FFL's and parents buying for kids

[paintballdude902]

do you think that most dealers turn somewhat of a blind eye to people buying guns for their kids in what could be a straw purchase?

unless its pretty obvious like the kids handing their parents the money or talking about paying them for it.

if it was me i really wouldnt have a problem doing this unless it was very obvious.

when my dad got me a .22lr revolver at the age of 16 the guy handed me the revolver first thing and never really talked to my dad about it i think he was a tad suspicious when my dad grabbed a wad of odd bills from his coat pocket (5's 10's and 20's kinda looked like tip money to me.....)

would you have a problem doing this?

 

[renegade1alpha]

I don't have a problem with this so long as its done in a manner that shows responsibility.

For example, if you have some guy come into a gun store looking like he slept under a bridge and reeking of alcohol and his kid is wearing his ball cap cocked sideways on his head like he turned his head to quickly and wearing baggy gang clothes? Hell no I wouldn't sell it to him. But, if dad and son came in looking respectable and showing some sense of responsiblit, that's a whole different story. Chances are if you LOOK like a dirt bag, then you ARE a dirt bag. Not always the case, but 99% of the time it is.

Also, there is nothing saying that the gun is ACTUALLY the child's because it is being purchased in the adults name. I personally own quite a few guns that I have purchased and plan on letting my two boys shoot. So if I decide for some reason I want to buy a Chipmunk .22 rifle for myself, but let my sons shoot it, then so be it.

 

[devildog4329]

IMHO common sense should be applied. For example why would a teenage kid need anything other than a hunting rifle, shotgun, or hunting pistol? I just purchased a Ruger MKIII to give to my daughter when i feel she is responsible enough to use it. My plan is to get her into rimfire pistol competition. But i am not going to purchase a weapon that she has no need for just because she wants it. For example a pocket pistol at the age of 15. This is just just sense able.

 

[hso]

An FFL needs to comply with the law or risk loosing the opportunity of supplying us.

If you want to give a firearm to a responsible child who is old enough to legally have it without supervision, then make a gift of it.

If you want your child to learn to shoot, but they're too young to legally have the firearm without supervision then let them help you pick what is best for them to shoot, but keep it as your's until they are old enough to legally possess it.

A straw purchase does none of us any good.

 

[BHP FAN]

I don't believe any paperwork is required in the case of a father to an adult child [21 or over,son or daughter], though you should check with the local BATFE to be sure of your local laws.

 

[hso]

BHP FAN,

When was this? Before or after the California requirement for all handgun transfers to go through an FFL?

 

[ljnowell]

I didnt think it was ilegal for a father to purchase his son a firearm as a gift, as long as the child wasnt prohibited from legally possesing a firearm.

I guess maybe me and my dealer broke the law, but I walked in and asked what he would recommend for my minor son as a first shotgun, and then he helped me pick one out and order it, etc. all knowing it was for my son. I didnt think we did anything wrong. I mean, this is exactly how my dad did it when it was my time for shotgun.

 

[paintballdude902]

im talking about something that may be a straw purchase not a father buying a gun for his son/daughter heck for my 16th birthday instead of getting a car i told my dad i wanted a shotgun and that what i got, then i went out and got my own truck with my own money months later

when he got me my revolver i was 16 he didnt have a problem doing it since a friend of his carried one hunting when they were kids and that what i used mine for for awhile. but on the flip side i also tried to get a wasr-10 on the same lines......no dice

 

[wankerjake]

I remember the purchase of my first handgun. I was 18. My dad and I went to the gun shop, I looked at and handled every pistol I thought I might want. The clerk answered my questions and gave advice. The pistol was obviously for me. When I decided my dad pulled out the money and it was purchased under his name. Not a word was said, not a question asked on their part. We didn't know it was illegal at all. They didn't say otherwise... Prescott Arizona 2001.


