Local Officials Want Feds Help Fighting Meth Epidemic
- Thread starter Vernal45
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I am all for legalization. It's the only way we'll ever make any headway. Look at the strides we've made in cutting down drunk driving in the last 20 years. Legalize it and attach a great social stigma to it's use.
That said, meth is the worst drug I've ever encountered. The labs they make it in are fire and EPA hazards. The paranoia and violence it's use causes are also public safety concerns. We (the police) haven't been forced to shoot anyone using meth around here..yet. It's only a matter of time. I'm not certain that legalization would fix that. Tweakers are just as likely to be violent towards other tweakers who they fear may be after their stash as they are towards the police.
Even if we do legalize it, fat chance considering public opinion towards the issue, we'll still need to regulate production. If we don't, we'll still have them burning down their houses, blowing up garages and tool sheds, stealing and mishandling anhydrous ammonia, and all the other so called victimless crimes that go with the production of it.
The genie is out of the bottle. I'm not sure we can put it back in.
Jeff
That said, meth is the worst drug I've ever encountered. The labs they make it in are fire and EPA hazards. The paranoia and violence it's use causes are also public safety concerns. We (the police) haven't been forced to shoot anyone using meth around here..yet. It's only a matter of time. I'm not certain that legalization would fix that. Tweakers are just as likely to be violent towards other tweakers who they fear may be after their stash as they are towards the police.
Even if we do legalize it, fat chance considering public opinion towards the issue, we'll still need to regulate production. If we don't, we'll still have them burning down their houses, blowing up garages and tool sheds, stealing and mishandling anhydrous ammonia, and all the other so called victimless crimes that go with the production of it.
The genie is out of the bottle. I'm not sure we can put it back in.
Jeff
T. Bracker
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Legalize meth and cocaine???
As a physician I see the end results of addictions to intoxicants of all kinds every day. Those that want to legalize these dangerous drugs need a little perspective on the situation. "Responsible meth users"? Fully 95+% of first time users will become addicted to meth. So, not really a recreational drug.
Intoxicants of all kinds cause tremendous damage to our society, both in physical and emotional costs, and I'll include alcohol in that list. Much of damage to the family and children in our nation can be traced back to parents that have dependency issues to intoxicants. Legalization is not the answer. I don't know that I have a fool-proof answer either, it is a daunting problem, but the last thing that we need is more stoned users, not taking care of themselves or children.
As a physician I see the end results of addictions to intoxicants of all kinds every day. Those that want to legalize these dangerous drugs need a little perspective on the situation. "Responsible meth users"? Fully 95+% of first time users will become addicted to meth. So, not really a recreational drug.
Intoxicants of all kinds cause tremendous damage to our society, both in physical and emotional costs, and I'll include alcohol in that list. Much of damage to the family and children in our nation can be traced back to parents that have dependency issues to intoxicants. Legalization is not the answer. I don't know that I have a fool-proof answer either, it is a daunting problem, but the last thing that we need is more stoned users, not taking care of themselves or children.
CannibalCrowley
Member
Amazing! Uh, you have facts to back this up right?T. Bracker said:
One of the arguments for legalization is that in the long run there will likely be fewer users due to the lack of taboo factor, increased knowledge through availability, etc.T. Bracker said:
Bravo11
Member
I say give tax credits for companies that have drug testing policies. Give drug tests to everyone getting a gov't check like food stamps and welfare. Give drug tests to all Gov't employees. Give drug tests to everyone responsible for public safety like pilots and school bus drivers. Eventually you either quit using drugs or you don't have a job or gov't subsidy.
CAS700850
Member
And here we are again, having the same, unending debate on the legalization of drugs. Rather than rehash my old posts on this subject, here's a new one to think about.
As stated earlier, meth is cheap and (relatively) easy to produce. So, why would Jimmy down the street stop producing meth if it was legal. Go down to the store and pay $10 for a gram, or just walk over to Jimmy and buy a gram for $5, cheaper because of no taxes. How does Jimmy do this? By stealing the raw materials, or taking them in trade from some addict (just like now). The hardest chemical to get is the anhydrous ammonia, and that ain't all that hard to get in farm country.
