Kel-Tec

[pocketgun]

I see range reports on KTOG where someone grades their experience a 'C-' and the mod has to come along and say "Oh that's a B+ range report for this pistol.' WHat would you call that?

You have a link to that? Otherwise "what I would call it" is fiction.

I think Soybomb made the point best: whatever you own, you must ensure it is reliable before you carry it. I have noticed a lot more patience given toward $1000 pistols with issues than with those who only paid $225. Kel-Tec makes a lot of pistols and some occasionally need some work. I have seen the same thing with Kahrs, Kimbers, Sigs, even Glocks.

The difference with a Kel-Tec is that the factory is extremely easy going with regard to allowing owners to do some work on their pistols without voiding the warranty. If you don't want to try the do-it-yourself method (polishing a ramp, replacing a part that they send you for free) you can just send it in for some of the best/quickest customer service available. Chances are excellent that a NIB pistol will run well with nothing more than a cleaning, lube, and trying out various types of ammo.

Even if you get one that needs some work it will be worth it eventually. Try and find a used one and you will see what I mean (they are hard to find and nearly as much as new ones). Show me a sub-9 ounce pocket pistol that is 0.77" or thinner. It is going to say "Kel-Tec" on the side - there is nothing quite like it for front pocket carry at any price.

 

[ugaarguy]

I'm not interested in what other guns you own, that's non-sequiter to this discussion of keltecs

Normally I'd agree. Except that you said

They're intersting handguns. I don't own one.. But after reading inneumerale posts from KT entheusiests (hi guys) I'm reminded of a skit from Mad TV: Lowered ex-pec-ta-tions. Lower the bar for what qualifies as relaibale or durable, and yeah, all KTs get a 100%

Since you're accusing Kel-Tec owners having lowered expectations I provided examples of a couple of handguns I own to refute your baseless claim. I've provided a link to a poll that confirms that Kel-Tecs do work well, which also contains my comments on my Kel-Tec experience, as well as those of others. Again, relay your experience with Kel-Tec products and, as Pocketgun has also asked you to do, provide a link to back up this claim; I

see range reports on KTOG where someone grades their experience a 'C-' and the mod has to come along and say "Oh that's a B+ range report for this pistol.' WHat would you call that?

For what it's worth, I again agree with Pocketgun, and I call it fiction until a link is cited. Please don't take this as being harsh, I'm just asking you to put some substance behind your claims.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I never thought I'd buy a Keltec but I saw one in the shop and decided to take the plunge. I'm really glad I did. At first I had some trouble shooting it well because of the DAO trigger as I had been shooting my Hi-Power quite a bit before that. As I got better with the trigger I realized the gun is really quite accurate. The sights are a little rudimentary but I'm going to upgrade the rear sight and I think I'm going to keep it as my carry gun. Ten rounds of 9mm DPX in a really small and light package is not a bad thing. In the summer I carry my snub nosed 38 in my front pocket but when I wear looser shorts I carry my KT and with 10 rounds it is still lighter than my 38. I give the nod to my KT over the snub nose for combat style shooting also. It is much easier to point shoot a semiauto for me.

PS My personal P-11 doesn't care too much for +P ammo but with standard pressure ammo I've never had any problems at all. I shot some 124 +p+ Hydrashoks and the slide would lock back prematurely but I was also using a different grip than usual so I'm not even sure if it was the ammo or me that caused that. My guns also really new so I'll see if it grows to like the +p stuff as it breaks in.

 

[LooterLefty]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

 

[MCgunner]

I cannot see why NOT buy a KT even if you're a little concerned with it. I mean, I've seen P11s around here regularly for $200-$230. That's low enough even if you don't like it, or if it was flawed and even if KT couldn't fix it (they'll send you a new one if the can't), you could just sell it at a gun show and buy something else. Might cost a few bucks, but I've lost money on guns I didn't like before. Now, if I bought a $2500 custom 1911 and it was a POS (I've heard of this happening), I'd be a little put out.

But, my Kel Tec has been fantastic. It's so small and offers so much in concealable fire power I just had to get one. It also turned out to be surprisingly accurate and I've carried it constantly for 9 years. It's more compact than a PPK, yet fires +P 9mm, 11 of 'em, 13 if I'd buy the new magazines. That's just hard to beat in a pocket gun, frankly.

I've been considering whether the PF9 would be any improvement and dimensionally, I don't think so. I'm sure it's a nice gun, but I really like the P11. I might get a P3AT in the future, though, affordable and MAN that thing is just so tiny! If you can't conceal a P3AT, you're naked. If you're well enough endowed, even THAT don't matter!

BTW, I post occasionally on the KT board as CCWBiker.

 

[Cueball]

Well I DO have a newer P3AT (less than 1yr old) and I started out with a very frustrating time with it. I couldn't get the gun to feed any type of ammo at all. It jammed with every clip I tried to shoot with it. I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject. (I know I'll probably get flamed for the previous sentence, but so be it, it's the truth)
Now, as far as my gun goes. I did finally find out some things to try and after I polished my feed ramp to a mirror finish, and a few other tweaks. My gun operates pretty well. It's still not 100%, but it's much improved.

