Sylvan-Forge
Member
I take issue with it.
Trying to tell me how to think?
Latest in the Front Sight wars
- Thread starter Rick_Eabos
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I take issue with it.
Trying to tell me how to think?
Back in 2002, during the Diana Mertz-Hsieh flap, Piazza told DMH in an e-mail that he uses the Hubbard Management System. For an explanation of what that entails, see their own words:
http://www.wise.org/en_US/l-ron-hubbard/what-is/index.html
http://www.wise.org/en_US/l-ron-hubbard/what-is/index.html
It seems to me the main point is Piazza's questionable business dealings.
Toss in a kooky* religion, over-the-top marketing, and a dash of chiropractic quackery & you have a juicy backdrop.
If he is innocent, I hope he & his are cleared and can get back to thier business. If he is dirty, he and his inner Thetan can have their selves chucked into the pokey.
* sci/fi, paranoid, legal intimidation tactics
Toss in a kooky* religion, over-the-top marketing, and a dash of chiropractic quackery & you have a juicy backdrop.
If he is innocent, I hope he & his are cleared and can get back to thier business. If he is dirty, he and his inner Thetan can have their selves chucked into the pokey.
* sci/fi, paranoid, legal intimidation tactics
Nope. Just trying not to get an informative thread locked because people decided to focus on what the relevant individuals believe rather than what they are doing.
But if you want to do said individuals a service, go ahead and focus on the religion. The thread will get locked for posts being in violation of the rules we all agreed to, and the majority of people will not get to see it as it trundles off the front page.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Ya got three things going here: Scientology; the quality of the gun-training, and the business dealings of Piazza.
Forget the Scientology. That's off to the side and not germane.
The majority of several years' worth of posts about the training have been positive. The $$$ vs. quality is an individual opinion and for this thread is no more than a comment in passing.
The real issue is the business dealings. If the allegations against Piazza are correct, we could be affected by losing a training operation.
So stay focussed on the main issue and please omit the extraneous.
Art
Forget the Scientology. That's off to the side and not germane.
The majority of several years' worth of posts about the training have been positive. The $$$ vs. quality is an individual opinion and for this thread is no more than a comment in passing.
The real issue is the business dealings. If the allegations against Piazza are correct, we could be affected by losing a training operation.
So stay focussed on the main issue and please omit the extraneous.
Art
The Drew
Member
I think the defrauded "investors" should sue for the facility and the land/water rights... that way someone can continue and actually maybe realize the vision...
I would point out that this whole tale may just be another reminder that someone who is a credible professional in one or more areas, may not be in others.
Remember that Doug MacArthur was a pretty darn good general until he forgot who his boss was. But, he turned out to be a really bad politician.
Politicians use this against us all the time. We tend to extend credibility from one area to another, and there is absolutely no reason we should. Just because someone is a good politician does not mean he knows how to run the whole health care system. Just because someone is a great MD does not make him qualified to manage a health care facility. coachs might be great at winning athletic contests, but really rotten at teaching their athletes to be good human beings.
Remember that Doug MacArthur was a pretty darn good general until he forgot who his boss was. But, he turned out to be a really bad politician.
Politicians use this against us all the time. We tend to extend credibility from one area to another, and there is absolutely no reason we should. Just because someone is a good politician does not mean he knows how to run the whole health care system. Just because someone is a great MD does not make him qualified to manage a health care facility. coachs might be great at winning athletic contests, but really rotten at teaching their athletes to be good human beings.
Jay Kominek
Member
Yow, I just read a bunch of the complaint, because I was curious about what the deal with Front Sight Alaska was.
If even a quarter of this complaint is true, well, wow. I suggest anyone who is going to comment one way or the other actually read it.
My four days at Front Sight were fun, but the management/high-levelish types that spoke gave me a funny feeling. The instructors themselves were fine. If you've got the money and the inclination, I wouldn't discourage anyone from going. If only so that more people can get the same funny feeling. I don't think sending more shooters his way will significantly improve Piazza's long term financial situation. Just don't pay $20k for "secrets".
If the legal complaint has even one foot to stand on, Piazza has already failed, and we're just waiting for the courts to make it official.
For those who haven't been to FS, I should point out that the "free course" certificates that Piazza throws around like candy, are totally legit. The legal complaint calls them advertising, which they are, but there is no hidden anything involved in them (the only "catch" is that a certificate can only be used by someone who hasn't attended an FS class before). I was given one of the certificates by a friend, and used it to take my rifle class there. My cost was $50 for their background check, gas, ammo, and food. That's it. For an initial training class for someone, I think the FS certificates are the best deal going. You can often find them cheap on the web (there are two on ebay right now without reserves), and the training quality is quite good, without being too ninja-oriented.