This is one drug where the black market can probable undersell the drug companies, especially when the government taxes the he** out of the product.
As stated earlier, meth is cheap and (relatively) easy to produce. So, why would Jimmy down the street stop producing meth if it was legal. Go down to the store and pay $10 for a gram, or just walk over to Jimmy and buy a gram for $5, cheaper because of no taxes. How does Jimmy do this? By stealing the raw materials, or taking them in trade from some addict (just like now). The hardest chemical to get is the anhydrous ammonia, and that ain't all that hard to get in farm country.
This is one drug where the black market can probable undersell the drug companies, especially when the government taxes the he** out of the product.
T. Bracker
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Cannibal,
Well, 15 years in the medical profession as well as peer reviewed journal articles written by specialists in addiction medicine.
Well, 15 years in the medical profession as well as peer reviewed journal articles written by specialists in addiction medicine.
CannibalCrowley
Member
Sorry but 15 years in the medical profession in no way proves your claim. As to the latter, please point out the articles which prove your claim:T. Bracker said:
T. Bracker said:
T. Bracker
Member
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Start with "Psychology of Addictive Behavior", Dec 2000
author Castro Gomez. Are you questioning the addictive potential for meth??
author Castro Gomez. Are you questioning the addictive potential for meth??
CAS700850 said;
If you can't aquire anhydrous, you can use the Red P(Red Phosphorus) method. They get the red phosphorus from match heads. A nice byproduct of thi method of production is phosphene gas, which is odorless, colorless and lethal.
If you do a search on my posts, you'll find two news articles from across the river in Missouri, where they have cut back on the availability of anhydrous and the cooks have attempted to distill anhydrous ammonia from ammonium nitrate fertilizer and blown themselves up. restricting the precursers hasn't had that much an effect on production.
Here in Illinois we now have to sign for cold medicine containing ephedrine. It hasn't cut back on the number of labs we're seeing. Another case where restricting everyones civil liberites has done nothing to solve the problem.
I don't know what the solution is, but at 8pm tonight when I go to work, I'll take comfort in the fact that the federal government doesn't believe there is a meth problem. I'm sure there are more politically correct and dangerous crimes to worry about :banghead: .
Jeff
If you can't aquire anhydrous, you can use the Red P(Red Phosphorus) method. They get the red phosphorus from match heads. A nice byproduct of thi method of production is phosphene gas, which is odorless, colorless and lethal.
If you do a search on my posts, you'll find two news articles from across the river in Missouri, where they have cut back on the availability of anhydrous and the cooks have attempted to distill anhydrous ammonia from ammonium nitrate fertilizer and blown themselves up. restricting the precursers hasn't had that much an effect on production.
Here in Illinois we now have to sign for cold medicine containing ephedrine. It hasn't cut back on the number of labs we're seeing. Another case where restricting everyones civil liberites has done nothing to solve the problem.
I don't know what the solution is, but at 8pm tonight when I go to work, I'll take comfort in the fact that the federal government doesn't believe there is a meth problem. I'm sure there are more politically correct and dangerous crimes to worry about :banghead: .
Jeff
Cesiumsponge
Member
I’m all for personal liberties. I honestly am. In an ideal world, if someone wants to poison their own body with tobacco, heroin, marijuana, glue vapors, or saturated fats, or whatnot, it –should- be perfectly legal and fine to damage themselves into an early grave. In practice, it’s different.
Legalization would take away the black market, and reduce violent drug-related crimes and deaths as it would be regulated and controlled by government. No more suspicious sources of drugs which might kill you if it's laced with something else. I'm sure the arguments have been, are being, and will always be made cite how the creation and solving of organized crime and a black market during the prohibition era applies to the "t" today on illicit drugs.
I know marijuana users and they’re about as docile and threatening as a Chihuahua when they’re smoking their joints and eating their pizza. It's an illegal drug and I have no qualms about it being legalized and do not partake in it either nor will if it is legalized. Hell, smoking is perfectly legal but I won't partake in that either.