My brother (22 years old) went in to buy a pistol in a gun shop. He had a temporary debit card because his normal one was de-activated the day before after he got robbed. They couldn't accept it because it didn't have the Vise symbol, it was strictly debit. When I suggested putting it on my card the clerk refused to sell the gun to either of us...Tucson AZ, last December.

 

[coloradokevin]

My dad also bought a shotgun and a Glock that were obviously for me when I was underage. I looked at the gun, asked about the guns, and talked about what I wanted them for... My dad pulled out the money and filled out the yellow form when it came time to go home with the gun. Naturally, the gun store had no problems with the purchase.

While a strictly legal reading of the statutes may or may not allow such transactions, I think it is safe to say that the "father buying for son" transactions have been around for about as long as guns have existed. This is a timeless way that shooting knowledge seems to be passed from one generation to the next, and I'm sure that if I have children in the future, I'll someday find myself at the gun counter helping them to pick out their first firearm!

 

[JWF III]

Has there ever been a successful conviction of a "Straw Purchase" when a father bought a firearm for a child? Has there ever been charges filed and brought to trial for this?

I've never heard of it ever happening, but that doesn't mean that it hadn't.

I was raised in what I call "the in between time". It was after many of these laws were on the books, but people (dealers, parents, LE, DAs etc.) still had the common sense that many have lost now. (I'm 33 now.) I had 10-12 guns that were "mine" before I turned 16. Quite a few of them, my dad filled out the yellow sheet, I handed over the cash, and the dealer handed me the gun. There was no fooling anybody who the gun was for. At one purchase, I even had a Sheriffs Deputy comment that he really enjoyed seeing a kid save up money to buy a gun. Simply because he knew that same kid wouldn't be buying any kind of drugs.

By the true letter of the law, it probably is a straw purchase. And if pressed, there probably are many places in this country that a DA could get a conviction. In the county I live in (pop. <12k, and we're having the annual Deer Festival on the town square this weekend), it's safe to say that no jury would convict a father buying for his child (barring other circumstances). And no DA or Sheriff would survive the next election.

Wyman

 

[Old Fuff]

The key word here is parent (to include any other person who has physical custody or sole custody of the child).

The parent buys the firearm, and is responsible for it. The "child" can use it under the paren't supervision or an adult specified by the parent. When the child reaches the age of 18 (rifles and shotguns, and in some states handguns) or 21 (all firearms) and is not legally prohibited from owning guns they can be gifted to him or her.

State and local laws may require registration of some firearms. If so when the transfer from parent to adult child is made you have to follow whatever procedure is called for.

 

[JohnBT]

"do you think that most dealers turn somewhat of a blind eye to people buying guns for their kids in what could be a straw purchase?"

What straw purchase? It's legal. You don't think the ATF has noticed the ads for the youth-sized shotguns and small .22 rifles for children?

 

[buck460XVR]

What straw purchase? It's legal. You don't think the ATF has noticed the ads for the youth-sized shotguns and small .22 rifles for children?

+1.
Where I live, altho you must be 18 to buy a long gun, you can possess one at any age.....and altho you must be 21 to purchase a handgun, you only need to be 18 to legally possess. Same goes for ammo......altho you must be at least 18 to buy ammo for long guns, you can legally hunt with said ammo(by yourself) at 14.

 

[22-rimfire]

Parents purchase firearms for their children all the time. I believe the proper approach is for the parent to purchase the gun even if the young person chips in on the purchase, obviously handles, and perhaps chooses the exact firearm. The FFL should know that it is for their young person's use and if they are uncomfortable with the sale, they should tell the parent they are uncomfortable and not sell the firearm. Honesty is the best policy.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

If an FFL won't sell a firearm to me knowing I will give it to my grand daughter at some point because it makes him uncomfortable,he won't be selling me anything else. Maybe he would be more comfortable with an unemployment check. I understand the need to be selective and protect his license but he would not be in business long (around here) if he turned down this type of sale. Every FFL I know would not have a problem with this(accept maybe Wal-Mart).