Sylvan-Forge
Member
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Last edited:
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
To quote IAN
[(the only "catch" is that a certificate can only be used by someone who hasn't attended an FS class before).]
I would run and not walk to the nearest exit and do it in a big hurry. Nothing in this world is "free", nothing. The air that you breathe isn't free. IMHO the reason that they are mailing out those certificates is simply to bait gullible people. I hate sharks who do that.
[(the only "catch" is that a certificate can only be used by someone who hasn't attended an FS class before).]
I would run and not walk to the nearest exit and do it in a big hurry. Nothing in this world is "free", nothing. The air that you breathe isn't free. IMHO the reason that they are mailing out those certificates is simply to bait gullible people. I hate sharks who do that.
GAC
Member
I attended the half day subgun course in 2000 or 2001. Ever since then I have been getting mailers from Front Sight. The mail has even followed me from AZ to WI.
Each time I get the latest mailing I think, "That Ponzi scheme is still working?" when I read about the "great deals" and "one time opportunit[ies]" they keep offering.
Each time I get the latest mailing I think, "That Ponzi scheme is still working?" when I read about the "great deals" and "one time opportunit[ies]" they keep offering.
I understand. The FS certificates are an advertising ploy. They expect that enough new students will buy memberships to cover the cost of the free classes given away, and make some profit on top. What I'm saying is that it's a legit advertising ploy, not a scam. You can use the certificate, take a class, ignore the membership offer, and get good training for very little cost. I know this because it's exactly what I did.
There's really no pressure to join FS. They give you a short schpiel during lunch one day about the "great benefits!" of joining, but that's it.
On the Alaskan front, someone arrived at FSAK yesterday and did a lot of firing. From the sound, I would say pistol first, then some rifle or high-powered handgun.
They've already missed the first scheduled courses. I figure the noise is probably Ackman making a display to show they're still in business. No noise today, however, and nothing scheduled until Friday. I hear from people who should know that repossession is imminent; big balloon payment due.
The proposed schedule for FSAK:
http://www.frontsight.com/alaska/schedule.asp?View=List&CourseID=
They've already missed the first scheduled courses. I figure the noise is probably Ackman making a display to show they're still in business. No noise today, however, and nothing scheduled until Friday. I hear from people who should know that repossession is imminent; big balloon payment due.
The proposed schedule for FSAK:
http://www.frontsight.com/alaska/schedule.asp?View=List&CourseID=
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bill2
Member
I attended my third class at Front Sight
this past Memorial Day, a 4 day shotgun course, and really liked it. I also posted a write up in the tactics forum. Scientology was never mentioned; I also heard the sales pitches on Alaska and first family memberships (I joined years ago) and didn't think that they were too hard sell (I've experienced worse). The instructors were very professional and helpful. As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, this has 3 parts - scientology, gun courses, and business dealings. The first I don't pay any attention to, the second I really enjoy, and the third - well... I'll wait to see how it all plays out. In the meantime I won't make any further investments, beyond the first family membership I've already got, until it gets sorted out.
this past Memorial Day, a 4 day shotgun course, and really liked it. I also posted a write up in the tactics forum. Scientology was never mentioned; I also heard the sales pitches on Alaska and first family memberships (I joined years ago) and didn't think that they were too hard sell (I've experienced worse). The instructors were very professional and helpful. As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, this has 3 parts - scientology, gun courses, and business dealings. The first I don't pay any attention to, the second I really enjoy, and the third - well... I'll wait to see how it all plays out. In the meantime I won't make any further investments, beyond the first family membership I've already got, until it gets sorted out.
No_Brakes23
Member
That might explain why the Rondroid army of Lawyers hasn't come to his defense in this matter.
At any rate, it is a shame to lose what might very well be a quality training facility.
larry_minn
Member
If I lived half way close I would likely be a member. For what is offered/price its a good deal. (forget the housing idea)
I would likely take 4 classes a year or more.
I would likely take 4 classes a year or more.
Looks like a settlement in the lawsuit is getting close.
http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5153839&nav=168Y
Judge Rules in 'Disneyland for Gun Lovers' Lawsuit
July 17, 2006 02:44 PM CDT
Build Your Own Newscast
Judge Rules in 'Disneyland for Gun Lovers' Lawsuit
Front Sight Resorts billed the 550-acre master planned community as a Disneyland for gun enthusiasts.
A class action lawsuit against the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute near Pahrump may be close to a settlement. A judge's ruling has prompted the two sides to start talking.
Three front sight members filed a class action lawsuit last November, each with the same goal to ensure the survival of the organization while forcing it to make good on its promises.