However, when you legalize hard drugs and start letting meth addicts and heroin addicts wander the streets as violent, abnormally strong and resistant to injury, it infringes on my safety and the safety of others.
Look at alcohol, which is legal. Alcoholics can and have ended up in public and caused a ruckus and harming others. At least violent drunks will go down with a gunshot and can be restrained within reason. Those stories of people hopped up on meth and whatnot with superhuman strength or resistance to repeated gunshot wounds…sounds freakishly dangerous to me and anone else who lives with them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but smoking, drinking, marijuana...they don't damage your brain to the point where you develop severe mental problems and diminished brain function that turn you into a nutcase which in turn poses a danger to others.
Legalization would take away the black market, and reduce violent drug-related crimes and deaths as it would be regulated and controlled by government. No more suspicious sources of drugs which might kill you if it's laced with something else. I'm sure the arguments have been, are being, and will always be made cite how the creation and solving of organized crime and a black market during the prohibition era applies to the "t" today on illicit drugs.
I know marijuana users and they’re about as docile and threatening as a Chihuahua when they’re smoking their joints and eating their pizza. It's an illegal drug and I have no qualms about it being legalized and do not partake in it either nor will if it is legalized. Hell, smoking is perfectly legal but I won't partake in that either.
However, when you legalize hard drugs and start letting meth addicts and heroin addicts wander the streets as violent, abnormally strong and resistant to injury, it infringes on my safety and the safety of others.
Look at alcohol, which is legal. Alcoholics can and have ended up in public and caused a ruckus and harming others. At least violent drunks will go down with a gunshot and can be restrained within reason. Those stories of people hopped up on meth and whatnot with superhuman strength or resistance to repeated gunshot wounds…sounds freakishly dangerous to me and anone else who lives with them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but smoking, drinking, marijuana...they don't damage your brain to the point where you develop severe mental problems and diminished brain function that turn you into a nutcase which in turn poses a danger to others.
Spiphel Rike
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Legalising hard drugs is a BAD idea. How will the effects be different if it was legal? no, the tweakers would all become lovely peace loving people who didn't get addicted or anything. Alcohol's legal, and it's common knowledge (me saying I have no stats) it kills a whole lot of people, drunk drivers, fights e.t.c
I like the idea of employers doing drug tests though, the same for any kind of welfare, this idea would certainly separate the hard drug users from the others, but a lack of money would probably just cause them to rob more people, since there's no welfare check or job contributing to their stash.
I like the idea of employers doing drug tests though, the same for any kind of welfare, this idea would certainly separate the hard drug users from the others, but a lack of money would probably just cause them to rob more people, since there's no welfare check or job contributing to their stash.
T. Bracker
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While generally true that the pot smokers tend to be docile, they also are impaired, whether it be driving, working or making parenting decisions. All of these activities and many more require you to have all of your senses with you. I think that any of those things that cause you to be impaired when you need all your wits are generally a bad idea.
It is true that in a free country, you should be able to be as stupid as you wish with your own body, but the problem with the intoxicants is that the fallout from the users impairment infringes on others financially and from a safety standpoint.
So if you live in a cave, have no job or family, don't own a car, gun or anything else that could be dangerous if you are impaired, feel free to put as many poisons in your body as you want, but stay in your cave and don't come out!
For those that think legal drugs are a good idea, spend some time in the Netherlands and Sweden. Big problem there.
It is true that in a free country, you should be able to be as stupid as you wish with your own body, but the problem with the intoxicants is that the fallout from the users impairment infringes on others financially and from a safety standpoint.
So if you live in a cave, have no job or family, don't own a car, gun or anything else that could be dangerous if you are impaired, feel free to put as many poisons in your body as you want, but stay in your cave and don't come out!
For those that think legal drugs are a good idea, spend some time in the Netherlands and Sweden. Big problem there.
