Kilts in school?

[halvey]

You all missed the POINT...

"It's a kilt. It's going to turn heads, but I never believed it would have become what it is," Warmack said.

This kid didn't care about his heritage. He wanted ATTENTION.

 

[AStone]

You all missed the POINT...

This kid didn't care about his heritage. He wanted ATTENTION.

That's an unwarranted assertion not supported by the details of the story.

Here is a quote from the story cited in the first post of this thread:

"Warmack, a defensive lineman on the football team, lives in Jackson, a growing, largely middle-class city of about 14,000 people about 110 miles from St. Louis.

He got interested in his family's Scottish ties after seeing Mel Gibson's 1995 movie "Braveheart," about William Wallace's battle to overthrow English rule in 13th century Scotland. Warmack reads books about Scotland and visits Web sites to learn more about his family's genealogy."

Perhaps it is you that missed the point or want attention.



Nem

 

[Strings]

I hate to put it this way halvey, but so what? Show me someone at Prom that ISN'T looking for attention: EVERYBODY dresses in a way to attract attention. This guy just didn't expect it to be as big an issue as it became...

I have to agree with a previous poster: a guy in a kilt shouldn't be cause for controversy. People should shrug, and say "whatever". Point and laugh if they want. But this principal went too far...

 

[halvey]

I hate to put it this way halvey, but so what? ... People should shrug, and say "whatever". Point and laugh if they want. But this principal went too far...

If it's just a big "so what" as you say, then why did you post? I mean, you should say "so what"? and move to another thread.

Nematocyst-870
Big deal if he was into his heritage. He could have just left it at surfing the net and reading books, but he didn't. He knew wearing a kilt would get him attention.

 

[roo_ster]

Where attendance is mandatory, my teenage self had to go to school, under threat of law.

As for the 'dress code', I noticed that it doesn't restrict men to pants. As in my rebelious teenage self could show up in a sun dress*, for example, and there wouldn't be anything the principle could do about it. And I'd bet that that would be more disruptive than a utilikilt.

*I didn't do it, but yes, I have seen somebody pull a klingor during a deployment. My 'uniform' during high school was pretty much a pair of black pants and a print tshirt.

Generally, school attendance is mandatory for minor children. Mandatory or not, I 'spect your parents would have made you go to school, public or private.

I guess that what sticks in my craw is folks who live on and benefit from the suffering of others getting all bent outta shape when those others insist on some standard of performance. Getting smacked down by the reality of their circumstances is good for them. It might even inspire them to grow up a bit and do for themselves once out of school.

IMO, minor children have no rights except those that their parents allow them to exercise. This view is diametrically opposed to the Hillary Clinton view of the child as independent actor with perogatives to assert against their parents.

As to the example dress code I posted, a male arriving at school in a sun dress would likely fall under the first paragraph. It is a broadly worded catch-all and gives the call to the administrator, not the student or parent (italics mine):

The dress and grooming of Pinellas County students shall be neat and clean, promoting a positive educational environment. Apparel that disrupts educational activities and processes of the school will result in the removal of the student from the regular school environment until acceptable apparel can be secured for the student. The administration will be the final judge about whether a student’s clothing is appropriate for school or whether it will create an environmental climate that is distracting to learning. Principals, faculty, and staff members will enforce the dress code.

Jfruser, the kid wasn't kicked out of class for wearing a kilt, he was kicked out of an after-school dance. IMO, a kilt is a more formal garment than pants, given the same upper-body clothing. A kilt is perfectly appropriate for a formal or semi-formal dance. He wasn't booted for being improperly dressed, he was booted because of the principal's ignorance.

Fortunately, the principal at my high school wasn't such a schlub.

Formal, semi-formal, or not, most public & private schools give the call to the administrator. This usually includes activities that are not academic in nature but (important point to follow-->) are funded by the school/taxpayers/tuition/etc. Showing up to a kilt for a Haloween dance, a talent show, or many other such activities would likely be waved along as appropriate. Showing up to any event in the correct, formal garb of some culture that leaves any naughty bits exposed for the gawking would likely be nixed.

Once again, it is not a matter of a kilt/whatever being cool, appropriate, formal, or whatever. It is a matter of who "Pays the Cost to Be the Boss."

I am sure there are some public & private schools that would be kilt-friendly. Good for them.