Nine months later their attorney says they may have just hit their mark.
Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Front Sight's creator, billed the 550-acre master planned community as a Disneyland for gun enthusiasts.
Piazza said, "The vision out here at Front Sight is to have the safest town in America."
Thousands of people bought in with memberships ranging in price from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most were guaranteed a lifetime of weapons training and six figure deals, called platinum memberships, promised a one-acre homesite.
Dr. Piazza said, "At some point in the future when the development is completed, they'll have access to a one-acre home site and we'll deed it out to them."
Bill Haag thought he'd retire on the range. But one year became three, became five with his dream home no closer to completion.
Attorney Keith Greer said, "That's what happened here. Piazza took other people's money for investment capital to start his operation and when he got it up and running he hung them out to dry. There's been no water, no roads, no grating, no electricity."
In November 2005, Greer filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of Haag and two other members. In it he charged fraud, racketeering and misappropriation of funds by Piazza and the organization.
After months of litigation in federal court, a judge ruled Front Sight could no longer sell memberships without court approval.
Settlement discussions began the same day.
Greer continued, "We tried to structure things so that the end result would end up helping both sides. Give the members the security they were looking for and the company the security it was looking for to maintain its position in the market."
Greer won't discuss specifics only to say the tentative agreement will benefit all members. Like Haag, who believed in the "Disneyland for Gun Lovers" and only to ended up feeling taken for a ride.
The judge stayed his order for 90 days to give both sides time to work out a deal, which means Front Sight can sell memberships unless settlement talks break down.
The next hearing is scheduled for October 2006, but Greer tells the I-Team he hopes to have an announcement soon.
http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5153839&nav=168Y
Judge Rules in 'Disneyland for Gun Lovers' Lawsuit
July 17, 2006 02:44 PM CDT
Build Your Own Newscast
Judge Rules in 'Disneyland for Gun Lovers' Lawsuit
Front Sight Resorts billed the 550-acre master planned community as a Disneyland for gun enthusiasts.
A class action lawsuit against the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute near Pahrump may be close to a settlement. A judge's ruling has prompted the two sides to start talking.
Three front sight members filed a class action lawsuit last November, each with the same goal to ensure the survival of the organization while forcing it to make good on its promises.
Nine months later their attorney says they may have just hit their mark.
Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Front Sight's creator, billed the 550-acre master planned community as a Disneyland for gun enthusiasts.
Piazza said, "The vision out here at Front Sight is to have the safest town in America."
Thousands of people bought in with memberships ranging in price from a few thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most were guaranteed a lifetime of weapons training and six figure deals, called platinum memberships, promised a one-acre homesite.
Dr. Piazza said, "At some point in the future when the development is completed, they'll have access to a one-acre home site and we'll deed it out to them."
Bill Haag thought he'd retire on the range. But one year became three, became five with his dream home no closer to completion.
Attorney Keith Greer said, "That's what happened here. Piazza took other people's money for investment capital to start his operation and when he got it up and running he hung them out to dry. There's been no water, no roads, no grating, no electricity."
In November 2005, Greer filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of Haag and two other members. In it he charged fraud, racketeering and misappropriation of funds by Piazza and the organization.
After months of litigation in federal court, a judge ruled Front Sight could no longer sell memberships without court approval.
Settlement discussions began the same day.
Greer continued, "We tried to structure things so that the end result would end up helping both sides. Give the members the security they were looking for and the company the security it was looking for to maintain its position in the market."
Greer won't discuss specifics only to say the tentative agreement will benefit all members. Like Haag, who believed in the "Disneyland for Gun Lovers" and only to ended up feeling taken for a ride.
The judge stayed his order for 90 days to give both sides time to work out a deal, which means Front Sight can sell memberships unless settlement talks break down.
The next hearing is scheduled for October 2006, but Greer tells the I-Team he hopes to have an announcement soon.
larry_minn
Member
IIRC the guy who started the complaints has been to a INSANE number of classes at FS. Something about over 20 classes a year. (he wanted to get his money worth)
I love the claim "Three front sight members filed a class action lawsuit last November, each with the same goal to ensure the survival of the organization while forcing it to make good on its promises"
Dang I hope I get there before they force it closed. Didn't they make a ton of offers to these three? I recall reading they were offered a number of options.
For me I think they should take total amount they paid to FS over yrs. Subtract (normal) cost for every class/event they took part in and pay them the difference. (which is much more then they desearve) The guy paid $20k (I don't know numbers) and has taken 15 classes a year for 6 yrs. 90 classes with most being 2 day classes at $200 (making up numbers all the way mind you) is $18000. Give him $2k and goodbye.
