Law Enforcement, training, and sidearm capacity

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Candiru

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A while back, I read a thread on TFL that got me thinking. The original poster of that thread espoused his belief that law enforcement would be well served returning to revolvers. His argument was that revolvers would directly enhance public image of police by moving away from a style of sidearm widely considered to be "militaristic" as well as indirectly, by discouraging spray-and-pray incidents or reducing the impact thereof. Additionally, he argued, public safety would be enhanced by reducing the number of rounds an undertrained shooter would mag-dump under stress.

The poster was rightly criticized for specifying a global equipement solution to a training problem. A lot of the criticism he received, though, equated reducing the number of rounds available to an LEO to endangering said LEO's life. It appeared to me that there is a widespread perception that more rounds are better and semi-autos are preferable to revolvers, but how accurate is this perception? Is a lightly-trained person who doesn't particularly care about firearms better served by a revolver or a semi-auto? Is the perception based on reality, or is it an assumption that foster sloppy shooting?

I think one solution to the issue could be to provide moonclipped revolvers as standard sidearms for LEOs, but permit those who chose to undergo more extensive training and qualification regimens to carry single-action semi-autos in the same caliber. Ammo compatibility would be maintained, training and equipment would be better matched, and if the caliber chosen was .45ACP there would be few objections to efficacy.

All of the above is just one man's opinions, though, and I'd love to know what others think on the subject.
 
I think folks have forgotten why revolvers were replaced with the semi-auto pistol. Fire power was an added bonus, but not the primary reason.
 
I think one solution to the issue could be to provide moonclipped revolvers as standard sidearms for LEOs,
Whoa, there ... There's a host of reasons why going back to revolvers is not a good idea. And sorry, let's not gear equipment to the lowest common denominator. Bottom line is, semiautos are still generally the easier handgun for the majority of people to shoot in terms of putting shots downrange quickly and accurately; revolver DA trigger pull is just tougher to master if one wants to shoot fast.

Even with moonclips, unless you're Jerry Miculek, almost everyone can reload a semiauto far faster than they can a revolver.
 
This subject can often be a thought-provoking one ... or simply a provoking one ... depending.;)

When we first transitioned from .357 Magnum revolvers as issued weapons (and approved calibers for personally carried service revolvers included .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, . 41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP/.45 Colt revolvers) to lightweight 9mm pistols, the fellow in charge of the Firearms Training Unit advocating the change explained the basic reasons as increased fire power before reloading, faster & easier reloading, more ammunition reserve carried on the person, a lighter weapon carried on the belt and more controllability with the 9mm cartridge.

Like many other agencies, we discovered that our people's qualification scores immediately improved with the 9mm pistols, too. The .357 Magnum cartridge had always given a number of our folks some controllability problems, and 158gr LSWC +P ammunition was provided for qualification (the explanation being primarily for reasons of cost, but lesser recoil was also a result), although .357 Magnum could be used at the expense of the individual user/shooter (as if cops would spend a nickel more of their own money than was required on something like ammunition ;) ). I switched over to training and qualification with the .357 Magnum ammunition I carried, and it was certainly expensive ... but I felt it was a worthwhile investment. I think I logged more than 3,500+ rounds of Magnum ammunition through my second 686 4" revolver by the time I turned it in on my first 9mm pistol.

If I remember right, since that time the most rounds fired in a single shooting has been 8-rounds, and the least was 2 rounds (notwithstanding the shooting of animals).

Some agencies have experienced sympathetic fire issues in some shooting situations, and having more magazine capacity can certainly add some rounds to the equation when considered against revolver capacity. Granted, that's generally considered to be a training & judgment issue ...

The ammunition capacity consideration can be debated back and forth. Smaller caliber pistols with 15-17 round magazines ... medium caliber pistols with 11-15 round magazines ... and large caliber pistols with 7-8 round magazines ... are all popular, and the number of spare magazines carried on the person seems to vary a bit, as well. That can sometimes negate the argument for 'high capacity' being a 'must-have' consideration, to some extent. When these issues aren't regulated by policy they can be subject to individual personal preference ...

Nowadays we have some 8-round .357 magnum revolvers available, and 8-round speedloaders.

