Liberal with guns.

[Drjones]

Taxes - complain away, but you try to find a better tax structure anywhere in the world. You want a first-world country with roads, Social Security, and a decent military, you gotta pay for it. And tell me what substantive changes you would make in the federal budget - it is not too easy and I bet you would be surprised how much we pay for debt service. And here we go with Bush putting us in the hole again.

I agree that we may have less taxes than most of the world, but not by a whole lot. I believe that we can cut a HELL of a lot more govt. spending. The creed of libs and demos is "bigger govt = better govt."

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not against ALL taxes of course. I'm not some blind libertarian. I fully understand that SOME taxes are of course necessary for infrastructure, defense, etc.

There is MUCH room for improvement, I believe, in the way our money is spent and there is MUCH we could chop off our govt.

Abortion - well, this is a thread locker, but I think the government has no right to tell women what they can do with their bodies. That is a pretty straightforward principal.

Agreed this is a thread locker and we should take this to email. I'll just say that again, when liberals control the language of the debate, its real easy to win. You consider a living human fetus a "lump of tissue according to science" and as such, fit for the woman to dispose of at will.

I do not. I can actually pinpoint the day I changed my belief on this. It was just a few months ago. I was listening to michael savage on the way home, and it suddenly clicked for me; abortion is murdering a human baby. I actually used to be pro-choice, spouting the same "its a woman's body!" line.

I now realize that the woman also enjoys the right to keep her legs closed in the first place.

I digress...I shouldn't have gone this far, and let's take further discussion to email PLEASE so we do not get locked.

Speaking of 'colored people' getting unfair advantage - as if that were some kind of a real problem . Conservatives fought the repealing of Jim Crow laws and desegregation tooth and nail. If I were conservative I would be real proud of that. Sorry if we have given blacks one generation of relatively minor assistance geting integrated into the mainstream economy.

Dems were united in support of slavery, and united against abolishing it.

I also fail to see how discriminating against whites (which, by definition, all affirmative action-type programs do) is supposed to solve anything.

More evidence of liberal "logic": Discrimination against coloreds is NOT OK. Discrimination against whites is perfectly fine.

- Freedom of the press is virtually exclusively defended by liberals.

How exactly?

- Conservatives have consistently tried to impose their religious beliefs through prayer in public schools and the teaching of 'creation science'. (Talk about spin - find the science in creation science)

I agree here. I am not religious and do not believe in creationism. I never said conservatives were perfect, just far less evil than libs.

- Conservatives think that the state government has a right to tell me what form of consensual adult sex I can have in my bedroom. Sorry, just because it is the state government rather than the federal does not mean it is not government oppression.

Again we agree. I'm rather libertarian.

- Liberals are responsible for legislation protecting clean water and air. Conservatives have consistently fought to give protection to polluting industries.

The "wonderful" environmental protections liberals win also make it increasingly difficult for businesses to do business, as each year always brings MORE regulations and laws, never less.

- Police powers - liberal consistently fight to protect individuals from illegal use of police power, including warrantess searches and holding suspects without arresting them. You can also add electronic surveillance, since police are prohibited from tapping your phone without a warrant thanks to liberals.

I'm not sure on this one and I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[TamThompson]

Examples of the right trying to silence the left:

1. The heavy-handed policing of the Seattle protests to the big globalization conference (G8? I think it was G8.)

2. The right's vitriolic statements to the effect that anyone who dared raise a voice against us going to war with Iraq must be a traitor. Sorry, no--I'm no traitor, I'm just exercising my first amendment rights.

3. Any whistleblower in any major corporation you want to name (the Enron woman comes to mind.) They've had to make laws to protect whistleblowers, since right-wing corporate honchos *will* try to silence them.

 

[Drjones]

Examples of the right trying to silence the left:

1. The heavy-handed policing of the Seattle protests to the big globalization conference (G8? I think it was G8.)

If liberal "protestors" wouldn't use every event as an excuse to riot, perhaps there wouldn't be a need for so many police. Those "protestors" are jobless thugs looking for an excuse to start a fight, destroy public and private property, and disrupt the lives of uninvolved third parties. Disruption is one of their creeds. It is NOT a right.

Large police presence does not equal infringement of freedom of speech.