I read info 4+yrs ago and it was clear it was a VISION of future. Only a idiot would think it would happen quick. You need TONS of money to build a community. (all those elected Officials/inspectors to bribe) I mean pay permitting fees to. A good water source is not easy in some areas and good sewer the same.
You should keep in mind how many times Donald Trump has lost his fortune/made bad investments/builds. He has gone from multi millionair to broke.
Could FS have gone forward with building without enough funds? Would that have caused the entire (vision) to fail? I don't have 10% of info needed to GUESS at that.
I just know with what I read yrs ago I understood the RISKS were there. Course then again I invested in a business where I could loose my shirt and realize I WILL BE TO BLAME if it happens. I did basic research and the rewards made the risk acceptable (if I am wrong I will need a beer)
I love the claim "Three front sight members filed a class action lawsuit last November, each with the same goal to ensure the survival of the organization while forcing it to make good on its promises"
Dang I hope I get there before they force it closed. Didn't they make a ton of offers to these three? I recall reading they were offered a number of options.
For me I think they should take total amount they paid to FS over yrs. Subtract (normal) cost for every class/event they took part in and pay them the difference. (which is much more then they desearve) The guy paid $20k (I don't know numbers) and has taken 15 classes a year for 6 yrs. 90 classes with most being 2 day classes at $200 (making up numbers all the way mind you) is $18000. Give him $2k and goodbye.
I read info 4+yrs ago and it was clear it was a VISION of future. Only a idiot would think it would happen quick. You need TONS of money to build a community. (all those elected Officials/inspectors to bribe) I mean pay permitting fees to. A good water source is not easy in some areas and good sewer the same.
You should keep in mind how many times Donald Trump has lost his fortune/made bad investments/builds. He has gone from multi millionair to broke.
Could FS have gone forward with building without enough funds? Would that have caused the entire (vision) to fail? I don't have 10% of info needed to GUESS at that.
I just know with what I read yrs ago I understood the RISKS were there. Course then again I invested in a business where I could loose my shirt and realize I WILL BE TO BLAME if it happens. I did basic research and the rewards made the risk acceptable (if I am wrong I will need a beer)
If Trump had gotten people to invest in something he knew would fail, he would have gone from tycoon to prisoner. That's what is being alleged here: that Piazza knew things were going wrong yet failed to disclose the matters, and he sold memberships to prop things up and line his pocket.
Once again, the accusation is that the information being provided to investors was deliberately false. It's one thing to invest in a business venture that involves some risk but in which said risks are roughly defined or ascertainable; it's another to invest in a business venture in which the most significant risks are being actively concealed.
ArmandTanzarian
Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2006
- Messages
- 57
Isn't litigation FUN?!
I can separate the training from the other jazz. I wouldn't buy a membership due to the poor financial management of them, and arguable/alleged fraud. But if I had the time & money for a gun course, they'd still be on the short list. They're supposed to be very good in the training.
Hee... yes there are similarities. But to be fair, I think that he had good intentions on the membership thing, and just wasted/spent the money. Poor financial management coupled with not enough sales fast enough - went south. However, I could be wrong - he could have made intentional misrepresentations.
That 'religion', OTOH, is pure hogwash and money-making cult from the get-go.
I can separate the training from the other jazz. I wouldn't buy a membership due to the poor financial management of them, and arguable/alleged fraud. But if I had the time & money for a gun course, they'd still be on the short list. They're supposed to be very good in the training.
Hee... yes there are similarities. But to be fair, I think that he had good intentions on the membership thing, and just wasted/spent the money. Poor financial management coupled with not enough sales fast enough - went south. However, I could be wrong - he could have made intentional misrepresentations.
That 'religion', OTOH, is pure hogwash and money-making cult from the get-go.
Jim March
Member
When you sell investments, you're supposed to do full disclosure. Withhold key data and you'll fry in court eventually, civil or criminal will be a race to see which is first...
Still nothing happening at Front Sight Alaska. I see Arnie Lerma has reposted Gamburd's "The Fourth Secret".
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecretGONE.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/scientologyscandals/fourthsecretGONE.htm
Front Sight Is No More
I just heard that all of Front Sight's assets have been placed in escrow. The Pahrump facility will be sold to housing developers. The situation up here is so confused that the acuual ownership of the property is questionable. Apparently Front Sight soon will be no more. Sad for those who were defrauded, but good news for my neighbors and me.
I just heard that all of Front Sight's assets have been placed in escrow. The Pahrump facility will be sold to housing developers. The situation up here is so confused that the acuual ownership of the property is questionable. Apparently Front Sight soon will be no more. Sad for those who were defrauded, but good news for my neighbors and me.
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