Would I buy another, probably not, but I have kept the one I did buy so far.

 

[MCgunner]

Well I DO have a newer P3AT (less than 1yr old) and I started out with a very frustrating time with it. I couldn't get the gun to feed any type of ammo at all. It jammed with every clip I tried to shoot with it. I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject. (I know I'll probably get flamed for the previous sentence, but so be it, it's the truth)
Now, as far as my gun goes. I did finally find out some things to try and after I polished my feed ramp to a mirror finish, and a few other tweaks. My gun operates pretty well. It's still not 100%, but it's much improved.

Would I buy another, probably not, but I have kept the one I did buy so far.

I'd have sent it back to the factory, personally. I want my carry guns 100 percent, no exceptions.

 

[1 LT MPC]

I have a p-11 that wont keep the assembly pin in after shooting. As luck would have it, I have noticed the failure before firing another round. Kel-Tec sent me another pin--but it was the wrong one. I'm now waiting for the correct pin and losing faith in the gun. Lately, I've been carring my Cobra and I think I'll just stick with it.:banghead

I'm to the point now that if it doesn't say Colt, Glock, Smith or Ruger, I don't own it.

 

[TC-TX]

Lefty - please do us all a favor...

1) Do NOT criticize nor critique something you have No First-Hand Knowledge of... It makes ones opinion completely invalid and therefore useless. It also places all of your future posts in a class of Questionable Validity.

2) use spell check.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I think the PF-9, besides being thinner, will have improved sights, and new trigger design similar to the smaller guns, and a firing pin block. Supposedly it will have a better and lighter trigger and the single stack magazine should solve the mag rattles and most of the feeding issues. Overall it looks to be pretty sweet.

 

[LooterLefty]

I went to the Kel-Tec board to try to get some help and got flamed for saying there was something wrong with my gun... quite an unfriendly bunch and very defensive about the subject.

I think this is a not uncommon experience from what I've seen lurking on those KT boards. In fact, one of the mods was so kind as to post on this thread with his helpful advice.. Thanks TexCajun.

 

[jon_in_wv]

post removed.

 

[kokapelli]

John_in_WV, because I am a KelTec owner, I watch the KTOG groups and have found them to be generally very tolerant and helpful.

What could you have posted that got you flamed in both groups?

 

[Avizpls]

The price of the Kel-Tec is very, very affordable and that is very, very scary!!!

Its sad that the industry is to a point where consumers are falsely convinced that if a gun isnt top-dollar, it is inadequate.

Buy the Kel Tec. You will not regret it. I have three (P3AT, P11, SU16A) and I dont regret anything at all.

 

[pocketgun]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

I don't frequent KTOG anymore. I didn't call you a liar LL, nor am I calling you one now. I have spent enough time on the forums to understand that it is very easy to misconstrue what is written there, particularly if it was meant humorously. Without the link to read, all we can do is guess. I am not going to run it down for you, because it certainly doesn't reflect how I feel about the subject anyway.

I can tell you that I have the same expectations of my Kel-Tecs as I do my other pocket pistols. They need to go bang every time, assuming they are kept clean and properly lubed. They are not combat pistols, and won't be reliable if dirty, filled with mud or sand, or fired with a flexible wrist. To make such a small/light pistol, trade-offs must be made. But provided you take the extra care needed with them, a pocket pistol can be expected to work properly in a self-defense situation. When I shoot my P-3AT at the range, I stop every 50 rounds and strip it, then wipe down the chamber/ramp/cam area of the barrel and the tops of the magazines. I then relube the barrel and reassemble. Alternately, I can use some of the "lead free" ammo types and shoot as much as 150 rounds without it getting dirty. For me it is just knowing what the limits are, and keeping within them. My P-3AT has nearly 1000 rounds downrange without a failure by sticking with this method. My P-11 and P-40 have never had a failure, and don't need to be cleaned as often as the P-3AT.

Yes, I got banned from BOTH Keltec websites because I disagreed with one of the administrators. They weren't nice at all. NO loss. I have found the crowd here to be much more receptive and informed.

If you were banned from the KTrange it was under a different username. Bannings usually are done with a bit of fanfare, and I don't recall any that could have been you. You probably missed one of the rules and had your account suspended. If that is the case, reactivation is no big deal; send me a PM if you are interested.

I did see you on my last visit to KTOG - it looked like you deleted your own account to me.

 

[P. Plainsman]

The P3AT is reviewed in the current American Rifleman. They suffered repeated FTEs with Winchester FMJ; hotter ammo worked fine.

I have only a bit of first-hand experience with a pocket Kel-Tec (couldn't hit jack), but the gun's reviewers certainly have such experience. All I know is that it's been a while since I've read a formal review of the Kel-Tec that didn't mention jams at some point. Last one I recall reading before Rifleman's review was George Hill in Concealed Carry magazine. Tons of jams, total unreliability. In a postscript, Hill noted that he sent his gun back to K-T and said it ran 100% after they worked on it. He is very happy with the gun now, but the net effect of his review and the postscript, on this reader, at least, was not positive.

