Knife steel vs heat treatment

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bfalcon00

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So a question for you knife guys. I'm pretty ignorant on the whole knife thing. I usually buy something with what appears to me to be decent steel and overall design. I have read quite a few forums on this steel versus that steel ect. From what I gather the steel is important, but the heat treat is arguably more so. (Cheap steel with a good heat treat as good or better than a good steel with a bad heat treat.) So my question is this. Why is the type of steel always discussed, but not the heat treat the company uses?
Is there just no way to compare the heat treat from company to company?
 
Most folks discussing factory production knives are assuming that the factory will be following the best practices for treating a thin-section specimen of that type of steel.

There is a little bit to debate in whether this or that steel should be tempered after quench to a point or two harder, or softer, for a particular use, but otherwise proper heat treatment is assumed. Each steel has a specific heat treatment process and very specific temperatures and soak times, and tempering temperatures after quench which define how it must be treated. There are a few options (cryo treatment, for example) but for the most part it's either "right" or "wrong."

Assumed is not always realistic, but improper heat treatment would simply be a defective product -- so what's to discuss? :)

Cheap steel with a good heat treat as good or better than a good steel with a bad heat treat.
True, but that's like saying "a Camry in good running condition is better than a Ferrari with a blown up engine."

There are plenty of "cheap" common steel alloys that make really very good knife blades. A blade of 5160 or 1095 or W2 will be all the blade most users could ever want (except not stainless). Some of the less expensive stainless steels are likewise perfectly good for most folks' purposes when heat treated properly.

And then there are the super steels which fascinate knife geeks, very few of whom will ever really require those highest-performance properties, but like the cool-factor and bragging rights of having something in M390 or S35V or ELMAX, etc.

Bad heat treatment would render any steel a terrible blade.
 
I agree awth Sam good heat treat is assumed.
More important to me is steel, and even more important to me is geometry. For my everyday use 19 degrees is fine but some of my field and fighters work better at 22 - for me. Ymmv
 
Heat treating hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Pretty much the same now as it was in the Middle Ages. Steel, on the other hand, is very different.
Have a read of this. http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat4.html
"...Cheap steel with a good heat treat as good or better than a good steel with a bad heat treat..." No it isn't. Cheap steel is usually low carbon steel that's soft.
 
Welll, good heat treat is assumed unless you're pretty sure the cheap offshore junk piece is too cheap for that to have been a concern for the manufacturer.

Also, discussing heat treat is technically difficult vs. the relatively simple formulaic steel compositions. You have to get deep into the nits for that and most people don't want to invest the time in that. Go look at the deep bladesmithing forums and some of the debates on it and it gets very heady. Just look at the recommended L6 discussion - https://bainite.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/l6-steel-kinetics/

So, yes, you hope the manufacturer has optimized heat treat for the steel they use, but the details aren't going to be revealed by the manufacturers unless they're crowing about a heat treating guru, and most folks wouldn't enjoy the discussion about temps and phase changes and soaks and ....
 
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Heat treating hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Pretty much the same now as it was in the Middle Ages. Steel, on the other hand, is very different.
Have a read of this. http://www.zianet.com/ebear/metal/heattreat4.html
Citing an article from 1924 is a poor argument that heat treating hasn't changed much in hundreds of years. The reality is that high end modern steels require precisely controlled heat treatment in both time and temperature. S35VN has three 50 degree Fahrenheit windows, 1900, 1950, and 2000 degrees, for optimizing the heat treat for various characteristics*. You can't get that much precision from manually controlled open gas flame burners. S35VN (and similar steels like M390/204P, Elmax, XHP, CPM-XXXXX series, etc) also require fairly precise sub-zero freeze quenching to remove any left over austentite from the heat treating process*.

*Ref example, S35VN Data Sheet - http://www.crucible.com/PDFs\DataSheets2010\dsS35VNrev12010.pdf
 
Heat treating hasn't changed in hundreds of years. Pretty much the same now as it was in the Middle Ages. Steel, on the other hand, is very different.
I don't think that's enough of the whole picture. Heat treating carbon steals is largely the same. Heat treating a lot of the super steels is NOT. Not with vacuum furnaces, inert gas quenching, cryogenic treatment, and so forth. A lot has changed.

Cheap steel is usually low carbon steel that's soft.
There are cheap carbon steels and cheap stainless steels. And either could be good or bad quality. Price isn't the best indicator. And even a cheap steel could easily be made too hard for service. That would be bad heat treatment (poor tempering) just as too much tempering would make it too soft.
 
Inexpensive quality carbon steel like 1095 can be made brittle in heat treat such that the famously tough blades can snap like glass on impact.