Crosshair
Member
Everyone against legalising this stuff, tell me this. The current strategy isn't working, it never will. If you legalise it you at least have quality control and can get some money to boot. Let them screw themselves up until they die in a gutter if they go that path. I can be an alcoholic and do the same thing. Locking up the phycopaths and leaving regular users that don't have a problem will be better in the long run. We already lock up the phycos and there will be fewer people in jail for possesion of a ounce of grass. I don't know the exact solution, but the current one is an utter failure.
Cesiumsponge
Member
I think, unlike homebrewing alcohol or marijuana, or even tobacco leaves...meth can be made rather quickly with a few chemical reactions and at a very low cost with minimal equipment, electricity, or manpower. You don't need to ferment and age meth, or wait long spans of time for meth to germinate and produce under intense full spectrum lighting. With cigarette and alcohol taxes so high as they are for legal substances that people get addicted to, legalizing meth will likely result in a price that exceeds that of making it at home.
Granted, I did not crunch the numbers and I don't know what chemicals are used to make it and as a result cannot give you a dollar amount...but seeing these meth labs pop up overnight and start producing enough to get police attention very rapidly...and seeing the kinds of people walking out of meth labs in handcuffs, it doesn't seem like it takes a wealthy genius to whip some up.
Granted, I did not crunch the numbers and I don't know what chemicals are used to make it and as a result cannot give you a dollar amount...but seeing these meth labs pop up overnight and start producing enough to get police attention very rapidly...and seeing the kinds of people walking out of meth labs in handcuffs, it doesn't seem like it takes a wealthy genius to whip some up.
I have a friend who lives in the Netherlands and she hasn't noted that marijuana was a big problem. Marijuana, alcohol...it all impairs you in some fashion or another. If alcohol remained banned to this day since Prohibition, we'd view it in the same light as marijuana--evil and no good.
Glad to see that I coul
You know, I'm happy to see that I stirred up some conversation. I feel it's time to comment on some people's remarks.
TarpleyG: I agree that people should be able to do what they want, including self-destructive behavior to the point of death. It's just that Meth users, as they currently are, are creating hazards to others. Thus some regulation is called for.
JohnBT: I'd tend to say that it's more hazardous. Back then, more of the people making it had access to laboratory grade equipment and chemicals. Hazards go up again when you're reduced to using fertalizer, match heads, and cold tablets than simply buying the stuff in a pure form.
Matt Payne: I agree. There are kids today in hostile, hazardous situations. If nothing else, them getting the drugs from a drugstore will give you proof (in the form of a signed release), that the parents are using. Take the kids away.
Linux&Gun Guy: Heh, funny. But I kinda made the point, I think, with 'FDA regulated' and 'best safety standard'. OSHA can come down on your head if you try commercial manufacture without proper safety precautions, and if you're not trying to distribute, and it's legal to buy, they might as well buy. They get better ???? cheaper and easier.
Glenn Bartley: Yes, a few bullets would be cheaper, but not legal.
Though I'm all for charging their estate for the bullet used to put them down if they exceed their own space and attempt something illegal on somebody else.
Jeff White: It's because of the Genie that I propose legalizing it. And I never said that it wouldn't be regulated. Heck, I advocated throwing the bookcase at anybody selling/providing to kids.
T. Bracker: I'd like to see that article, however, being in the desert right now, my resources are limited in the way of research material. Do you have any online sources? I found a few sources that reported that 4.3% of people reported trying meth at least once in their life in 1999. This would be 9.4 million people. At your quoted "95%" rate, that would mean 8.9 million addicts. If in reality, there is only 1 million, that means that your 95% figure is a drug-war propafact. And those kids are suffering now. Us legalization people believe that the rate of use/abuse would not change under legalization, but that the government/people would have a better hand in regulating it and eliminating the associated violence involved in the trade of the drugs.
Bravo11: Oh I agree, I definatly agree. Prisons and government subsidy institutions should be drug free.