 

[AK103K]

Under federal law, "gifting" is legal without transfer between parent and child, grandparent and grandchild, husband and wife, and vise versa.

I have yet to have a dealer who knew me, refuse to sell me a gun that they knew was for my kids. There was never a doubt who the gun was for from the start, the kids made the choice, the deal, and paid the money, I just filled out the forms. Technically, the gun and the kid are yours anyway, until they are of age, so its pretty much a moot point.

For example why would a teenage kid need anything other than a hunting rifle, shotgun, or hunting pistol?

Your kidding, right?

If they are capable, they should be able to have anything they want. What the type of weapon is, is meaningless, and only adds fuel to the anti gunners propaganda.

Believe it or dont, in the not so distant past, kids used to get real resopnsibilty at a very young age, and some still do, and they handle it very well. It seems society today, doesnt like the idea that they might be independent thinkers and want them to be constantly controled well into adulthood. Makes it a lot easier to keep the masses in line.

 

[El Hombre]

Not a straw purchase.

It's not a straw purchase. It is legal.

From the ATF website FAQ:

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

 

[MachIVshooter]

+1.
Where I live, altho you must be 18 to buy a long gun, you can possess one at any age.....and altho you must be 21 to purchase a handgun, you only need to be 18 to legally possess. Same goes for ammo......altho you must be at least 18 to buy ammo for long guns, you can legally hunt with said ammo(by yourself) at 14.

That's how it is here in CO; just federal statutes. And here a minor may lawfully possess a handgun for legitimate hunting or other sporting purposes (match, etc) and defense of real property in accordance with C.R.S. 18-12-108.5(2). And, since you must be 18 to purchase a handgun, it has to have been provided by a parent, grandparent, gaurdian, etc. to have been legally obtained by said minor.

 

[Tacbandit]

Quote by hso:
"If you want your child to learn to shoot, but they're too young to legally have the firearm without supervision then let them help you pick what is best for them to shoot, but keep it as your's until they are old enough to legally possess it."

+1, hso...well put........And in general, I'd say the dealer/salesperson knows what time it is...There's not a lot of explanation needed on our part, and I'm sure that they don't really care about the particular denomination of currency we use to pay for firearms. I guess the dealer knows that we're buying those short pink laminated-stock .22 lr Cricketts for ourselves, even when we have daughters...lol...Preserve, protect, and pass on the heritage of gun ownership that we all enjoy.

 

[dk148]

There is nothing wrong with a parent buying a firearm for their child to use. The parent is the rightful owner of the firearm, and allows their child to use the firearm for hunting or training purposes. Once the child is old enough to own the firearm legally the parent can give it to the child as a gift. State laws will dictate how the gift needs to be handled depending on what type of firearm it is.

 

[wankerjake]

Forgot to add in the second situation in my post above that we offered that we both pass a background check, but he (the clerk) would have none of it. Would that be legal or no?

 

[22-rimfire]

A gun dealer (FFL holder) has the right to deny a sale for whatever reason he/she feels is legitimate. It is their license. This whole discussion is fairly pointless about a parent buying a gun for a underaged child. I don't know many parents who shoot pink 10/22's or chipmunks. It is for their kids.

I personally have never had a problem. I think parents today actually think about the purchase of a gun for their children a little more than they might have 30 years ago. It is the Big Brother thing. I have bought rifles before I was 18 with my older brother. It was fairly obvious who the gun was for since I paid for them. Things are different out in the country for the most part. City people don't understand.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

wankerjake,given the same circumstance I wouldn't have sold the gun to you either. I think in that situation the clerk made the right call.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

do you think that most dealers turn somewhat of a blind eye to people buying guns for their kids in what could be a straw purchase?

It's not against the law to buy a gun for a child. Legally, the gun remains the property of the parents, but there is no law against buying a .22 to put under the Christmas tree.