Kel-Tec SU16 vs Saiga 223

Which will you prefer?

  • Kel-Tec SU 16

    Votes: 56 47.1%

  • Saiga 223

    Votes: 63 52.9%
  • Total voters
    119
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The Saiga .223 uses an underbored 7.62 barrel, making it very heavy. Additionally, 7.62 ammo is both more powerful and cheaper. I'd actually say go with a Saiga 7.62 if anything. But between the .223 and the SU-16, go with the SU-16. I have a Saiga .223, and it's a brick, much more so than my other AK-pattern rifles. It outweighs even my PSL.
 
I use to have both rifles. As Wardenwolf said the saiga is front heavy compared to the kel-tec. The saiga was more reliable. Accuracy was pretty equal. The saiga was easier to scope with its side rail. On the kel-tec if you used a full size scope you would have to remove it every time you cleaned the rifle. If the scope didn't come off you couldn't get the bolt and the piston assembly out of the receiver. Both triggers are not great. I would give the edge to the kel-tec. If you reload the keltec throws the brass close by in a pile. The saiga throws the brass into the next county and dents the brass pretty good. If I had to choose I would go with the saiga and shoot strictly steel case ammo out of it. Just so you know I sold both and built two ar rifles from kits which I'm much happier with. Mark
 
it is limited on mag size(if unconverted).
Click to expand...

It would be more precise to say that one can only run 10 round mags unless the gun is made 922r compliant. This can be done without doing a PG conversion, say by the use of US made magazines and a us made front hand guard.

That, said I would with out question do the PG conversion. It addresses all the issue raised by railroader in post #4, and vastly improves the rifle.
 
Kel-Tec, personally. Smaller overall, lighter weight, easy-to-find magazines. I wouldn't mind owning either, though, for what I'd use either them for--range fun and, in a pinch, HD.
 
I'll add towards the Saiga that Magnolia State Armory makes a magwell adapter for the .223 Saiga. Lets you use AR-15 magazines, but take it out and you can use Saiga mags again. The MSA adapter also lets the mags drop free.
 
Strengths of the SU-16 for me, being in California, are that the SU-16 is CA legal without requiring a bullet button, tends to be overlooked as less "evil" in its stock configuration, and is fairly easy to clean and maintain for those used to the AR/M-16 family. The light weight, easy storage, and use of STANAG magazines is a plus. THere are also now enough after-market accessories for the SU-16 that if I wanted to make it into an EBR it'd be easy and simple to match with AR modifications and kits.
 
Blackhawk30 said:
I'd buy a saiga.KT's have waaaaaay too many problems.
Click to expand...
Oh? Do you have any actual proof of problems or firsthand experience with the SU-16? Or is this just another case of FUD based on second-hand knowledge and rumors? *rolls eyes"

The OP asked which we prefer and why. I gave my opinion and points of support that reference traits of the rifle which are documented fact- i.e. weight, magazine compatibility, features that avoid Assault Weapon restrictions, et al. I had not even mentioned that the tests and reviews of the SU-16 report that it achieves between 1-2 MOA out of the box. It is an accurate shooting piece.

What can you offer that supports the Saiga as a better rifle? What proof can you cite that supports your assertion that the SU-16 "has too many problems"? If you are going to bother making an assertion, be prepared to support your position with some kind of argument that goes beyond personal opinion, neh?
 
I'm an owner of both a Keltec P-32 and Sub2k, both are very reliable. How is the reliability of the SU-16? Main concern is mag issues.
 
My mags are old USGI mags, and while I keep thinking I am going to get around to replacing the followers and springs, I still haven't. That being said, I have had almost no FTF from them, barring one mag that has just recently sadly hit its last legs. They slam in fine, and fit like they are at home with the SU-16. I've done a good amount of shooting through mine, and it's performed reliably. In fact, I had one instance where I had called to ask about some accessories and Kel-Tec pro-actively offered to replace certain parts from early gen SU-16's such as mine, no charge-no delays-no hassle. I sent in my parts and got the newer reinforced versions within the same week. Their customer service is awesome, and the rifle has continued to perform superbly.
 
Magnolia State Armory makes a magwell adapter for the .223 Saiga.
Click to expand...

I'd google that product and read up on the company. Apparently there are still a lot of people who ordered them, paid, and never got the product. Supposedly the owner went through serious personal problems and is now in the process of making amends and getting things going again. The history is something to be aware of before ordering however.