CAS700850: I think that you understate the benefits of mass production and wholesale chemical prices. If they're stealing precursers, cooking in their basement, and selling it on the street for half the store price, they're still commiting a number of crimes. Theft, illegal production, sale of untaxed, non-FDA approved substance? Not to mention that, it being an otherwise legal drug, it'd allow lawsuits. No real money to be made there. The site I saw quoted $100 to make an ounce of Meth, $500 if you sell it. That's quite a profit/savings if you produce it yourself. Commiting at least 3 illegal acts (theft, production, sale) for $5 a sale isn't worth it. It'd be more common to steal the stuff straight from the pharmacy. But again, that'd be watched like all the other addictive legal drugs. And at least it'd be safe(as possible).
Cesiumsponge: Herion addict won't be abnormally strong. He won't be feeling any pain though, so he'll be able to ignore the many pschological limits that we have to keep us from destroying our own bodies. The idea here is that we reduce the price, so they don't have to steal, reduce the stigma so they can get help, ensure that they can at least get pure, consistant dosages so they don't go off because they got three times what they normally get, or got some LSD mixed in with their crack.
Spiphel Rike: How would usage be different than now, other than the government would at least have a hand in seeing that the stuff is safe, and be able to spend all the enforcement money on treatment?
*edit: Brain-fart and couple typos
You know, I'm happy to see that I stirred up some conversation. I feel it's time to comment on some people's remarks.
TarpleyG: I agree that people should be able to do what they want, including self-destructive behavior to the point of death. It's just that Meth users, as they currently are, are creating hazards to others. Thus some regulation is called for.
JohnBT: I'd tend to say that it's more hazardous. Back then, more of the people making it had access to laboratory grade equipment and chemicals. Hazards go up again when you're reduced to using fertalizer, match heads, and cold tablets than simply buying the stuff in a pure form.
Matt Payne: I agree. There are kids today in hostile, hazardous situations. If nothing else, them getting the drugs from a drugstore will give you proof (in the form of a signed release), that the parents are using. Take the kids away.
Linux&Gun Guy: Heh, funny. But I kinda made the point, I think, with 'FDA regulated' and 'best safety standard'. OSHA can come down on your head if you try commercial manufacture without proper safety precautions, and if you're not trying to distribute, and it's legal to buy, they might as well buy. They get better ???? cheaper and easier.
Glenn Bartley: Yes, a few bullets would be cheaper, but not legal.
Though I'm all for charging their estate for the bullet used to put them down if they exceed their own space and attempt something illegal on somebody else.
Jeff White: It's because of the Genie that I propose legalizing it. And I never said that it wouldn't be regulated. Heck, I advocated throwing the bookcase at anybody selling/providing to kids.
T. Bracker: I'd like to see that article, however, being in the desert right now, my resources are limited in the way of research material. Do you have any online sources? I found a few sources that reported that 4.3% of people reported trying meth at least once in their life in 1999. This would be 9.4 million people. At your quoted "95%" rate, that would mean 8.9 million addicts. If in reality, there is only 1 million, that means that your 95% figure is a drug-war propafact. And those kids are suffering now. Us legalization people believe that the rate of use/abuse would not change under legalization, but that the government/people would have a better hand in regulating it and eliminating the associated violence involved in the trade of the drugs.
Bravo11: Oh I agree, I definatly agree. Prisons and government subsidy institutions should be drug free.
CAS700850: I think that you understate the benefits of mass production and wholesale chemical prices. If they're stealing precursers, cooking in their basement, and selling it on the street for half the store price, they're still commiting a number of crimes. Theft, illegal production, sale of untaxed, non-FDA approved substance? Not to mention that, it being an otherwise legal drug, it'd allow lawsuits. No real money to be made there. The site I saw quoted $100 to make an ounce of Meth, $500 if you sell it. That's quite a profit/savings if you produce it yourself. Commiting at least 3 illegal acts (theft, production, sale) for $5 a sale isn't worth it. It'd be more common to steal the stuff straight from the pharmacy. But again, that'd be watched like all the other addictive legal drugs. And at least it'd be safe(as possible).