Each steel has a set of curves for toughness and hardness. Push the temps and quench rates too far in any direction and it can lead to failures in the material. There are plenty of makers who have their proprietary heat treat/quench methods to make a steel perform better than the curves classically indicate and they guard that information closely while others try to puzzle it out. It can get to be very complex.
 
Just some terms as I understand them with reference to iron/steel working.

hardening = heating to a high temp which varies with what product you are trying to make followed by a rapid cooling/quenching it is generally considered better to use as little heat as possible to achieve the desired hardness that is why ice cold salt water was used in the past as the coolant im sure there is better more high tech solutions now.
with hardening most irons and steels gain in brittleness which in the extreme can shatter
on impact that is why iron/steels that have been hardened will often also need Tempering which is a heating to a mid/low temp followed by a slow controlled cooling gives the steel a greater flexability/resiliance.hardening followed by tempering is how springs such as might have been used in
medeival crossbows or early firearms may have been made.

Annealing is the making softer more malleable often done in a fire by heating to a mid high
heat and holding at that temperature for a period of time.carbon steels are made softer by being burned in a low fire that is why nails burned in firewood are near useless as nails afterward they have been annealed and given up some of their carbon to boot.

To the original question my opinion is that cheap steel can be made to the highest of quality with the correct and expierienced treatment.there was even a youtube vid of some guy that tried to outperform a traditional Japanese blade by using modern steels and metalurgy he failed and put his failure down to the skill of the traditional japanese swordsmith taking junk iron and working it into the legendary japanese sword.

So yes the heat treating used is of very great importance but over most peoples heads
and will mean nothing to most of us beyond the quality of the blade in tested use and in my opinion the exact should be said of steel types.
 
hardening = heating to a high temp ... followed by a rapid cooling/quenching
Right! The simplest steels can generally be hardened by heating until a magnet no longer sticks to it and then quickly quenched.

it is generally considered better to use as little heat as possible to achieve the desired hardness
Well, each steel has it's "critical temperature" and going far beyond that isn't a good idea. However, if properly quenched the steel will be at its maximum hardness at that point. You don't go higher or lower to achieve different hardnesses. You go above critical, quench, and then draw it back down to the hardness you want through tempering.

that is why ice cold salt water was used in the past as the coolant im sure there is better more high tech solutions now.
I've not heard of ice cold being important, but the most common quenching medium is/was generally oil of some sort. And, contrary to intuition, oil often works better for fastest quenching if it is heated a bit (~150 deg. F) BEFORE dipping your critical-heated piece of steel into it. It will be thinner at 150 deg., and thus flow around faster, drawing heat out more quickly.

with hardening most irons and steels gain in brittleness which in the extreme can shatter on impact that is why iron/steels that have been hardened will often also need Tempering
Hardness and toughness sort of fight against each other. If you try to use your new blade at full hardness it will sure cut well (if you can sharpen it) and it will be very wear resistant because it is so hard. However, that edge will be very fragile and will likely chip with much use. Plus the blade itself will have little flexibility and will snap in two if bent at all.

A blade that's properly tempered will be hard enough to be wear resistant but will still be able to flex without snapping, and the edge can take an impact without cracking or chipping. The drawing back down to proper temper is a balance you have to strike.

which is a heating to a mid/low temp followed by a slow controlled cooling gives the steel a greater flexability/resiliance.hardening followed by tempering is how springs such as might have been used in
medeival crossbows or early firearms may have been made.
Again, :), that's kind of crossways.
1) Heat to critical.
2) Quench. This is shock cooling from thousands of degrees down to below 200 degrees or so in order to freeze the steel in it's hardened phase.
3) Temper: This is a long heat soak at ~400-500 degrees F. to draw the temper down from super-hard/brittle to working hard and resilient. (Exact tempering temperatures are very dependent on the exact steel alloy and what hardness number you're aiming for.)

Annealing is the making softer more malleable often done in a fire by heating to a mid high heat and holding at that temperature for a period of time.
Right. Annealing is heating and then long slow cooling (often packed into heat-retaining sand or whatever) to produce the closest to "dead soft" state so that the steel is easiest to work with tools.

To the original question my opinion is that cheap steel can be made to the highest of quality with the correct and expierienced treatment
Ok, for clarity, there are plenty of steels, and a lot of very cheap mystery alloy steels, which really can't be made into a decent blade by even the best heat treating. Some steels are just not capable of holding a decent, durable edge.

there was even a youtube vid of some guy that tried to outperform a traditional Japanese blade by using modern steels and metalurgy he failed and put his failure down to the skill of the traditional japanese swordsmith taking junk iron and working it into the legendary japanese sword.
I'm not familiar with that exact video, but it certainly is possible that a modern bladesmith didn't exceed some characteristics of an antique blade with the treatment he applied to some modern steel. It is probably not accurate to say that the most appropriate modern steel (there are hundreds) couldn't be chosen and properly heat treated such that it could exceed the edge retention and/or durability of "any" antique blade. There certainly were amazing blade makers in antiquity. It is easy, though, to adopt unreasonable mystical beliefs about what they could achieve with primitive means and materials. They weren't using "junk iron" to make blades, but the best material they were able to find or make -- often combined through various forge-welding processes to bind hard edge material with tough spine metal.

