and well I wouldn’t be able to shoot them but tricked myself cuz I want a Benelli and a Beretta. I of course couldn’t shoot them and they went down the road.
I’ve chosen to say in a rambling way that you are so right George. Just because a shotgun feels right when you shoulder it doesn’t mean doodly squat whether you can shoot it well or not.
How much can be done by the owner or gunsmith to fix that either with supplied shims or in the case of the V3 without any....a situation that I just don’t understand? Can a gunsmith make what is needed to make the adjustments without having to charge an arm and a leg?