Kids and guns

[Seattleimport]

Just read the article on the 14 year-old kid who shot up his dad, his aunt, and his grandma with a .22 rifle that his dad had bought him for his 14th birthday.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/18/south.carolina.family.shot/

The kid later called the cops and explained what he'd done in a "clear, methodical voice." According to investigators, there were no behavioral issues or other typical warning signs for violence. Apparently he just spontaneously went nuts, grabbed his rifle, and started killing.

Which begs the question: how do we, as responsible gun owners, deal with kids and guns? More specifically, as a parent, how does your behavior (in terms of using/storing/providing access to guns) differ from when you were not a parent?

I grew up shooting air rifles, and later, my grandfather's 10/22 (willed to me upon his death). Occasional visits to uncles in the country gave me access to bigger rifles, shotguns, and pistols. And of course the bolt-action .22 rifles were the best part of boy scouts and camp.

But growing up, my dad kept the bullets locked away. I could handle the rifle (to clean, or just fiddle with) but any time we wanted to shoot, we went shooting together. Even though the gun was mine, my dad took responsibility for it, and for my actions with it.

Nowadays, as a 30-something, it seems like that was a decent choice but that the gun itself should have also been secured behind lock and key. After all, it's easy to buy bullets. And besides, any time it could be legally fired, I'd need him to be with me anyway: unlawful to discharge firearm within city limits, and the shooting ranges required shooters to be 18+ or accompanied by legal guardian.

What do you guys think? Any parents out there with insight?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

He coulda also went nuts and killed 'em with a kitchen knife, burned the house down, ect...

I got my first gun when I was 12. It was kept on a gun rack in my room. I always had a box of shells on the shelf next to it. Sure, as a kid I got steaming made at my parents over something or another that was foolish. I never thought about killing them, though.

 

[CoastieShep]

I grew up with guns in the house. They were never loaded or locked up, and bullets and shells were always in the garage, or in the cabinet underneath the gun cabinet. Never had any problems with it.
I now have a 3 year old daughter and a (nearly) 2 year old son. Guns and ammo aren't locked up, but they are out of their reach. When they're old enough, I will teach them about them and take them to shoot. I'm a firm believer that curiosity killed the cat. Kids are curious, and if you have guns, but don't talk about them or just tell the kids not to touch them, they will play with them. But if you talk to them, and teach them, they're not curious any more, so they don't feel the need to play with them like they would if guns were a mystery.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Not sure his status as a child has anything to do with this either...sounds like a similar situation to the Ronald DeFeo incident..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_DeFeo,_Jr.

 

[jbkebert]

My boys ages 11 and 10 both have a couple rifles and a shotgun each. The guns stay in my safe when not in use. The boys no darn well how to get into the safe but know darn good and well there had better be a heck of a reason. They also know that there is no horse play no nothing when the guns are out. I guess no one can say for sure that nothing will ever happen. All we can do is teach them right from wrong and hope for the best.

Don't blame video games, music or whatever else people who fail to parent blame. If there is any shread of doubt about anyone guns should not be in the picture. My kids no very well what a gun is capable of after holding a sqaurley hit heart in thier hands from a deer. Bottom line if your kid is stupid don't buy them a gun.

 

[mcdonl]

As much as it pains me, all of the guns are locked away when my 14 and 11 year old daughters are home alone.

The part that pains me is they are both safe and accurate with guns and it kills me that if anything were to happen at home and they could not access a firearm I would not be able to live with myself. But... the pain would not be as bad as it would be if they had a lapse in judgment and hurt themselves or others.

And... I find this hard to believe

According to investigators, there were no behavioral issues or other typical warning signs for violence

 

[Seattleimport]

I appreciate the feedback, and agree 100% with teaching kids about guns early (and continuing that respect and education through to adulthood).

What stuck out in this story, to me, was that the kid received the gun from his dad as a present. This led me to assume (with the usual caveat about assumptions):

1) The dad was gun-friendly/had basic knowledge about guns
2) Since the dad was gun-friendly, he taught his kid about how to safely handle guns

And yet, this still happened.