 

[Mk VII]

Curious that it's always Americans who get worked up with enthusiasm about this kilts & tartan stuff, which is mostly just invented rubbish for the tourists. You won't find people in Scotland going around dressed in this stuff from day to day, outside of tourist traps (especially Lowland Scots, who regard their Highland cousins as little better than a painted savage).

 

[Strings]

jjfruser, I think i know the problem: you've got knobby knees, don't ya? So you just can't stand the thought of someone else wearing something YOU wouldn't wear...

On a serious note though: you keep harping on the school dress code, and how things "disruptive to an acedemic setting" can be banned. You even say "I guess that what sticks in my craw is folks who live on and benefit from the suffering of others getting all bent outta shape when those others insist on some standard of performance."...

But this isn't about something happening during school hours, but at a dance. Now, we had some silly rules in our dress code when I was in school, but those rules never really came up at extra curricular functions: the policy then was "if what you're wearing is legal, you're fine". Maybe you aren't realizing the difference?

 

[yonderway]

Curious that it's always Americans who get worked up with enthusiasm about this kilts & tartan stuff, which is mostly just invented rubbish for the tourists. You won't find people in Scotland going around dressed in this stuff from day to day, outside of tourist traps (especially Lowland Scots, who regard their Highland cousins as little better than a painted savage).

That's because:

1) The wearing of kilts / tartans was outlawed in Scotland over several generations.
2) The highlanders were exported to other nations during the clearances.
3) Lowland scots have no ties to the kilt.

The kilt is not invented rubbish; it is a matter of historical fact and great cultural relevance.

 

[Art Eatman]

Aye, laddie...And with the Witherspoon branch of the family tree going back to Robert the Bruce...

, Art

 

[Euclidean]

jfruser, I too will be the bad guy here and side with you.

I teach high school math for a living, and guess what, my ancestors came over from Scotland and I have a hundreds year old family heirloom to prove it. I consider myself an Texan and not a Scot because culturally that is who I am, but I'm not adverse to a kilt or what have you.

But the fact of the matter is that at school, I am required to walk the walk and talk the talk. I use appropriate language and I dress a certain way depending on what the day calls for. 80% of the time I'm in Dockers and Polos. I am on topic, attentive, and look like I'm supposed to look.

I hate Dockers and Polos. I hate them a lot. I think for comfort and utility I can think of about a million other costumes I'd rather wear. And you know what, on my own time I will wear whatever I want, but not on the student's time. They are there to be taught not to be buddy buddy with me.

I can just imagine some poor teacher like me getting raked across the coals for being the bad man who is forcing the poor youth to march with the rest of Mao's young disciples. I work in a room full of hormonal hyperactive 15 year olds from the inner city who think that every little crass or even remotely sexual thing is super funny and whom otherwise often lack any sense of decorum, tact, or manners.

Keeping order without the use of physical coercion such as policemen are entitled to use is an excercise in sheer willpower, attentiveness, charisma, and in all honesty acting like an authority figure and smothering my real personality. It's not in my nature to he hard and unbending and strict, but I do it anyway because I'm a grown man, and grown men spend 90% of their time picking up the messes of other people and doing things they have to do but don't want to.

The slightest little thing must be quelled immediately or else these students will chain react and do something worse, or even worse they will learn that it is acceptable to disrupt my class and disrespect me and my rules. I have to come down swiftly and without remorse or hesitation, or else I am meat.

Don't get me wrong, I let a lot of crap go. I'd have a heart attack if I didn't.

But I can just imagine some boy walking in with a kilt on. Oh Lord. The unison screams of "fag" would be deafening, they'd be yelling, and throwing paper... and the kid wearing the kilt would most likely be trying to goad them into a fight as the egos collided.

And then I'd send this one kid to the office to restore order, and while he was gone I'd get on my soap box and rant and rave to the rest of them how small minded they are for doing such things... blah blah blah.

Then the administration takes one look at this kid in the kilt and immediately figures out what happened. My pricipals are pretty sharp and have been doing this a long time. So what do they naturally do? They offer the young man a clean new pair of sweatpants and politely ask him to change. They know that his dress is going to disrupt the educational environment and keep the faculty and students from being able to function.