Cesiumsponge: Herion addict won't be abnormally strong. He won't be feeling any pain though, so he'll be able to ignore the many pschological limits that we have to keep us from destroying our own bodies. The idea here is that we reduce the price, so they don't have to steal, reduce the stigma so they can get help, ensure that they can at least get pure, consistant dosages so they don't go off because they got three times what they normally get, or got some LSD mixed in with their crack.
Spiphel Rike: How would usage be different than now, other than the government would at least have a hand in seeing that the stuff is safe, and be able to spend all the enforcement money on treatment?
*edit: Brain-fart and couple typos
Last edited:
rwc
Member
Here are some WA state facts:
Increased Crime
The Washington State Crime Lab reported a marked insurgence [sic] of meth-related evidence in the last quarter of 2004.
All crime labs experienced an overall increase in meth-related evidence analyzed for 2004.
Deaths involving meth have increased by 11% in the last twelve months.
DUI's involving meth are up statewide.
In Spokane, a property crimes task force found that 93 percent of about 300 felony charges it handled involved methamphetamine.
Impact on Children and Families
In Benton and Franklin Counties, 160 of the 250 kids in foster care are there because their parents use meth.
Meth using parents have helped drive a 62 percent increase in the foster care population over the past decade.
In Washington, fewer than 30% of meth-addicted parents regain custody of their children
Cost to Communities
Publicly funded treatment programs in Washington saw a 9% increase in meth related admissions in 2004.
Thirty one of 39 counties experienced an increase.
For every pound of meth produced, there are 6 pounds of toxic waste produced.
Costs of cleaning up a meth site can reach $150,000.
---
To the point of the original post, until or unless the DEA et al. get on board the states are on their own with this and we'll have to do the best we can. Rather than debating legalization I think it is probably more efficient to talk about focusing law enforcement and juvenile education on meth. To date the early educational efforts around tobacco and marijuana seem to be working by decreasing the age of first use and thus decreasing the likelihood of use, repeated use or addiction.
Increased Crime
The Washington State Crime Lab reported a marked insurgence [sic] of meth-related evidence in the last quarter of 2004.
All crime labs experienced an overall increase in meth-related evidence analyzed for 2004.
Deaths involving meth have increased by 11% in the last twelve months.
DUI's involving meth are up statewide.
In Spokane, a property crimes task force found that 93 percent of about 300 felony charges it handled involved methamphetamine.
Impact on Children and Families
In Benton and Franklin Counties, 160 of the 250 kids in foster care are there because their parents use meth.
Meth using parents have helped drive a 62 percent increase in the foster care population over the past decade.
In Washington, fewer than 30% of meth-addicted parents regain custody of their children
Cost to Communities
Publicly funded treatment programs in Washington saw a 9% increase in meth related admissions in 2004.
Thirty one of 39 counties experienced an increase.
For every pound of meth produced, there are 6 pounds of toxic waste produced.
Costs of cleaning up a meth site can reach $150,000.
---
To the point of the original post, until or unless the DEA et al. get on board the states are on their own with this and we'll have to do the best we can. Rather than debating legalization I think it is probably more efficient to talk about focusing law enforcement and juvenile education on meth. To date the early educational efforts around tobacco and marijuana seem to be working by decreasing the age of first use and thus decreasing the likelihood of use, repeated use or addiction.
My personal opinion is to legalize all forms of recreational drugs, to legalize prostitution, to legalize gambling. If they are all legal and all controlled then the problem will be smaller, is that right. Sure it would be but only if there were SEVERE restrictions and SEVERE penalties for violations. For instance, you sell drugs or otherwise give drugs to a minor - you are executed. You have sex with a minor who is a prostitue or sell sex to a minor - you are executed. No appeals beyond one year, if you are convicted you are executed.
Let's see there need to be some other regs - don't you think. If you are a junkie who is out of work for more than six months because you are hooked, you get put into forced labor. No execution for you as long as you can work. That way any money you earn goes is taxed just like is anyone's who is a good citizen. Same goes for divorce, if you are so f'd up that your marriage crashes, I think you will need to go into forced therapy. You pay for it yourself by way of forced labor in addition to your regular job. Oh yeah man this is great the government will be the all powerful, the all mighty, the all seeing, the all knowing entity that it should be, HALLELUJAH BROTHERS AND SISTERS, can you say it, say AMEN big brother.