The return of some all-steel weapons to L/E holsters can also affect the 'lighter weight' argument to some degree. Some all-steel L/E pistols, especially when loaded, weigh within an ounce or two of what a 686 4" revolver weighs. Then again, the extra weight can help mitigate felt recoil and enhance controllability for some folks.

The heavier revolver DA trigger stroke was always something that gave some folks problems. I remember when one of the physical agility tests was being able to rapidly cycle (dry-fire) an empty DA revolver trigger a minimum number of times within a brief time period. This test sometimes gave smaller stature, lesser strength recruits a lot of problems. The test went by the wayside with the adoption of DA/SA pistols.

The introduction of some of the newer DAO-type & SA pistol designs seems to make teaching trigger control an easier task in some respects ... and faster & easier operation of the newer, lighter trigger systems can be considered an advantage for many folks when it comes to training a lot of people. Look at all of the new pistols being released in modified DAO-type designs. (Some are really neither fish nor fowl, but you get my drift.)

Perhaps it may be a bit of a mixed blessing, though. I've always thought there's something to be said for the foundation of handgun skills developed when learning to use a DA revolver for a service weapon. Quality versus quantity ... relying more on proper grip, sight alignment/picture, trigger control and demonstrable consistent accuracy, rather than 'spray & pray', to put it one way. Training issues ...

The overall ergonomics of pistols & revolvers seems to demonstrate that more folks can be better fitted with one of the newer pistols than a revolver, since personal physical & ergonomic requirements really vary quite a bit. The difference between single & double column magazines in many pistol models can be an advantage in this respect for some folks, too ...

Faster controlled & accurately placed shots are also a potential advantage when it comes to pistols, as is recoil management & recovery when comparing pistols & revolvers chambered in powerful, defensive cartridges. Again, however, different folks have some different perceptions in these matters.

This is one of my favorite subjects for casual discussion whenever I get together with other instructors who have been in the business for enough years to have previously carried & trained with revolvers. While most everyone admits and appreciates the advantages of using a pistol instead of a revolver for L/E duties, it's often surprising how many instructors admit that they'd personally (themselves) be comfortable returning to carrying and using a revolver again ... and how many often still carry a revolver off-duty.

I have to admit, carrying an 8-shot M627 5" .357 Magnum revolver wouldn't really bother me all that much, at least for uniform usage. My uniform pistol is presently an all-steel 8+1 .45 ACP pistol.

Of course, if I carried an 8-shot revolver for uniform use I'd still really prefer something smaller for plainclothes. :neener:

It's probably safe to opine that when compared against the traditional steel revolver, the modern pistol is an overall improvement for daily L/E defensive tasks and duties ... especially when one of the newer, lighter weight models is considered, and higher capacities can be an advantage when considered from some perspectives.

In the right hands, however, I wouldn't necessarily consider a revolver user/carrier to be 'insufficiently armed'.

Remember, we're only talking about defensive handguns, after all ...

Given my choice ... and only considering handguns ... I'd rather be backed up by an experienced revolver user/shooter, even if 'only' armed with a S&W M10 .38 Spl, than a minimally proficient partner carrying some brand/model of high capacity wonder pistol which gives him/her what might charitably be called misplaced confidence in his/her abilities to actually use it, especially when under duress ...

We need to consider the overall training needs for subject like this, though.
 
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Don't have much to add here, but I was an LEO 72-94 and an instructor for the last 15 of those years. In 1972 the agency was full of pistoleros and while the issue guns were revolvers, anything "American made, .38 or larger caliber" was permissible if you could qualify with it. I used a LW Commander until 1980 or so when agency lawyers got nervous and got that paragraph tossed from the regs. Then went to a 4" .357 and never changed.

I agree that it's best to let a motivated officer carry what he wants, within reason. You still have to have some guidelines or you will have people showing up with broomhandle Mausers and Makarovs. But from experience I know that a good man with a good revolver can deliver the goods, time after time. If that same officer goes to a semiauto he will make that work too--but only if it was his choice in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, the real-life advantages are mostly theoretical. I still like the 1911 but that same old .357 is what I rely on even now.