Yes that seems so silly that such a tiny thing can completely throw off an entire instituition, but the students outnumber the teachers by over 30 to 1 and the students are of a hive mentality at that age. If one of the cool kids pokes any fun at the kid in the kilt, they all will, and no rational discourse of why that is wrong will sway more than a minority of them.

So anyway the young man in the kilt will say no I will not change clothes, and the principal is stuck here. He has offered the young man a free and reasonable solution, and it has been rejected. The kid didn't do anything, but he can't go to class like that. At this point the administrator has to suck up his personal feelings of sympathy for this kid and do his job, and tell the youth he'll either put on the pants and go back to class, wait for his parents to bring him a change of clothes, or else go home for the day.

And then it hits the papers like it did here, and suddenly the school is the bad guy.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. The American educator with all of his or her acumen, expertise, and caring can do no right by simple testimony of the American politician. And they accuse us of brainwashing.

 

[mustanger98]

The other solution, and I know nobody's going to like this one, is to stick 'em all in kilts as the official school uniform. They can't laugh without laughing at themselves and nobody's a "fag" because they're all wearing the same uniform. But, like I said, nobody's going to like that because some parents, especially the ego-driven fathers, will say "they want my boy to dress like a girl and I won't have them make my boy into a sissy". But, let's say it's a private school that sets its own dress code... and let's say the school has a military bent... and some of the meanest fightin' folks in the world have worn kilts... takes the "fag" gag out of it.

 

[AStone]

So anyway the young man in the kilt will say no I will not change clothes, and the principal is stuck here. He has offered the young man a free and reasonable solution, and it has been rejected. The kid didn't do anything, but he can't go to class like that. At this point the administrator has to suck up his personal feelings of sympathy for this kid and do his job, and tell the youth he'll either put on the pants and go back to class, wait for his parents to bring him a change of clothes, or else go home for the day.

OK, one more time for the reading impaired.

The student in question was NOT - I repeat, NOT - in class.

He was at a school social function, a dance. A dance, not class.

Dances are social functions where people go to have fun.

People express themselves with their own style at a dance.

He told the vice principle about his kilt, even showed it to him.

In math class, in science class, in economics or engineering, whatever...want to have rules prohibiting kilts & requiring dress slacks or jeans? Fine. Dandy. Do it.

But this was a social function.

Sheesh.

 

[JJpdxpinkpistols]

I teach high school math for a living
<snip> And they accuse us of brainwashing.

Euclidean: I have only one thing to say: Thank you.

When I was a kid, my mother (a GTF at the U) used to say, "Those that can, do. those that can't, Teach." she was wrong.

for the record, what you described was *exactly* my experience in HS, and it is for that reason we home-school. It was always assumed that I was the "fag" and I was spitballed, and my locker destroyed and people tried to beat me up. too many hooligans, not enough control over them.

I think my children can stay home, learn shakespear and physics and wear whatever they damn well want. Heck, you haven't experienced reading class to two girls dressed in shakespearean costumes. And that was for "A wrinkle in time."

 

[Euclidean]

The student in question was NOT - I repeat, NOT - in class.

He was at a school social function

Good night folks.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I'm a neo pagan American of Scottish descent. I take part in the Highland Games every chance I have, and live in the Southern Appalachian mountains with lots of other descendants of Scottish immigrants.
I'm proud of my Scottish heritage.
I see the points of the detractors of the boys actions that have been posted on this thread. Schools are tax supported institutions. Teachers have few options since they're herding these kids to graduation.
But, as a taxpayer, I don't just pay my taxes so that kids can have a sterile school environment to learn in and do our collective will. I pay my taxes so that kids can go to school and have banned books to read, dress outrageously, and explore their artisitc side along with their left brain. And, I like helping support that.
I don't like that the Administrator threw the boy out for wearing a kilt since I'm a kilt wearing member of a Clan. I dislike even more the idea that he threw the boy out of the dance for being a little different.
I realize that teachers have tough jobs (thanks Euclidean), and its seldom easy to come up with a workable solution that "feels good" for everyone. But, I draw the line at squelching artistic and cultural expression. Even at low hanging jeans with the "draws" hanging out for all to see. Besides, being 17 and wanting attention isn't so abnormal, is it?
Alba gu bragh

 

[AStone]

Good night folks.

For the record, your quote of my statement was NOT a direct quote. You are the one that added emphasis to the word school in my quote.

If you want to play emphasis games, let's put the emphasis where it belongs.