There is, however, another adapter available.

I have not owned the SU16. I have owned other kel tecs including a couple sub2Ks and I have shot a friends PLR and another gentleman's PLR SBR a decent amount.

The saiga is a much hardier rifle without a doubt. It is a time tested, battle proven AK after all. The saiga appears and feels better built than the kel tecs. The Saiga is also, based on what I have seen, a much more reliable rifle. It will run any ammo you like.

The Saiga while not a bench gun is more accurate than most shooters. Its mechanical accuracy is not going to be the limiting factor if shooting from field positions particularly, with irons .

I'd be interested to hear how SU 16s have held up to high round count carbine courses. I have never seen a SU16 at such a course or even heard of one being used in such a manner.
 
SU-16 and AK owner here. With the SU-16, I ran 300 rounds out of the box. There was a hiccup toward the end, but I lubed the bolt carrier and all was well again. Now that it is properly cleaned and lubed, I suspect it'll perform even better. I was using Pmags and the stock 10 rounders. I love my AK, and every AK I've shot. But I think I might like my SU-16 more. I really can't overstate how amazingly lightweight it is.
 
3 P11
1 PLR
1 P32


All 3 of the P11's went back for service.
PLR works but the bolt carrier won't go all the way forward when chambering a round.Sometimes I have to help it along.
P32 works fine.But I have
only shot 50 rds thru it.

I like Kel Tecs but they break too much.
 
SU-16. I have 6k rounds thru mine, it shoots consistantly 1.5MOA. No problems as far as reliability or feeding. It is light, (my Charlie is the folding model) compact, and packs 30 rounds of 5.6mm in a 4.5 lbs (2.1 kg) package.
I looked at the Saiga, but the 10 rounders (and having to count US made parts to begin to modify it), the accuracy issues, against having a US made firearm from a company with the best warranty there is (if you can break it we will replace it free).
The SU is NOT a battle rifle- If you want to assault fortified NATO positions, or shoot at infidels in the 3rd world a AK/Saiga is great. For a fine all around plinking/hunting/SD IMHO the SU is hard to beat.
 
I looked at the Saiga, but the 10 rounders (and having to count US made parts to begin to modify it), the accuracy issues,
Click to expand...

I didn't know counting to ten was that hard. :D

Seriously though what accuracy issues pray tell? I highly doubt the SU16 has an edge on the saiga in accuracy.
 
I went through the same dilemma around 2 years ago. I really wanted an SU-16CA, but could only find them for insanely ridiculous prices($600 and up). I stumbled onto a Saiga .223 during my hunt for the elusive Kel Tec, and ended up taking it home for $400(post-Obama election). When I finally got around to handling the SU-16, I felt like a small piece of me died. I had it hyped up so huge in my head, but it turned out to be not all that great. It was light, but felt cheap(not knocking it, I love plastic guns), and I didn't like the overall setup of it.

What everyone here is saying is pretty spot on: Kel Tecs aren't battle rifles and are made of mostly plastic, Saigas have expensive mags and are front heavy. Accuracy between the two is negligible. For what it's worth, my Saiga spent about a year stock before I converted it.
 
Kel-Tec, but only the CA. I like the heavy barrel, and especially the modular capability with the now available "E" pistol grip setup. Ubiquitous standard M-16 mags and a 5.56MM chamber don't suck either.
 
I broke the tie.

KelTec made in USA.

GUnsmith/manufacturer life long budy encouraged me to look into a Kelec with the E stock set up rather than building an AR15 light weight carbine. Just want a light duty rifle the kids can shoot (thus the interest in .223 and the CAR or M4 stock and light weight)

Not fired an SU-16 yet though and only handled a couple of the first ones.

To me a Saiga would not be complete until it got AK ized so cost would be about the same and if I get an AK I want one in an exSoviet caliber.

Really like the looks of the "E" stock and pistol grip on the SU-16 unfortunately the web catalog only offers the E stock as an accessory as of last night though my friend indicatedhis beleif KT will offer a factory E in the very near future.

-kBob
 
Had the Kel-Tec in my cart, changed my mind at the last minute and got the Saiga instead. Great rifle, no regrets. It's a genuine Russian AK (albeit de-fanged)-how can you go wrong?
 
Kel-Tec. Accepts STANAG magazines, I kind of like the folding aspect of it, it weighs very little, already set up with a rail. I kind of like Kel Tec's anyhow.
 
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