2. The right's vitriolic statements to the effect that anyone who dared raise a voice against us going to war with Iraq must be a traitor. Sorry, no--I'm no traitor, I'm just exercising my first amendment rights.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Bush ordered "traitors" rounded up into camps and shot. I also do not recall Bush nor any conservative national politician calling dissenters "traitors." Just because a majority of the population is telling you you are a moron doesn't mean they nor the govt. are infringing upon your rights.

Again, do you understand that the government must be actively infringing upon your rights in order for you to scream "1A"? Media does not equal govt.

3. Any whistleblower in any major corporation you want to name (the Enron woman comes to mind.) They've had to make laws to protect whistleblowers, since right-wing corporate honchos *will* try to silence them.

You are making an unsupported statement. How do you know these "honchos" are conservative?

But most importantly, you still cannot grasp that THE GOVERNMENT must be infringing upon your freedom of speech in order for it to be infringement.

And I'll bet you that conservatives had at least some part in drafting these protectionist laws.

 

[Mark Tyson]

Why don't libertarians speak out as much against corporations as they do against the government? Corporations can be every bit as cold and inimical to individual liberty as any government. If governments do not hold corporations responsible for their actions, than who will?

On another topic you brought up:

Affirmative action is an annoying but, in my opinion, necessary program to rectify one of the most disgraceful episodes in American history. Blacks are still feeling the effects of discrimination and second class citizen status, and they
will be for some time. Libertarians and conservatives offer no remedy to such severely disenfranchised groups.

One day we will not need affirmative action. Unfortunately, I don't think that day will be soon.

 

[Drjones]

Affirmative action is an annoying but, in my opinion, necessary program to rectify one of the most disgraceful episodes in American history. Blacks are still feeling the effects of discrimination and second class citizen status, and they
will be for some time. Libertarians and conservatives offer no remedy to such severely disenfranchised groups.

One day we will not need affirmative action. Unfortunately, I don't think that day will be soon.

Tell me precisely why we should not then right every wrong that has been done throughout history.

 

[Drjones]

And affirmative action isn't merely "annoying;" it is blatantly racist and is even racist against certain minorities.

Asians are discriminated against under AA just as whites are.

 

[Mark Tyson]

We can't right every wrong throughout history. We can make things a little better for people who have been severely wronged in this country by giving them a fighting chance to break out of crippling poverty, poverty brought on by slavery and segregationist policies.

And by the way, affirmative action doesn't mean quotas or reparations, it means sanctions for a pattern of discrimination(apologies if you already knew that, but some I talk to on the subject don't).

What would the conservative/libertarian solution to severe racial inequity be? What will they do if blatant, serious discrimination like the kind we used to have returns in force?

 

[doctorhumbert]

My point of Dixie Chic was NOT primarly about a Freedom of speech. It was about disturbing trend of people being labeled as an unpatriotic because of their dissent stance against govt. and president. Just because one is not with Bush doesn't mean they are with Saddam.

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country." (Theodore Roosevelt)

 

[doctorhumbert]

Even if I was minority, I WOULD NOT WANT an Affirmative Action upon me. Most I Asians I know have enough dignity to refuse affirmative action. They are proud and hardworking people who stands alone despite the change of land and language. I hope that someday blacks would have such dignity and dicipline also.

 

[CZ-75]

Sensoring & SteamRolling Dixie Chic CDs (remeber the book burnings?).

***?

If a bunch of PO'd folks and radio stations want to get together and burn, ban,m whatever the dixie twits, that is exercising THEIR 1st amendment rights. This is free speech - protesting what the twits have said and done. The twits can still say and do what they want, but no one has to buy their crap.

Taxes - complain away, but you try to find a better tax structure anywhere in the world. You want a first-world country with roads, Social Security, and a decent military, you gotta pay for it. And tell me what substantive changes you would make in the federal budget - it is not too easy and I bet you would be surprised how much we pay for debt service. And here we go with Bush putting us in the hole again.

I don't want socialist security b/c it takes 15% out of my check (the other 7.5% is money I never even got, since it is the employer match). The govt. could mandate that you invest it in approved low risk securities for your own retirement use, rather than pool all the funds, steal them, then use incoming contributions to cover the theft.

Speaking of 'colored people' getting unfair advantage - as if that were some kind of a real problem . Conservatives fought the repealing of Jim Crow laws and desegregation tooth and nail. If I were conservative I would be real proud of that. Sorry if we have given blacks one generation of relatively minor assistance geting integrated into the mainstream economy.

Don't forget that the "DEMOCRATIC" Party is the party of Jim Crow. Robert "KKK" Byrd is a Democrat. Harry S. Truman was in the Klan.