What gets overlooked too often is officer mindset and committment to training. Modern police management and lawyers seem to think that all this can be addressed by identifying and buying the "perfect gun" when the individual is key.

Winding down rant mode.
 
I'm a big revolver guy myself, but its a pretty faulty argument to say that reducing a person's available supply of ammo will somehow make them better marksman.

Does anybody have any *actual* evidence to support the widely accepted claim that spray-and-pray shooting is a "new" development with police?
 
El Tejon said:
A handgun is only a teddy bear. Its only advantage is portability.

If I were Emperor *collective THR shudder*, I would leave it up to each cop as to waht their carry gun(s) would be. Carry what you qualify with.

Many of the medium- to small-size departments have the same philosophy and allow people to carry on duty whatever they want as long as they qualify with it. This is why I've been searching for one of these departments since I got out of the academy, and not jumping on the first big city test like everyone else. I just have a specific taste.

One department I'm looking at will issue their people Glocks. If someone doesn't want a Glock issued by the department, they can carry their own weapon and have $300 credited to an account to purchase duty gear, uniforms, etc. According to one of their supervisors, most of the department officers use their own weapons (which turned out to be S&W autos).
 
I prefer using semi-autos for duty, and my main reasoning is reload speed. I've owned and trained extensively with both wheel gun and semi-auto, and well, I always do better with the semi's...Also, hard to fit 15 rounds in a wheel gun.
 
The point this fellow was trying to make was that revolvers are less threatening to public image whereas autos have a "militaristic" image. The problem I have with such a transition is that it opens the floodgates to anti-gun community to loudly pronounce that "if LEOs don't need autos than no average citizen does either." These gun-graggers have already showed that they are willing to use the "militaristic" appearence of a weapons, regardless of its actual functionality, as a reason to demand such a weapon be banned for civilian use. Even if autos themselves survived a law enforcement wheel gun transition what about civilian magazine capacity. Remenber when anything over 10rounds was, according to gun-grabbers, high capacity magazines that only LEOs need. If LEOs return to six shooters then as soon as the first crime is commited with an auto having a standard 10rnd magazine gun grabbers will call the police "out-gunned" and demand these magazines be banned. If LEOs have six rounds then the average citizen should be limited to four round mags.
 
Well, I wouldn't get too wrapped up around the axle about anti-gun people latching onto a cop's use of a 6-8 round revolver to somehow mean that non-L/E shouldn't have a higher capacity pistol. I've encountered a lot of non-L/E members of the public that didn't recognize the difference between a revolver and a semiauto pistol, after all ...

Although, for those folks that can recognize the difference, I always thought it was interesting that for the bulk of the last century that it was the revolver that was generally connected to the 'good guys' in American culture, and the pistol that was connected to the 'bad guys' & gangsters. Hollywood isn't exactly working hard to counter this theme, though, is it? This sort of not-so-subliminal message in our big screen blockbusters isn't lost on the general public, you know ...

Just like the old cowboy revolvers never ran dry, nowadays we have a lot of pistols on tyhe big screen that seem to fire boxes of ammunition between magazine changes ... (okay, as well as the odd one where a new magazine is used, one round is fired, and the slide locks back on an empty pistol ;) ). Is this the new 1-round capacity magazine Hollywood is trying to suggest we use? More likely bad technical advisors, property masters, blank functioning issues or improper attention to continuity between takes ...

I also think that a certain 'spray & pray' reaction has always been present to some degree in L/E situations when lesser skilled folks are placed under the unexpected life-threatening stress of a close quarters shooting situation. However, it might be fair to speculate that it wasn't until the introduction of the higher capacity pistols that it probably became so noticeable because of the available ammunition between reloading ...

I remember one morning when a long time, experienced cop and revolver user attracted the attention of the head instructor. This was after we'd already transitioned from revolvers to pistols.