Sure, sure: this kid went crazy. Obviously the gun didn't shoot itself, and the kid could have just as easily used a knife or fire or chainsaw or whatever. But still: children aren't adults. They are not fully developed, emotionally or biologically. There's a reason we don't let them drink or drive or vote. Seems to make sense to (as a parent) do your best to keep weapons out of their hands, unless you're there to supervise.

Again: not talking about laws or anything, just parenting choices. Curious to hear from more gun-owning parents on this issue.

--

Also, mcdonl, I think you're making the right call. The risk of they (or their friends) having a dangerous lapse of judgment is much higher than the risk that they'd find themselves in/need a gun for a self-defense situation.

 

[Black Butte]

Due to advances in psychology and medical science, we now now that the brains of young adults do not finish developing until their early twenties. Last to develop are the centers that control inhibition and moral conscience. In light of this, I do not support providing teens with weapons in today's culture of violent video games, carnage-laden films, and reprehensible "song" lyrics.

 

[rfwobbly]

I do believe violence in movies, on TV, in pop music and in video games has a detrimental effect on kids. There's no way around it. I believe studies support that view. That's one reason our kids didn't watch any TV and listened to our radio stations.

Kids are a conglomeration of every input in their lives. When I was young that was mostly my parents and a couple of John Wayne movies. Nowadays, it's movies, videos, internet, pop music, "good" and "bad" friends and more. Even with a lot of close parenting, it's an uphill battle these days. What the parents are saying is 180 degrees apart from what pop music is saying. The kids are literally being ripped in half on the inside. They don't know who to believe.

I bet $100 there's some rap music on that kid's iPod extolling the virtues of using your gun to "blow away" people who get in your way. He probably sat quietly in the backseat for 200 hours listings to that (being a "good boy"), before the thought, the hormones, and a special situation combined to trigger something. Then he acted.

"Train up a child..."

 

[bp_cowboy]

yes, like most here... I grew up with guns and they were never locked up and ammo was in the drawer right below the gun rack. I've been teaching my 11 year old for several years via BB gun, then real gun, etc.. He now has his own deer rifle, shotgun, and shoots my pistols with me. I believe the best education about guns is knowledge of them and lots of parental guidance.

 

[browneu]

Let me first say that my granparents raised me and I lived in the country.

I grew up with guns in the house and I knew exactly where they were. Loaded in the closet and loaded in the night stand.

I had my first rifle when I was eight and shot it often.

Ironically, they wouldn't let me have a BB gun or a toy gun. Their opinion was I needed to respect the firearms for what they are and if I wanted to target shoot go out back and shoot the rifle, observing the rules they set for me. But they didn't want me to trivialize a firearm for what it is, something that can kill either intentionally or unintentionally.

So I learned to respect and keep respect of the firearm and the mystique behind one was gone.

I'm doing the same with my son with the exception of the guns being in the safe. However, he knows how to get into the safe and knows where the ammo is. He is picking up the same respect for weapons and understands the power behind them.

It's not the best to assume but I'm wondering if the guy educated his son other than don't touch and they're dangerous.

Regardless it's very sad and my prayors are with the family.

 

[Liberty1776]

Apparently he just spontaneously went nuts, grabbed his rifle, and started killing.

Can't go for it. No one spontaneously "goes nuts". There had to be underlying problems that were probably ignored. I just can't buy this story, as it comes near to blaming the gun or access to the gun, for setting him off. JMO

 

[Whiskey11]

I do believe violence in movies, on TV, in pop music and in video games has a detrimental effect on kids

I actually did a paper in college about the effects of violent video games on adolescents and you'd be surprised the number of conflicting studies out there on that very issue. In fact, there is NO clear cut consensus on the issue when examining all of the studies. I probably went through 30-40 studies for this paper and it's astonishing how both ends all point to similar conclusions (Basically "we are not sure and this warrants further research").

I did find numerous studies which said that violent video games actually have a calming effect because it gives kids an outlet for anger and stress that can be constructive. I also found studies that said that video games DO increase the violent tendencies of kids with certain personality traits which pre-dispose those kids to being violent anyway (things such as abusive backgrounds, etc). The most interesting study I read basically boiled it down to being parenting and association with others that prevents violent media from becoming violent actions.