Freedom of the press is virtually exclusively defended by liberals.

How convenient, since more than 2/3 of press members are liberals. The same folks who distort the facts to their benefit, a la the New York Times and CNN.

Conservatives have consistently tried to impose their religious beliefs through prayer in public schools and the teaching of 'creation science'. (Talk about spin - find the science in creation science)

I'm agnostic, so that doesn't really fly.

Police powers - liberal consistently fight to protect individuals from illegal use of police power, including warrantess searches and holding suspects without arresting them. You can also add electronic surveillance, since police are prohibited from tapping your phone without a warrant thanks to liberals.

I hope you don't consider Klinton a "liberal" then, since he and Reno were first on the scene to attempt to expand these powers.

Liberals are responsible for legislation protecting clean water and air. Conservatives have consistently fought to give protection to polluting industries.

Guess Nixon wasn't the one to establish the EPA then?

 

[Monkeyleg]

Roscoe: "Taxes - complain away, but you try to find a better tax structure anywhere in the world. You want a first-world country with roads, Social Security, and a decent military, you gotta pay for it. And tell me what substantive changes you would make in the federal budget - it is not too easy and I bet you would be surprised how much we pay for debt service. And here we go with Bush putting us in the hole again."

Move to Wisconsin. We've become the third-worst Tax Hell in the nation. And the services are no better or worse than other states; in fact, in many respects they're worse than other states. Our property taxes on a $200,000 home are twice what a Florida resident pays.

Where does the money go? The first item on the list is the benefits for government employees. Show me a private employer who can afford to give a 10-year veteran employee seven weeks of vacation, seven sick/personal days of leave, the finest health insurance (paid for by the government) for life, and guaranteed increases in the defined-benefits pension plan. Add to this a "bennie" for employees who retire early: they get a lump-sum distribution of cash to offset their early retirement. The numbers are staggering.

My neighbor is a retired sheriff. We're the same age, but he retired two years ago at age 50. I cannot afford the health insurance package that he's receiving. What's worse is that the county pension fund fell $20 million short last year. Seems the pension board was counting on a 10% return on investment. So was Jimmy the Greek, for cryin' out loud! But, the retired government workers got their "missing" $20 million. They took it from me and every other taxpayer.

Of course, that means that I have a bit less to contribute to my own pension. Well, silly me! Where on Earth did I get the idea that my money was mine? When I reach 65, I'll be scrubbing the floors of long-retired government employees to make ends meet. And you can rest assured they won't be paying me the Minimum Wage that their union bosses have been wailing about.

I just got my property tax assessment. It went up 35% from last year, which means my property taxes are going up 35%. At roughly $4 per $1000 of property value, that's not chump change. It's going to bankrupt the folks in my neighborhood who work for private employers and who have felt the effects of the recession. (Note: it's not the "Bush" recession, nor is it the "Clinton" recession. It's just the recession).

Wisconsin is on the cusp of what could be a near-violent taxpayer revolution. Folks who sat by idly for decades have become engaged in recall elections, finally fed up with watching government employees get fat while everyone else suffers. I've never seen anything like it.

This could be the next "shot heard round the world." I hope so. And I hope it's the end of Progressive taxation, Leon Trotsky, Lenin, FDR, Carter, Kennedy, Hillary, Rangel, Schumer, Feinstein, Daschle, Gephardt, Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, Graham, and every other enemy of the people who work to put food on their tables.

You cannot expect to take money from John, take a cut for yourself, and give the rest to Joe. At least not until John realizes he's being robbed and decides to blow your head off.

 

[goon]

You cannot expect to take money from John, take a cut for yourself, and give the rest to Joe. At least not until John realizes he's being robbed and decides to blow your head off.

Exactly.
We have 4 million people (on the books) who are out of work. We have many more who are just barely making it. Their cupboards are bare for the last three days a month.
Why are the people in other countries that our government doles our money out to any more important than these Americans?
I checked into how much money you really spend on taxes once.
It is something like 40% of every dollar. That is counting income tax, sales tax and anything else they can think of to hit you with.
If those people were only giving up 8%, or whatever it took to pay our soldiers to keep OUR BORDERS safe and keep the roads paved, they wouldn't have to live like refugees in the country that their taxes pay for.
Gee, I wonder why the economy is so bad.
Could it be that no one has any money left to spend after they manage to pay their bills?