So yes the heat treating used is of very great importance but over most peoples heads and will mean nothing to most of us beyond the quality of the blade in tested use and in my opinion the exact should be said of steel types.
Yes, that is so. The more you study blades and steels and metallurgy the stronger opinions you may develop about blade steels and the more complex and rigorous tests you might perform to prove the specific superiority of this super-alloy over that one.

For most of us, we'd be quite well served by a well-made blade (or six! ;)) in a simple carbon or stainless steel, and if we just plain want something a bit extra special, we're going to have to take manufacturers' and reviewers' words for it. :)
 
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When I was commenting on the recent Valkman thread I mentioned that the CPM154 knife he made for me was heat treated by BOS and so stamped. While CPM can be treated by more primative methods I certainly have more confidence that BOS did it which specializes in heat treating. The L6 meentioned to get that magic quality it can posses is certainly a good example of steel a back yard or garage operation cannot usually do . So to answer the OP; yes we do discuss the heat treating quite a bit when we talk about custom blades.
 
Sam ice cold saturated salt water was used because it got the coldest best heat conducting medium this allowed a better quench with less initial heat.

try it yourself with some nails or something

I cant speak for all the modern steel types but mild steel and iron need to be brought up to almost melt temp to get to a hardess suitable for springs or chisels even using the salt water quench I would be surprised if a oil quench would even work but I dont know?I guess with the oil quench you may be able to get it colder than the salt water ill have to try it.the only time ive tried an oil quench was when i was aiming for a bit of "Bluing".

Ill also have to disagree about always going above or to "critical temp" (not that id even have any way to know for sure what that is)
blue,cherry red,red.orange,yellow and white are the temp ranges i work with there are times when you wont want to even get close.This may be just my opinion based on how much work I want to put into something but I can think of many examples of items i would never bring to very high temps.

wood axe is one for a couple of reasons, gun barrel,frame or recievers,small intricate parts that dont need uber hardness or springiness.

I cant speak for junk/mystery steels I know they are out there but for all i know they could be some form of cast and they dont generally get included in anything i want to forge with.

I agree with this

For most of us, we'd be quite well served by a well-made blade (or six! ) in a simple carbon or stainless steel, and if we just plain want something a bit extra special, we're going to have to take manufacturers' and reviewers' words for it.
 
Why is the type of steel always discussed, but not the heat treat the company uses?
As hso has already noted, most companies start with the manufacturer recommended data and then experiment with the temper cycles to get what they want. We can have the blade hardness tested after the fact, but that doesn't tell us much about how the toughness of the blade has been effected by the heat treat. We have to look for signs like edges rolling vs. chipping.

The third factor (really factors 3A, 3B, and 3C) that you didn't mention are blade thickness at the spine, grind geometry and type, and edge geometry. In addition we also have to look at finely or coarsely the edge is polished at that given geometry, so I guess that's 3D.

Is there just no way to compare the heat treat from company to company?
Not really. We know Chris Reeve Knives treats their S35VN a point or two lower in Rockwell C scale hardness than Spyderco in order gain toughness and ease of field sharpening at the expense of longer edge retention. Outside of those two examples it's easier to compare different steels within a manufacturer when the option is offered on identical or very similar blades.
 
I'm afraid there's a lot about heat treatment of steels that you don't understand. Reading this would make a good first step in understanding what's actually going on: http://www.threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html

Sam ice cold saturated salt water was used because it got the coldest best heat conducting medium this allowed a better quench with less initial heat.
Less initial heat? That doesn't make sense. You're either above the critical temperature or you are not. You're either converting the steel to a hardened form or you are not. See the explanation given below.

I cant speak for all the modern steel types but mild steel and iron need to be brought up to almost melt temp to get to a hardess suitable for springs or chisels
Mild steel and iron are not hardenable like high carbon steels. Case hardening may be possible but that's a totally different process with far more limited qualities.

Ill also have to disagree about always going above or to "critical temp" (not that id even have any way to know for sure what that is)
blue,cherry red,red.orange,yellow and white are the temp ranges i work with there are times when you wont want to even get close.