If you can conceal a S&W 642 easily, personally, I'd stick with the revolver. I have trigger time on at least three different J-frame snubbies and have never experienced the slightest problem with function. It's a tested, thoroughly reliable design, and loaded with proper ammo, like the 158 grain +P lead hollowpoints, it is much more gun than the Kel-Tec.

But then, the P3AT is a truly miniature design meant to push the envelope. It will conceal in circumstances when even a J-frame won't. I think the P3AT's real competition is something like an NAA mini-revolver in .22 Magnum.

PS: I do appreciate K-T the company. They are one of the few American gun makers that is trying to design truly innovative self-defense firearms, and I give them credit for that. Their PLR-16 pistol is perhaps the most intriguing new gun of the last couple of years.

 

[jon_in_wv]

post retracted.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Post retracted.

 

[ugaarguy]

What's up, pocketgun? I see a few users rom the KT boards here.

Look a page or two back on the 'OG, 3AT section. I'm not posting the link.

And don't call me a liar..

LL, here's how it works. You made the claim, you back it up. It's your job to cite your sources, not our job to look them up for you. If you were to write a college paper and quote something you'd be expected to cite it. If your citation was "it's in this book, you'll have to find it yourself" your professor would tell you to either a) cite it properly with not just the book title, but the edition, author, copywrite date, publisher, page & paragraph that the source came from, and any other pertinent info, or b) any arguements that use that quote as their premise will be considered invalid since the source can't verified. Now this ain't English 1101, but the same principles apply. Properly cite the source that is the premise of your arguement, by using a link or links to it in this case, or we will continue to view your arguement as invalid.

Resqbubba, welcome to THR, and hopefully you're enjoying watching our little debate. I hope your questions on Kel-Tecs have been sufficiently answered. If they haven't please jump back in and ask more questions. We'll answer them as best we can.

 

[LooterLefty]

guess what?

this aint a college paper..

 

[ugaarguy]

guess what?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this aint a college paper

..

Guess what? I said

Now this ain't English 1101, but the same principles apply. Properly cite the source that is the premise of your arguement, by using a link or links to it in this case, or we will continue to view your arguement as invalid.

You're right, THR isn't about college english class. THR is a place of principles. The principle is citing your sources or backing up your argument with personal experience. That applies here, in a college paper, and many other places. So back up your claims. I tried to be civil, but that hasn't worked. So I'll put it terms you might better understand: Put up or shut up.

 

[erich w]

they are very reliable and I must say for the price are more then worth it, my only complete is that they aren't exactly the most acurate but for a compact/subcompact you can't expect alot, the price more then makes up for though.

 

[pocketgun]

I think this is a not uncommon experience from what I've seen lurking on those KT boards. In fact, one of the mods was so kind as to post on this thread with his helpful advice.. Thanks TexCajun.

OBTW, TC-TX is not the same person as TxCajun (moderator at KTOG).

edited to add: profile link - TxCajun

 

[Byron Quick]

I wrote a review for SWAT on the P3AT not long after it first came out. The P3AT I used for that article was purchased by me and is still my daily BUG.

I fired several hundred rounds of various ammunition for the article. The pistol had no malfunctions of any kind.

It has not been fluffed, buffed, or modified in any manner. Bone stock. Kel Tec did not know that the pistol would be used in a magazine article. The dealer-Joe Sheehan at the Gun Cabinet in Augusta, Georgia-did not know this either.

I carry it in an Andrews Leather pocket holster in my right front pocket. The pistol collects pocket lint. To date, it functions just fine with the pocket lint buildup. Firing a magazine will clear out the pocket lint just fine.

The next malfunction will be the first malfunction. Accuracy is acceptable for the role of the pistol...a BUG.

For those who care to look it up...the article is in the April, 2004 issue of SWAT.

 

[JShirley]

Also- my P-32 was considerably more reliable than Byron's NAA. Out of the box.

Byron ended up doing a fluff & buff- mostly feed ramp polishing- in an attempt to make his NAA as reliable as the P-32!

Yes, I've had problems with KTs before. I had some failure-to-feeds with my Sub-9 after about 180 rounds of dirty Russian ammo, and I had some ftfs with my P-40 while firing 145-grain ammo. I also had some ftes with my P-32 after it had about 60 rounds through it (by 200 rounds, I no longer experienced any malfs, even when dirty).

I have also had malfs with Glocks (3 models), Taurus, Kahrs, Brownings, Colts and even a S&W K-frame! (That's just what I remember. I'm sure there are more.)

As with any firearm, treat it decently, fire it extensively with the ammo you'll use for defense, and be happy.

---
Aside from that, administrative actions on another gun discussion board are really not appropriate for discussion here. Leave it there, or take it to PM or email.

John