Lets just put it this way. To add my own anecdotal evidence, I grew up playing violent video games (Doom, Half-Life, Quake, etc), and at 23 years of age, I am about as aggressive as a passed out cat. It takes a TON of poking, prodding, and stressing to get me to become violent, and that violence, will be in words LONG before I actually start swinging. I also participate in a hobby that is incredibly "violent" by todays standard (Military Simulation stuff) and I am involved in shooting sports, and I've played many a violent board games, etc. Just because someone plays them, does not mean this will be the cause. At 14, I would have NEVER thought about throwing punches or shooting someone, I was too busy with school and chasing girls and worrying about pimples and stuff to get frustrated!

I'm not sure what to think about this shooting, but I bet there is something else here that hasn't been reported.

 

[pacerdude]

I have to second Liberty1776 here, surely some signs must have presented themselves, maybe the kid had been acting a little off lately or too quiet or anything, but at the least he had to be exhibiting some abnormal behavior prior to killing his family. Now maybe no one noticed him acting differently or if they did they attributed it to hormones, but I find it hard to believe that he was all happy go lucky one second and a killer the next.

However, I am no psychologist so whatever I think doesn't amount to a hill of beans, and on the other hand he may have just snapped and had a psychotic break. At this point only God and maybe the kid know why he shot his family.

In any case it is a very sad story.

 

[country boy marksman]

I killed my first deer at nine. I had been shooting long before that. I always had close supervision. Now at 15, I handle guns almost every day, be it for cleaning, modifying, or for pest control. I know, and my parents know that I wouldn't just go off and shoot someone. I have earned their trust and we know each other well enough for it to not be a problem. However, I know many people my age that I wouldn't trust with a gun any further than I can throw them! A child's parents know them better than most people, if they know how to be parents. If they didn't see it coming, IMHO, they weren't paying near enough attention! I play military video games, and have killed many animals. I realize the difference in reality, a game, and killing an animal for food/ to keep the dang rabbits out of my grandpa's garden! The problem is that parents don't care about or pay attention to their children, and they wind up paying for it. Sorry for ranting, but people like this give responsible teenagers (at least I see myself as responsible!) a bad name and make all "minors" that handle firearms look like psychopaths!

Marksman

 

[otisrush]

When I was growing up my dad let me know how to get into the gun room. It had guns and ammo. I knew the first time I went in unauthorized might well be the last.

While my son is very safe and I'm proud of how he handles guns, all guns and ammo are in my safe and he doesn't know how to open it. I'm thankful for how my dad trusted me, but I think times are different now (at least I think they are).

OR

 

[Davek1977]

I started shooting airguns at around 5, and owned my first .22 @ 12. I always had access to the rifle, and always had an adaquet supply of plinking ammo. We lived in a rural area, and it was commonplace for me to shoot 100 rounds after school day in and day out, unsupervised (though, mom was usually in the house, a VERY short distance away (I typically "benchrested" off our deck!!). Also, by 12 I had access to every other firearm in the house. The arrangement worked for my family at that time. Living in an urban environment where opprotunites to shoot aren't nearly so availble, a different approach may be best. My access was based upon opprotunity to shoot, and access to areas to do so safely. Other than self-defense (which I'm not discounting in any way--just not something a lot of people feel comfortable discussing with their children) theres really no NEED for a child to have unrestricted access to firearms in an environment where there is no valid excuse to do any sort of shooting, etc

 

[johnthomas]

Your response was perfect. When my son was 16, a gang banger took his skateboard.
He turned him in, and the problems started. We finally got him out of that school.
In his twenties we were talking about it and he told me not having guns available to him when he wanted probably saved some lives and a whole lot of trouble. I heard the news tonight, a kid brought a gun to school in his back pack, it fell or he dropped it and the gun went off, two shot, one in critical conditions with a hole in the head. Unless that gun is stolen, the legal owner needs to go to prison and the boy with the back back as well.

