LE/Federal Agencies/Armed Forces Caliber Choices

[tacstar]

I was curious as to why LE departments & federal agencies(FBI,ATF,DEA,CIA etc.) opt to use .9mm or .40 S&W generally favoring .40S&W.

While armed forces units such as Navy Seals opt to use .45ACP(HK Mark 23).
It is my understanding that LE favors .9mm due to its ability to penetrate objects(car doors) & its manageable recoil.

.40 S&W as I understand it is the happy medium due its increased stopping power. So what benefit does the .45 ACP have over the other rounds & why do armed forces use this round?

 

[thrasher64]

Its the biggest so it must be the best

But really I have no idea why.. But i do love my .45's

 

[The Unknown User]

I was just about to ask this same question.

Is there really any reason backing the choice of weaponry and ammunition issued to LEOs?

 

[Snowbandit]

The military, due to various treaties with other governments, is limited to nonexpanding (ball) ammunition. They can't use the modern and efficient ammo that law enforcement officers have access to in the US. The best the military can do, especially with pistol ammunition, is to start out with the biggest available and that's usually a .45.

 

[ojdidit]

As I understand it (read not an expert), armed forces are limited to a certain bullet type by law of warfare agreements with other countries. I think there is a particular ban on bullets created to produce unreasonable suffering. Therefore, pretty much all the US military uses for handgun ammo are solid FMJ bullets. If that were your only bullet choice, wouldn't you want the biggest caliber you could reasonably handle? Recent reports show troops are unhappy with 9mm performance and the military is considering a change (possibly back to 45ACP).

For law enforcement there are no restrictions, so hollow points or other expanding ammo is fine. Therefore, with increased bullet performance, the larger caliber is somewhat less important as it relates to stopping power. Smaller calibers are typically easier to shoot, especially in rapid-fire, which is why you see fewer law enforcement agencies using 45s.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

It's the mystique of the 1911 and the .45 ACP; obsolete for the 'grunt', the elite retain the older platform and cartirdge. You know, many folks balked at the 1911 and wanted to retain the .45 LC revolver. In a simliar manner, the true 'riflemen' scoffed at the M-1 when it replaced the 03. And so on...

That said, .45 is very accurate and really a 'light' gun to handle for the performance it provides (not the same animal with +p+ loads, however).

 

[TexasRifleman]

Texas Highway Patrol and the US Air Marshal Service both use .357 Sig.

I suspect lots has to do with the lowest bidder or the best lobbyist

 

[Sevengunner]

When I started out in the Navy we shot the .45 which was the standard at the time. For novices it was difficult to shoot the "issued" range guns accurately and the recoil was daunting. The aviation community could shoot .38 revolvers for qualification and it was more user friendly for inexperienced shooters. My sense is that the 9mm's primary virtue is that it's easier to use, but combat vets, who have watched bad guys walk away from 9mm hits tell me they'd like to have the .45 back.

 

[GunTech]

Most agencies switched to 40S&W for more power over the 9mm while staying in the same basic platform. The FBI was the first proponent of upgunning after the Miami shootout. They originally picked the 10mm, but some agents had trouble qualifying, and the cartridge required a larger pistol. FBI began experimenting with a downloaded 10mm, ang S&W figured out they could match the ballistics of the light 10mm in a shorter case that could be adapted to 9mm size pistols.

The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[isp2605]

They originally picked the 10mm, but some agents had trouble qualifying,

This is an internet myth that just won't die. I discussed this with John Hall in 1995. He was in charge of the BU's FTU and was the guy in charge of the testing and later adoption of the 10mm. The FBI never issued full power 10mm ammo to its agents therefore this internet myth of "agents couldn't handle the recoil" was never an issue. Before the 1076 was ever issued the FBI had already worked to develop the 10mm Lite. The reason for developing the reduced load was the BU had a performance criteria set when they did their caliber testing and the 10mm Lite met that criteria. They didn't need a full power 10mm in their handguns. What the 10mm did give them was the flexibility to use the full power 10mm in their subguns. Think of it as they BU was still in the mentality of what they had when they carried the .38. Even agents carrying .357 guns were required by policy to be loaded with .38 but they could carry .357 ammo as reload. We joked with some of the guys at FTU that the thinking was sort of like the cowboys of the old west where some carried Winchester 92s in the same caliber as their handguns so they'd only have 1 kind of ammo to buy and carry.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

The requirement to use FMJ for the military is found in the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention as some believe.

As has been stated above, the reason some of the "elite" military units use the .45 is it is the biggest of the three most popular calibers and does carry the most knock down in a FMJ. It has very little to do with "the mystique of the 1911 and the .45 ACP."

 

[BuntlineSpecial]

having been a patrolman during the "great migration" from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols. I can say, at least at my department, it went like this.
Everyone got to say what they liked. A long list was made. The council balked at the price and tabled it. Finally a bunch of guns were got together and everyone got to shoot them. Actually, the day shift guys got to shoot up the (meager) supply of ammo and the rest of us went out and bought some and shot them too. Then the night shift guys got to disassemble and clean them, and write a report on which one disassembled the easiest. Then the sargent went out and bought some parts to replace the ones that got lost (hear my voice in the back of your heads now "Hang onto that recoil rod when you remove the slide, there;s a spring there and...whoops, I think it went out the window. Nice work (Name withheld).
Lots more discussion, a good amount of name calling, some veiled threats that "some of the officers on this department are gun happy", and then the chief buys the cheapest one.
For the record, I went through the academy carrying a 1911, when others had their wheelguns, I carried it proudly, hung it up only when issued a required department handgun to replace it, and now it is back, proudly on my hip.
As to why the Military is issuing 9mm, but the spec-guys carry .45's. The spec guys use their handgun more in the areas of room clearing, CQC and the like. The .45 FMJ has a knockdown that you don't get from FMJ 9 or .40. The "rest of" the military guys are complying with NATO, which says "9mm in pistosl and SMG's 5.56 in rifles, etc, etc."

 

[40SW]

The .40SW offers adequate stopping power which approaches that of a .45ACP ,while still retaining modest grip size and higher capacity., now having said that, there are of course exceptions.
Many manufacturers like Springfield Armory, Para Ordinance, and Glock, have been able to fit the same number of rounds in a relatively compact frame/grip size without a sacrifice in capacity.
In the early day, the problem was recoil, but honestly the .45ACP and the .40SW have the same felt recoil to me. It varies shooter by shooter.

 

[Josh Aston]

Very few people in the military use the .45. Everyone wants to think that the .45 is making a comeback with the military. It's not. A few units that never gave it up because they didn't have to are still using it. Military LE doesn't use the 9mm because of penetration or whatever other reason. We use it because that's what they give us.