If you are hardening steel for making a knife or tool, you're wasting your time if you aren't getting above the critical temperature so that the steel converts to its austenite crystal structure. If you don't know what the critical temperature of the steel you want to use is, look it up. These things have been known and understood for centuries at this point. A good rule of thumb for common tool steels is that heating until a magnet won't stick is a good indicator that you've exceeded the critical temperature and will be able to quench the item and freeze it in its predominately martensite state.

From the brief explanation quoted above:
As the steel is heated above the critical temperature, about 1335°F (724°C), it undergoes a phase change, recrystallizing as austenite. Continued heating to the hardening temperature, 1450-1500°F (788-843°C) ensures complete conversion to austenite. At this point the steel is no longer magnetic, and its color is cherry-red.

If the austenitic steel ... it is cooled suddenly by quenching in a bath of oil, a new crystal structure, martensite, is formed.
 
And if you push the temps to far above critical too long you can "burn the steel up" and ruin it as well.
 
I've never heard of using ice cold water for quenching, and have never heard of a knifemaker using it. I only HT'd O1 myself and would take it to non-magnetic, then quench in vegetable oil. I normally did not heat it up and never had a problem. I have bent a knife I HT'd 90 degrees and it did not break so I think they were good. They got very sharp and kept an edge also.
 
I've never heard of anyone hardening a common nail either.

They average nail doesn't have enough carbon in it to harden it in anything, short of case hardening compound or bone charcoal to add carbon atoms to it.

rc
 
mild steel and iron are hardenable ive done it many times and made some very resilient blades as well if you are going to try working with some of the older more traditional iron and steel you will find you need to get the item to a greater heat than with higher carbon steel but its entirely possible.and i know what case hardening is and this is not that.

yes RC common nails can be hardened

maybee no one believes you can because you all didnt know about ice cold saturated
salt water.so before you say it cant be done i challenge someone here who does do some true forging to have a go and report back.

if anybody wants to try it i bet you could test it for yourself with a propane torch
some mild steel wire or common nails, a cup of ice cold saturated salt water,and a cup of oil for comparison.

no Sam you dont always have to get to some magical critical temp perhaps that is the optimal but hardening can be achieved through a wide range of temps the biggest secret is the rapid change in temp creates the crystal structure this is something you can also test for yourself pretty easily
 
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i challenge someone here who does do some true forging

I'm an American Bladesmith Society Apprentice smith and have been involved with forging knives in one way or another for over a decade. I've been to various hammer-ins with some of the best bladesmiths in the world and sat in seminars of others on heat treat and metallurgy and on water quenched steel. I also came out of the Oak Ridge National Laboratory Metals and Ceramics division.

This is the summary of what I know about brine quench (not ice brine) -

Salt water (normal, not iced) quench cools quicker because bubble formation that slows the heat transfer is altered. Brine produces smaller bubbles and they rupture more easily allowing for more rapid cooling of the steel than with plain water.

For very low carbon steels it has little or no effect at all. Some claims have been made and demonstrated that it will produce a hardness from 43-45 Rc (instead of ~20Rc) when mixed with wetting agents. Others say it helps when quenching railroad spike knives while others disagree. Durability of the edges produced isn't great where the quench had been effective. The best formula for this comes from Los Alamos National Laboratory and Rob Gunter.

For medium carbon steels it will make them harder than an oil quench will.

For high carbon and many high alloy steels it will cause them to crack or shatter when quenched. Too high a cooling rate.

This is the first time I've ever read about ice cold salt water forging.
 
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hso that pretty much agrees with what ive expierienced but i would be in the group that says it helps.
 
But your claim was iced brine as opposed to brine and that's the first I've heard of that and it should produce no benefit vs. brine quench since the difference between -2C degree brine and 21C degree brine is trivial compared to a 1550 - 900 temp steel quenched down to ~400. The rate of quench in water or brine is critically dependent on avoiding an insulating gas jacket on the steel and that's what brine or super quench helps prevent. The objective is to hit the cooling curve that gets the steel to the right point of Austenite vs Pearlite vs Martensite.

ttt1.jpg


BTW, this is a great little paper of interest to this discussion. http://www.education.rkptech.com/tttdiagram.html
 
hso what you said about brine may be correct as well but more importantly
the salt in the water is a excelent conductor both of electricity and heat
its used in many applications where rapid cooling is desired but bubbles may not be created it also lowers the freeze point of the water.


also i dont know for sure if there is a difference between brine and a totally saturated solution
 
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damoc, where in NV are you and let's see some knives you've made with the ice cold quench. I know many knifemakers and have never heard of it, and I'm in Pahrump about an hour from Vegas.
 
NE NV ok but i dont do pretty knives/swords I have a old one made from
mild steel that i may be able to demonstrate its flexability and resiliance
need to get out the camera
 
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