 

[Davek1977]

When my son was 16, a gang banger took his skateboard.
He turned him in, and the problems started. We finally got him out of that school.
In his twenties we were talking about it and he told me not having guns available to him when he wanted probably saved some lives and a whole lot of trouble.

I'm sorry, but the idea your child would seek to use firearms to solve his problems indicates an issue no gun safe in the world can begin to address, in my opinion.

 

[lizziedog1]

I grew up on a small ranch. A .22 rifle was always kept at the ready for "emergencies." It was in the open with a loaded magazine right next to it. Us kids could have grabbed and shot any time. But we were disciplined, a bad word I know.

Our dad told us that we are never to touch that gun. If we touched that gun his boot would touch our rear-ends.

I see many kids out of control in stores, restaurants, theaters, church, you name it. With that kind of family I don't think guns should even be brought into the house.

 

[jgiehl]

When I teach my kids, 3,2, and 6 mo., yes even the little one gets lessons in firearm safety and education.
I tell them that yes they are guns and ammunition, but more importantly what these are is tools. Tools that have an intended job and application. And just like any other tool, if you use them outside of those intended jobs and applications you will cause yourself and other serious harm.
When I was with my son in Wal-Mart we passed by the gun counter and I asked him if he seen any guns? He looked through the glass and said, "No guns dad, just tools." I knew I had success but the lady looked upset and confused and replied with, "those aren't tools, those are guns!"
She really got mad when I told her, "No, those are tools." Then gave her the same speech I give my kids.

 

[browneu]

lizziedog1 I know exactly what you mean. I was more scared of what my grandfather would do to me if I touched his guns without permission than the gun itself.

 

[esquare]

a kid brought a gun to school in his back pack, it fell or he dropped it and the gun went off, two shot, one in critical conditions with a hole in the head.

Can you really believe that? He dropped the gun and it went off? It would have to be a pretty old gun for that to happen, but this is the 'explanation' that I ALWAYS hear in news reports of negligent discharges. We must be carrying around a lot of relics for this to be happening.

If there's such a rash of these NDs happening, why doesn't the cali school system institute the NRA Eddie Eagle program in elementary school and safe gun handling classes in middle school? Frankly, maybe the legislature and school board should be held accountable to failing to teach basic safety. When it comes to sex, it's the responsibility of the public school system to do the teaching, but when it comes to firearms, it's all on the parents?

I'm not really saying that we should do the things above - I'm making a point of the reactionary mentality that many of us take when it comes to children. We should teach our kids how to live in this world fully, and each child is going to be different so it's our job as parents to find the approach that is going to work. But saying, 'no guns for any children' based on the reaction to one psychopathic kid's actions is not the right approach.

 

[SWDoc]

It is always confusing/frustrating when studies (if well done) come to different conclusions (or no conclusion at all). Lt. Col Dave Grossman's books "On Killing" and "On Combat" are very readable, and trace the evolution of the military's methods (from WW I on) of desensitizing their young recruits to the taking of human life. Some good insights into HOW the games, movies, gangs, and societal changes make it easier for young people to kill. Based on training that the military undertook specifically to enable that (by reducing the normal human aversion). Warning: by the end, Col Grossman DOES take a stand against the games, etc. If you are averse to differing opinions you might not enjoy the books, but there IS valuable info to help understand the evolution of this tendency.

More on point: I keep ALL my firearms locked, leaving the HD pistols either in my pocket, or in a quick access minisafe at all times. My 24YO son will be getting the combo to the gun safe this year. My 21YO son will get it in a few years. As someone pointed out, it is not ALL training. Some of it is a developmental issue young people have little control over. It varies greatly from one individual to another.

Steve

 

[~Gunguy~]

It makes me cringe every time a fool with a gun somehow injures or kills someone,and then i have to hear a bunch of gun control rhetoric from the people interviewed by the media...It hurts to say it but if it continues i think more people will buy into this "no guns,no crime' mentality..And just for the record "as many other posters have said,it is hard to believe this child would all of a sudden do something like this...hopefully a sound unbiased investigation will occur...i wont hold my breath