 

[Bainx]

We can't right every wrong throughout history. We can make things a little better for people who have been severely wronged in this country by giving them a fighting chance to break out of crippling poverty, poverty brought on by slavery and segregationist policies.

Sorry, but life is not "fair". Never has been, never will be. God did not design it that way. When you obtain your perfect world, please let me know, I want to buy a chunk of it.

Before you say it, I know, I know....I'm cold and evil.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Bainx: life is not fair. People should be.

 

[cordex]

Why don't libertarians speak out as much against corporations as they do against the government? Corporations can be every bit as cold and inimical to individual liberty as any government.

Because corporations cannot force us at gunpoint to follow their mandates, or to pay them a percentage of our earnings - all under the color of law.

If governments do not hold corporations responsible for their actions, than who will?

Those who patronize said corporations.

life is not fair. People should be.

You want unfair?
Okay, how about punishing me for the actions of people I'm not related to, not connected to ... many of whom have been dead for hundreds of years.

Why is no one proposing that the Irish be compensated for their years of persecution?

 

[bobdobalina]

Interesting thread so far.
I just have a couple of things to add to the discussion.

Affirmative action = not needed.
I am a naturalized U.S. citizen who emigrated to this country from Colombia when I was 8. That makes me a "minority" and in this "oppressed minority's" opinion ( and by the way all of the other people like me that I know ) feel that affirmative action is extremely insulting. I feel that I am as intelligent as anyone else and I don't need any help from anybody. The only people who I have known that even think well of affirmative action are native-born "minorities" .


Democrats/Liberals = anti civil-rights.
It appears that the liberal indoctrination some of ya'll have received has done a good job of rewriting history. From what I have studied of american history it was the Democrats in the south that supported jim crow, etc. Anybody heard of the DIXIECRATS (anti-civil rights Democrats)? Republicans like Abraham Lincoln were in favor of the abolition of slavery.


Thanks, I just felt I had to set the record straight on that one.

 

[dshimm]

There really shouldn't be anything extra-ordinary about a liberal who enjoys guns. After all, defense of freedom of speech, protection of the citizen's right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure are all classic liberal positions. So why shouldn't a liberal favor second amendment rights, as well?

The problem is the left wing statist nut cases who have hijacked the Democrat party who have a pathologic fear of firearms.

So, I don't want to argue with you about your politics. I encourage you to continue your involvement with whatever liberal Democrat organizations you are involved with. And I hope that you will be able to talk some sense into your fellow liberal Democrats about Second Amendment rights.

 

[cordex]

One more question.

Is hiring based primarily on race or gender always wrong? In other words, if I hire someone based first on their race/gender and second on their qualifications, should my company be prosecuted?

 

[Shaggy]

Well, this is an interesting thread. What I find odd is that people who own guns and care enough about the 2A to post on a forum like this could actually vote for people who consistantly try their best to ban as many firearms as possible and make it as difficult as possible for lawful people to own them. If you think that's BS then you go back through all the gun control and all the bills regarding gun control and look at who votes for them and who sponsors them.

Are Republicans perfect on the issue. Heck no, not even close. But when the votes come, you see 99% Democrat sponsorship of gun banner bills and you see about an 85-90% Democrat vote FOR gun control on any particular bill. Republicans in congress vote against gun control in almost the exact opposite numbers. Yes, there are national pro gun Democrats. However they are few and far between, and they are NEVER in any position of power in the congress. You will never see a liberal Democrat Senator who happens to be staunch pro gun heading up the Judiciary Committee. Zell Miller(D - GA)(good man as far as firearms go) for instance, will never hold any position of power in the Senate. NEVER!!!

We can't right every wrong throughout history. We can make things a little better for people who have been severely wronged in this country by giving them a fighting chance to break out of crippling poverty, poverty brought on by slavery and segregationist policies.

Guy, we've had 70 years of "the great society" and "the war on poverty" and 40 years of "affirmative action".

On the first 2 wars on poverty....gov't has spent gazillions and guess what. There are still poor people. I'm all for helping folks out of work or down on their luck. Any civilized society should do this. However, the Democrat Party(socialists every one of them) has taken this from help your down and out neighbor to live on the gov't dole for life in a life of poverty and despair. Things that should be a short term help get back on your feet have been nothing more than keep voting socialist(dem) and we'll make sure you keep getting paid a minimal sustinance. Democrats are big talkers on the Constitution but they can't show me one line that says the gov't has the the power to take the fruits of one American's labor and GIVE it to antoher American. This is wrong on every level.