We were doing some reaction training on metal pepper poppers, and when it came his turn he started blazing away at the target, literally peppering the ground all around the target, as well as getting a few hits on the metal popper. When he was called to task for his not-so-accurate rapid fire, especially since he hadn't formerly shot that way with a revolver, his explanation was that since he'd been given that many available rounds in a rapid fire pistol, that it made sense to use them to maximum effect. :eek: :banghead:

While the folks that track such statistics keep telling all of us that the number of mean rounds fired in L/E shootings hasn't risen that much more since the wide spread introduction of pistols in L/E service, we've seemingly seen more L/E shootings where a large number of rounds were fired rather quickly ... remember some where from 40-120+ rounds have been fired? ... although it might also be fair to say that news media coverage might be faster and quicker on the trigger, as well, nowadays. ;)

I've gone from carrying a couple of issued pistols ... (full-size one for 'uniform' and a compact for plainclothes, although I often carried the full-size pistol for my plainclothes duties, as many cops are wont to do) ... to a couple of pistols which have only 8+1 and 9+1 capacity, and it doesn't bother me not to be carrying pistols which have 15+1 & 12+1 capacity anymore. They still possess faster reloading capabilites than a revolver, though, and the triggers offer short SA reset after the intial DA trigger stroke.

But it still wouldn't really bother me to go back to carrying a .357 Magnum revolver, either ... which won't ever happen when it comes to a duty weapon, so it doesn't really matter, does it? ;)

However, I'll continue to carry a couple of them as off-duty weapons, and will likely continue to do so after I retire, as well ...
 
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Old Dog said:
Bottom line is, semiautos are still generally the easier handgun for the majority of people to shoot in terms of putting shots downrange quickly and accurately; revolver DA trigger pull is just tougher to master if one wants to shoot fast.

Even with moonclips, unless you're Jerry Miculek, almost everyone can reload a semiauto far faster than they can a revolver.

c_yeager said:
I'm a big revolver guy myself, but its a pretty faulty argument to say that reducing a person's available supply of ammo will somehow make them better marksman.


Agree with these two comments, 100%...
 
American Police Departments have always been well armed

The Illinois State Police adopted the S&W Model 39 in 1967 IIRC. Many agencies issued or authorized the 1911 type pistol. Browning marketed the M1918 BAR to law enforcement agencies as The Monitor. You'd be surprised to find out the number or Thompson and Reising submachine guns that were bought by police departments decades ago.

So called spray and pray shootouts have always happened. All you have to do is look up some of the shoot outs from the days of the James/Younger gang to the present. Of course some of them had armed citizens jumping into the fray.

There have been great advances made in police training in the past three decades. Why go backwards?

I think those who long for the good old days of police work in America don't realize how things really were back then.

Jeff
 
I think that most people are comforted by the fact they are able to carry more ammo. Not saying they should or shouldn't be. However I think that with good training neither should be an issue. If the officers are trained to be a proficient with a Glock over a revolver then I would rather see them armed with Glocks. But either should work. Though if I was to encounter possibly hazardous situations I would want as much ammo as I could feasibly carry.
 
Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I was worried that current or former LEOs would take personal umbrage at my questions, but instead they just answered them to an incredibly informative degree. It's sad that the revolver doesn't suit the current LE needs, but I'm glad cops are getting what they need to do their job right and stay safe.
 
I was a LEO firearms instructor when most officers carried revolvers. I was one of the first officers to carry a simi-auto (1911), which I wasn't real comfortable with, but the only 45acp avialible. By the time I got out of law enforcment most were armed with Glocks and S&W autos. The local department requires officers to attend a combat pistol course before carring a weapon. It is a course based on the Gunsite personal defence course and modified for law enforcement. They train in a hogan's alley. They also have to run a hundred yards to the firingline during qualification. I know that all departments don't do this type of training, but don't mess with our officers, they might suprise you. My son can draw his Sig with M6 attached from a triple retension holster and fire 2 shots COM in 1.75 seconds. By they way try to reload a revolver with one hand due to an injury, or reload a revolver while driving 100 mph in a persuit.
 
An hour's, mandatory, weekly practice with whatever is issued would be better. Unless you're advocating proper triggers, adjustable sights plus the mandatory practice.
The days of new cops being shooters before they get hired are long gone in most cases. Most new cops have never seen much less fired any firearm, never mind being any good with them. Good bunch of people, for the most part, but firearms savvy they ain't.
 