Or is it that you expect us to become a welfare state whereby the working people pick up the tab for all the skells who are strung out on dope like over in The Netherlands and other European hell holes? JNust because it is legal, and taxed will not necessarily make it better. Sure it could work, but plan a little more first will ya - please.
Let's see there need to be some other regs - don't you think. If you are a junkie who is out of work for more than six months because you are hooked, you get put into forced labor. No execution for you as long as you can work. That way any money you earn goes is taxed just like is anyone's who is a good citizen. Same goes for divorce, if you are so f'd up that your marriage crashes, I think you will need to go into forced therapy. You pay for it yourself by way of forced labor in addition to your regular job. Oh yeah man this is great the government will be the all powerful, the all mighty, the all seeing, the all knowing entity that it should be, HALLELUJAH BROTHERS AND SISTERS, can you say it, say AMEN big brother.
Or is it that you expect us to become a welfare state whereby the working people pick up the tab for all the skells who are strung out on dope like over in The Netherlands and other European hell holes? JNust because it is legal, and taxed will not necessarily make it better. Sure it could work, but plan a little more first will ya - please.
publius
Member
Funny thing about the Netherlands...
Their rates of drug abuse measured as a percent of population are roughly half of ours. We also pay to incarcerate 7 people to their one. And the problem is there?
Source:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
Additional related info:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/internat.htm
Their rates of drug abuse measured as a percent of population are roughly half of ours. We also pay to incarcerate 7 people to their one. And the problem is there?
Source:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm
Additional related info:
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/internat.htm
publius
Member
Something I often wonder about...
If you asked Mr. Madison whether he thought that local law enforcement agencies trying to deal with a substance abuse problem in their area was one of the "few and defined" powers of the federal government in their capacity as protectors and promoters of interstate commerce, or whether he felt that such issues are among "the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State," and are thus State or local government concerns, what do you suppose he would say?
If you asked Mr. Madison whether he thought that local law enforcement agencies trying to deal with a substance abuse problem in their area was one of the "few and defined" powers of the federal government in their capacity as protectors and promoters of interstate commerce, or whether he felt that such issues are among "the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State," and are thus State or local government concerns, what do you suppose he would say?
RWC: Interesting statistics, but as I don't know the demographics of those counties, they don't mean much to me. I know that it indicates an increasing problem.
Glenn, I agree with your first three sentences, but at the fourth, you go a bit overboard. Executions for sex with a minor(remember, 17 is considered a minor)?
I should note that I always consider the question of 'how serious is the violation'. While I believe that kids need to be protected, there are girls, starting about about 13, who can play at being 18. They're rare, but by about 15-16, many can do a decent job. Many boys will do the same, but they tend to develop a little later, so it's more difficult for them.
So you have to worry about kids attempting to present themselves as older than they are. It's not a crime worthy of execution in my book to be fooled when a 16 year old gets some alchohol/tobacco/other by pretending to be her older sister. This actually happened to my mom. Her younger sister 'borrowed' her ID for a while, Mom only found out when she finally entered that particular bar, and was told "You're not Michelle". I should note that at the time, my mom's sister was taller and looked older. My aunt is about 6" taller than mom.
As for the forced labor thing, no need for it. The way I see it, you're required to work at something in order to get welfare, and part of the conditions for getting it is to be clean (or at least becoming clean). The .Gov doesn't subsidize drug use or other luxuries such as candy, junk food, cable TV, evercrack, video games, etc. No job required to avoid 'forced labor', it's just that if you want .Gov assistance, you have to meet the requirements for it. Including, in my opinion, birth control. You don't have the right to procreate on the government's dime.
Publius, I have to agree with you. Part of the drug problem in Amsterdam and such is the ghettoization caused by it being legal only in certain areas. Of course all the druggies are going to move there. Like other pollutants, it's less of a hassle when properly diluted.