"He was at a school social function."

If the teachers can't read and interpret a clearly-written media story, and miss repeated clarifications of this point in this thread (social function, not class), then is there any wonder that their students are being allowed to graduate without sufficient reading skills?

 

[AStone]

I realize that teachers have tough jobs (thanks Euclidean)...

Just for the record here, I was a teacher, too.

Not high school, but community college.

Mine WAS a tough job. Low pay, horrendous workload. (The college I taught at before quiting had one of the highest teaching loads in the US, and a miserable political environment. 16 of 84 full time faculty quit in one year. I was one.)

I'm now self-employed as a college-level educator, trying to teach the teachers how to teach better, and introduce them to cutting-edge, Nobel-laureate ideas in science education.

One thing I emphasize in my workshops is communication skills, including reading carefully what is printed on the page. (Critically evaluating what's printed is step 2. First, one must read carefully, lest we are talking past one another.)

With all due respect to Euclidean - I don't detract from his/her challenge as an educator - he misread the original story, and therefore, asserted an improper conclusion: that the administrator was justified in sending the student back to "class".

Let a similar error be made about a Colt 1911, or an AK-47, or any number of firearms, and members will be all over it.

Again, if the situation had occured in a classroom environment, then I'd be more likely to support the admin.

But it was in a social function.

Social.

When we begin to restrict the dress code of students at social functions - whether corporate, church or school - to prohibit ethnic dress, then things have gone too far.

 

[Ian]

I wore a kilt (and sword) to my high school classes on several occasions, days when I was going to be performing as a piper at the school Shakespeare festival (not that pipes have anything to do with Shakespeare, but the English teacher was kinda desperate). Wore the kilt (whole sorta-historical costume, in fact) to all my classes on those days. Heard significantly more positive comments from other students than negative - and I was certainly no icon of popularity. I was nervous as hell doing it - what high schooler wouldn't be? - but it was really a beneficial experience. Learning to be willing to go against the crowd is a good thing for anyone. Of course, this student has simply gotten confirmation of the opposite - that one will be punished for not conforming to the average.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Hey, good for you Ian. That's what your teen years are partly for- the trying on of different hats and experimenting with things you'd like to do.

Nematocyst, I get your point completely. I was an English Major, believe it or not.

 

[roo_ster]

OK, one more time for the reading impaired.

Sure, if you need a refresher:

In the immortal words of BB King, "I Pay the Cost to Be the Boss." If someone else is paying your way (taxpayers or your parents by way of tuition), you can just sit back and drink a nice, warm glass of **** when the folks who are paying your way say so (or their representatives say so). If they want your happy self to wear boring, squeaky-clean garb, deal with it. If you are over 18, you have no obligation to be in school and can go elsewhere to revel in your kiltedness. If you are under 18, drink that nice, warm glass when your folks say so and be downstairs at the appointed time, in appropriate dress.

Dance, classroom, whatever. It makes no difference when somebody else is footing the bill. Those who pay the bills set the rules. If kilt-boy does not like that reality, he can wwait till he is 18 and go somewhere else to wear his kilt until the cows come home.

 

[halvey]

When we begin to restrict the dress code of students at social functions - whether corporate, church or school - to prohibit ethnic dress, then things have gone too far.

Around 1988 or so, my school had a formal dance called Snoball. Had to wear a jacket, tie and slacks at least. Some tried to enter in jeans and leather jackets and they were denied. Been going on for a long time.

Bottom line is the kid wanted attention and used his "heritage" as an excuse to get it.

How is this gun related again?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Curious that it's always Americans who get worked up with enthusiasm about this kilts & tartan stuff, which is mostly just invented rubbish for the tourists. You won't find people in Scotland going around dressed in this stuff from day to day, outside of tourist traps (especially Lowland Scots, who regard their Highland cousins as little better than a painted savage).

My grandfather was in the Black Watch during WW1. He and my grandmother always hoped that I would wear the family tartan as a kilt, but I was always too conscious of peer pressure to do it. But I respectfully differ in your assessment that the enthusiasm for kilts and tartans is made up by Americans.

It's difficult for me to find anything with my family's tartan here in the U.S. I have no problem at all finding it in Nova Scotia.