Semi autos are better police weapons for several reasons already stated. As for the militaristic appearance issue. All I can say is tough crap. My safety comes before political correctness. The police are having to get more militaristic as the criminal element has become more serious.
Pat
 
c_yeager said:
I'm a big revolver guy myself, but its a pretty faulty argument to say that reducing a person's available supply of ammo will somehow make them better marksman.

Does anybody have any *actual* evidence to support the widely accepted claim that spray-and-pray shooting is a "new" development with police?

Wow, this is an excellent thread. Having been trained first on DA revolvers and years later semi-autos, and still carrying both, I can admit to a certain amount of complacency when carrying 15+1 instead of 6. I am consciously working to overcome it, but I think it's not uncommon for a LEO to subconsciously think "Well, with this s/a I've got xx rounds, so I'll throw a few quick ones downrange and see if I get lucky" whereas with a revolver you know you've got limited shots before reload and you are more careful to use them well.

I think it's Col. Cooper who says a single well-placed shot on the battlefield is worth more than multiple poorly placed shots.

So, in response to C Yeager's post, I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with him. Limiting ammo capacity of the weapon won't make you a better marksman. BUT, it may have the effect of getting the shooter to utilize his or her already-learned marksmanship skills from shot 1, instead of launching a few quickies before settling down to apply those skills on later shots.

I must also say that Fasbolt's long post here was right on the money.

BTW, though I still carry both revolver and s/a, I'd say I'm partial to .357 wheelguns in 3" or less for concealed carry. If anyone ever knows of someone who wants to get rid of one please PM me. Thanks.

Great thread!

Perpster
 
perpster said:
Wow, this is an excellent thread. Having been trained first on DA revolvers and years later semi-autos, and still carrying both, I can admit to a certain amount of complacency when carrying 15+1 instead of 6. I am consciously working to overcome it, but I think it's not uncommon for a LEO to subconsciously think "Well, with this s/a I've got xx rounds, so I'll throw a few quick ones downrange and see if I get lucky" whereas with a revolver you know you've got limited shots before reload and you are more careful to use them well.

I think it's Col. Cooper who says a single well-placed shot on the battlefield is worth more than multiple poorly placed shots.

So, in response to C Yeager's post, I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with him. Limiting ammo capacity of the weapon won't make you a better marksman. BUT, it may have the effect of getting the shooter to utilize his or her already-learned marksmanship skills from shot 1, instead of launching a few quickies before settling down to apply those skills on later shots.

I must also say that Fasbolt's long post here was right on the money.

BTW, though I still carry both revolver and s/a, I'd say I'm partial to .357 wheelguns in 3" or less for concealed carry. If anyone ever knows of someone who wants to get rid of one please PM me. Thanks.

Great thread!

Perpster

In a gun fight the last thing your thinking about is the amount of ammo you have. There is really no such thing as having too much ammo. If limited capacity were better lets go to single shots. Capacity is not the most important issue at all. But its not a bad thing to have. Personally I carry a Wilson CQB with 8 in the gun. 2 spare 10 round mags in a double mag pouch and 2 spare 7 round mags that fit in a single GLock 21 covered mag pouch.
Pat
 
355sigfan said:
In a gun fight the last thing your thinking about is the amount of ammo you have. There is really no such thing as having too much ammo. If limited capacity were better lets go to single shots. Capacity is not the most important issue at all. But its not a bad thing to have. Personally I carry a Wilson CQB with 8 in the gun. 2 spare 10 round mags in a double mag pouch and 2 spare 7 round mags that fit in a single GLock 21 covered mag pouch.
Pat

Point well taken. No matter what I'm carrying I've got reloads readily available. I also learned the hard way that counting rounds fired goes right out the window in the real world.
 
I believe that if all LEOs nationwide were told that they had to back to revolvers, there would be widespread "blue flU" for mass resignations. In this day and age LEOs deal with a different breed of criminal. MS 13, Aryan Nation, Gangster Disciples, etc. Soon to be jihadists.
 