Glenn, I agree with your first three sentences, but at the fourth, you go a bit overboard. Executions for sex with a minor(remember, 17 is considered a minor)?
I should note that I always consider the question of 'how serious is the violation'. While I believe that kids need to be protected, there are girls, starting about about 13, who can play at being 18. They're rare, but by about 15-16, many can do a decent job. Many boys will do the same, but they tend to develop a little later, so it's more difficult for them.
So you have to worry about kids attempting to present themselves as older than they are. It's not a crime worthy of execution in my book to be fooled when a 16 year old gets some alchohol/tobacco/other by pretending to be her older sister. This actually happened to my mom. Her younger sister 'borrowed' her ID for a while, Mom only found out when she finally entered that particular bar, and was told "You're not Michelle". I should note that at the time, my mom's sister was taller and looked older. My aunt is about 6" taller than mom.
As for the forced labor thing, no need for it. The way I see it, you're required to work at something in order to get welfare, and part of the conditions for getting it is to be clean (or at least becoming clean). The .Gov doesn't subsidize drug use or other luxuries such as candy, junk food, cable TV, evercrack, video games, etc. No job required to avoid 'forced labor', it's just that if you want .Gov assistance, you have to meet the requirements for it. Including, in my opinion, birth control. You don't have the right to procreate on the government's dime.
Publius, I have to agree with you. Part of the drug problem in Amsterdam and such is the ghettoization caused by it being legal only in certain areas. Of course all the druggies are going to move there. Like other pollutants, it's less of a hassle when properly diluted.
publius
Member
Less of a hassle, maybe. We don't have any Needle Parks, though we do have some thoroughly drug and crime-ridden neighborhoods.
But I'd say dealing with twice as many addicts and paying for 7 times as many prisoners is more of a hassle.
But I'd say dealing with twice as many addicts and paying for 7 times as many prisoners is more of a hassle.
cracked butt
Member
Thiws was in yesterdays local paper:
Police arrest man after finding meth lab evidence
Sheboygan - A 29-year-old man was arrested Friday after authorities found evidence of a methamphetamine lab in the 1100 block of Broadway Ave., Sheboygan police reported.
Charles J. Mersberger, of Sheboygan, was placed under arrest after officers seized paraphernalia to produce methamphetamine, according to a written statement from police. A 4-year-old boy who lives at the address was examined at a local hospital and released, police stated.
This was the second meth lab police discovered in Sheboygan in the past two weeks. Sheboygan police reported June 27 that they had raided a lab in the 1000 block of Erie Ave. and arrested three people.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/339771.asp
I used to live in that city for a couple of years (population ~55,000). Despite the population, it has a 'small town' atmosphere where everyone pretty much knows everyone else. It saddens me that meth labs are starting to pop up there.
What amazes me is that a lot of people on this forum would be all up in arms if their neighbor's property was covered with rat infested trash but would defend the 'right' for others in distant lands to make chemical trash on their property that attracts human rats.
Police arrest man after finding meth lab evidence
Sheboygan - A 29-year-old man was arrested Friday after authorities found evidence of a methamphetamine lab in the 1100 block of Broadway Ave., Sheboygan police reported.
Charles J. Mersberger, of Sheboygan, was placed under arrest after officers seized paraphernalia to produce methamphetamine, according to a written statement from police. A 4-year-old boy who lives at the address was examined at a local hospital and released, police stated.
This was the second meth lab police discovered in Sheboygan in the past two weeks. Sheboygan police reported June 27 that they had raided a lab in the 1000 block of Erie Ave. and arrested three people.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/339771.asp
I used to live in that city for a couple of years (population ~55,000). Despite the population, it has a 'small town' atmosphere where everyone pretty much knows everyone else. It saddens me that meth labs are starting to pop up there.
What amazes me is that a lot of people on this forum would be all up in arms if their neighbor's property was covered with rat infested trash but would defend the 'right' for others in distant lands to make chemical trash on their property that attracts human rats.
- Status