 

[AStone]

Sure, if you need a refresher <quotes self>

Dance, classroom, whatever. It makes no difference when somebody else is footing the bill. Those who pay the bills set the rules. If kilt-boy does not like that reality, he can wwait till he is 18 and go somewhere else to wear his kilt until the cows come home.

I read your opinion, JF, and disagreed with it (even if not in writing on this thread).

However, I'm not complaining about people not reading opinioins. I'm complaining about people who don't read the facts of the case and mis-state them.

Here are several relevant paragraphs from the story cited in the original post of this thread:

He bought a kilt off the Internet to wear to his school's formal "Silver Arrow" dance in November. Warmack said he showed it to a vice principal before the dance, who joked he'd better wear something underneath it, and Warmack assured him he would.

Warmack's parents, Terry and Paula, helped him piece together the rest of his outfit, a white shirt and black tie with white socks and black boots.

"We knew it wasn't the formal regalia," his father said. "We wanted it to be acceptable for the occasion."

After Nathan Warmack and his date posed for pictures, principal Rick McClard, who had not previously seen the kilt, told the student he had to go change. Warmack refused a few times and said the outfit was recognizing his heritage.

Warmack alleges McClard told him: "Well, this is my dance, and I'm not going to have students coming into it looking like clowns." McClard later said he had no recollection of saying that, Warmack's dad said. The principal did not return phone calls seeking comment.

The school district's superintendent, Ron Anderson, said McClard has the authority under the district's dress code policy to judge appropriate dress for extracurricular activities, including dances.

"It's mainly to protect from the possibility of a disruption or something that could be viewed as a disruption," Anderson said.

Several Scottish heritage organizations are angry, saying the kilt is a symbol of Scottish pride and considered formal dress.

Note the following:

1) The vice-principle - one of those in charge - was ostensibly OK with the kilt being worn at the event.

2) The student's parents, some of those who are "paying the bills", supported his decision & helped him with the outfit, including white shirt & black tie.

3) The Scottish heritage organizations referenced consider the kilt as 'formal dress'.

My point is this: the fact is that he wore the kilt to a social event.

But unless there were specific, written rules about what can and cannot be worn at a school function - and we have NO information about that - then it is OPINION about whether a given piece of apparrel is 'formal' or not.

It is NOT fact that a kilt is not formal attire. {Pardon my double negative.} It is opinion, and that opinion clearly differs among the authorities (vice principle v. principle) and those 'paying the bill' (parents of the student & Scottish heritage organization {members pay taxes} v. {presumably} other parents who may have objected).

IF you or others can produce written rules of the school or school district that were in existence at the time of the event specifying exactly what apparell was acceptable at said function (and at least implicitly, what was not), and IF those rules clearly prohibit wearing a kilt or other similar garments of other cultures as formal attire, then I'll side with the principle and you, JF.

Otherwise, we're talking opinions and judgements about appropriateness of dress, and I'd say we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Nem

 

[yonderway]

Bottom line is the kid wanted attention and used his "heritage" as an excuse to get it.

Crrrrrap. Pure and utter bunk.

Since the Scottish cultural renaissance, it has been a matter of tradition for (highland derived) Scots to break out the family tartan and strap on the pleats for formal events. Go to any clan wedding and you'll see what I mean.

His discovery of his heritage was a relatively recent thing, and he found that he had quite a lot of history to catch up on. The boy's mother has been hanging out on a kilt forum that I frequent and has filled in a lot more of the back story than you've read in the press. Did he want attention? Maybe. But not necessarily the wrong kind. He was going to a dance and wanted to look damned good, and have all the lads & lasses there looking at him and saying "damn, he looks good". All of the other kids were going for the same thing. Only one of them was man enough to wear the kilt (and as the saying goes, a man in a kilt is a man and a half).

I wouldn't be surprised if this young man gets a wee escort to his prom. An entourage of pipers and well wishers from all the clans. You can't begin to imagine the support he's been getting from the Scottish community (both in and out of Scotland... including even the Scottish parliament!)

 

[yonderway]

My grandfather was in the Black Watch during WW1.

Hawkmoon, that is something that you must be terribly proud of. The Black Watch was perhaps the most revered (and feared) of the kilted regiments.

Did you perhaps get to keep any of his uniform? Did the kilt get passed down? Sporran?

I managed to get an old Black Watch sghian dubh at a gun show this year and had to wonder what sort of person would discard something like that.