Affirmative action is nothing more than racism. At this point in our history it is ridiculous. And though libs say it's not quotas, that's exactly what it is. How about a little affirmative action in the NBA. It's 90%+ balck players. Lets make the NBA look like America. 12% black, 70% white, and 18% Mexican, Asian etc.... How's that sound? Yeah, it doesn't sound to good to General Electric either. They'd rather just hire the most qualified person to do the job, just like the NBA wants to hire the best basketball players. Are there any Mexicans in the NBA?

You liberals need to take a good hard look at yourselves through history. Ann Coulter's book Treason is a good start for you. If your not too busy railing against corporations(without which, very few of you would earn any living at all) and GW Bush. Go to the library and check it out if you don't want to buy the book.

 

[doctorhumbert]

Some good points on this discussion. Just make sure to sort out obvious NONSENSES, NAMECALLINGS, and STEREOTYPINGS.

 

[Shaggy]

You refering to my post?

If so, it's not nonsense when it's true.

It's not strerotyping and namecalling when it's true about 90% of the people in the group.

 

[Mark Tyson]

No, Bainx, I don't think you're cold and evil for opposing affirmative action. Actually, these are all very good arguments against AA, an issue on which I can see both sides.

By the way, I am not a registered Democrat I'm a left-leaning independent, and I will not be a Democrat until they stop pushing this victim disarmament nonsense. I don't care if the Dems save Civilization as We Know It, I will not vote for anyone who wants to disarm lawful Americans.

As for Shaggy's points, I would say that we definitely need welfare reform. I don't want to subsidize able bodied people forever, just long enough to get them on their feet.

The points about Democrats historically wanting to disarm blacks, Jim Crow, etc. are well taken. I often bring the subject up to other liberals. You should see the looks I get. Look at who the first gun control laws prohibited: blacks, immigrants, labor unions, all the groups liberals are supposed be protecting. Disgraceful.

 

[doctorhumbert]

The first lesson of any significance I've learned since my foolish youth is that all human beings are infinitely clueless and hopelessly stupid, and only the truly stupid among these consider themselves to know the truth >

Hope you weren't too offended by my statements. Neither of us shall ever know the whole truth, for it's probably more complex than we can fanthom with our tiny 1500cc brain.

That's all I can say.

"Bring 'em on" (Let them continue to kill our sons and daughters in Iraq), George W. Bush.

 

[Shaggy]

No Doc, I'm not offended at all. I'd just like to know what part of my post you consider flase.

90% of Dems in legislatures across the country vote TO BAN GUNS. And all the bills are sponsored by Dems. That is true. Look it up and prove me wrong if you think you can. When was the last time we had a Democrat pro gun speaker or senate majority leader that was Democrat? Quite the contrary, if Dems ever get back in majorities of the legislature and the Presidency, the gun bans will begin in ernest. The only thing that stopped Clinton and that Dem congress was the Dem's loss of the US House in 1993.

As far as my comments on poverty. I think we can get hard numbers on that too if we take the time to look it up. I'm not going to waste time looking up numbers on an issue I know is broken. The Dems have created a welfare class. We have a significant portion of the society who has figured out they can vote themselves a portion of the national treasury. This will ultimately be the undoing and the downfall of the country. We are now rewarding failure and laziness and taxing the crap out of success. That system will eventually collapse on itself. Anyone who can't see that....well..... BTW, that is socialism and those systems have failed and continue to fail all over the world.

"Bring 'em on" (Let them continue to kill our sons and daughters in Iraq), George W. Bush.

So sorry you don't agree with standing up to evil and trying to convert the world to democracy. The world changed on 9-11-01. Fanatical muslims changed it. Let Iran, Syria, North Korea, and the rest sit up and take notice of what happend in Afaganland and Iraq. You can be dictator if you want, but if you fund efforts against America and take action against America or even act like you might....well, we're going to stop you. We will bomb you into submission if that's what it takes. I have no problems what-so-ever with that.

 

[doctorhumbert]

Our commander in theif who never was involved actually combat asking his soldiers to put up with more massacre? George was either stupid or didn't give a damn about his troops to make such insensitive statement.

Why don't you tell that to this guys who's are actually doing the fighting in the 120 degrees desert bombed out wasteland called Iraq?

Enough of lying. Time to 'BRING THEM HOME'