I'm having a hard time buying the "different breed of Criminal!". Deal with a Hell's Angels or Outlaw Biker gang once and tell me they are less intimidating than the thugs of today. I too carried both. I preferred a BHP for most plainclothes duties because of firepower and concealability. I did have comments occasionly about the cocked and locked carry method from the public. Keep in mind though this was when revolvers were much more common. I still carry both types today for ccw. I have to admit though I have always preferred shooting revolvers. I did not put up with stiff double action issues I had them smoothed up. Jeff you are making me feel real old for my backup long gun was a Thompson! Let me tell you nothing gains respect from troublemakers quicker than a Thompson or large Police Dog.:)
Jim
 
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This has to be one of the more cordial and enjoyable threads I've seen here in a while. Pleasant, informative and thought-provoking. I can see how most of the former cops and current/former firearms instructors are nodding their heads to experiences and opinions posted across the range of comments being offered.

Yes, having less capacity doesn't automatically make anyone a better shot ... but then neither does having virtually endless capacity. Instructors and line folks at least adequately proficient with their handguns are better if they realize this, and utilize whatever they have at hand to optimal effect, expecially when it comes to accuracy and fire control.

Reloading a revolver and a pistol under stress can reveal the advantages and disadvantages inherent in both designs, especially if done 1-handed and other tasks/skills are required to be used & demonstrated at the same time. Of course, if someone doesn't bother to take proper care of their magazines, and/or they become damaged in a manner which prevents proper feeding, then things can get really interesting, really quickly, when it comes to a pistol.

How about a 'for instance'?

If capacity were equal between a hypothetical revolver and a pistol ... if each had only 6-rounds capacity before reloading, for example ... the overall ergonomics, trigger, perceived recoil/controllability and reloading advantages of the pistol would still probably make it a more advantageous service sidearm choice for general L/E defensive needs. That doesn't mean there might not be some folks who could shoot one or the other 'better', or folks with skills, and who found themselves in situations where the inherent pistol advantages previously mentioned weren't really involved, who did just fine with a revolver. But the contrary circumstances might prevail, and the pistol's advantages might well mean the difference between life & death.

You still see revolver users in L/E here and there. Obviously not as common as they were 20-30 years ago, but they're still out there. Some of the ones I've met and talked to aren't happy about it, some don't care, and some are still fine with a revolver. If their working conditions were to change, and their geographical locations were to change, some of the latter might well change their minds about revolvers, however. You never know ...

The funny thing is, we're actually seeing an increase in the presence of revolvers at some L/E ranges, but it's in the form of Secondary & off-duty weapons. The diminutive 5-shot revolver is seemingly enjoying a resurgence of popularity again. Capacity and trigger design considerations seem to be balanced against reliability and concealment needs in the minds of an increasing number of folks, and the small-framed revolver offers potential advantages in the way of functioning under adverse conditions ... fewer potential feeding & cycling issues, especially related to grip stability 'problems' and ammunition/feeding tolerance.

Of course, the folks who entered L/E without learning how to shoot a DA/DAO revolver are sometimes quickly discovering that learning to shoot a pistol doesn't exactly create a foundation of revolver pistol skills, either, and that short-barreled revolvers have their own subset of requirements when it comes to revolver skills.;)

I also think that as we see more young folks returning from Afghanistan and the Gulf we're going to be seeing a lot more 'wartime experienced' folks entering L/E with firearms training and combat experience, too. Just like after Viet Nam. This will probably do a lot toward reversing the trend of some of the recruits we've seen enter L/E work without any firearms experience, as we seemed to see in the 80's & 90's.

I've probably been issued my last couple of pistols for uniform & plainclothes, seeing as how we're adopting new pistols and I'm only a couple or so years from retirement, so it's unlikely I'll ever carry a revolver again except as an off-duty weapon, and then as one of my retirement CCW weapons ... along with a pistol or three.;)

There are many things I miss from the 'good old days' of police work ... but overall better equipment, including firearms, isn't really one of them.

As much as I didn't really care for my first issued 66, but which at least was easier to care for than the blued Pythons that had been issued to the folks hired just before me, I did like my last 686 ... :neener:
 
Screw handguns - I think LE should strap on and sling up an all tacticooled out AR15. Sweet firepower!
 
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