The Lone Haranguer
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Try the S&W 3913/908, or the various Kahrs.
Looking for a comfortable 9mm subcompact for CCW
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Orion8472
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I'm not sure if I want a DAO gun, though. I generally don't like the triggers on them and perfer a gun that would be carried "cocked and locked". I prefer a nice trigger and the long DAO trigger pull is, for me, and undesirable trait. The only DAO gun that intrigued me a little was the Walther PPS, and that was just from reading on the internet. I have no idea if it would work for me either.
But yea, the SA EMP really is hard to beat on appearances. The CZ Rami isn't quite as nice, may not be as accurate, but really did feel good in my hand. And the point of that gun was nearly perfect for me. Sights were where they should be when I did the "point without looking, then look" test.
Not sure what to do, still. What I DO know is that the most important things for me are the recoil of the gun and its accuracy first. Beauty would just be a really nice bonus.
But yea, the SA EMP really is hard to beat on appearances. The CZ Rami isn't quite as nice, may not be as accurate, but really did feel good in my hand. And the point of that gun was nearly perfect for me. Sights were where they should be when I did the "point without looking, then look" test.
Not sure what to do, still. What I DO know is that the most important things for me are the recoil of the gun and its accuracy first. Beauty would just be a really nice bonus.
Orion: I definitely notice more recoil in the plastic PM9 than the MK9, and in the MK9 over the K9. I find the K40 to have significantly more felt recoil than the K9.
Given your taste in triggers, I'd try to the SA EMP first. Wish I had that option, but the MA gun laws are screwed...
Given your taste in triggers, I'd try to the SA EMP first. Wish I had that option, but the MA gun laws are screwed...
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Orion8472
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So, the metal frame pistols should have less felt recoil than a polymer then? Yeah, the EMP would probably be the best for me, but after talking to a gun guy I know, he almost has me convinced to just use my P22 for conceal (with stingers) and use the money to buy more ammunition.
He was suggesting to me that an EMP won't be much more concealable than my FNP9, and was suggesting something like the little Kel Tec chambered in .32 caliber, but I am not too comfortable with that.
Bottom line is, I'm still unsure of which direction to go. The EMP would be an expensive toy, the CZ Rami would be a comfortable shooter, yet alittle thick, and then you have all of the DAO pistols, with the only review that made an impression being the Walther PPS.
He was suggesting to me that an EMP won't be much more concealable than my FNP9, and was suggesting something like the little Kel Tec chambered in .32 caliber, but I am not too comfortable with that.
Bottom line is, I'm still unsure of which direction to go. The EMP would be an expensive toy, the CZ Rami would be a comfortable shooter, yet alittle thick, and then you have all of the DAO pistols, with the only review that made an impression being the Walther PPS.
p2000sk. Extremely reliable, fits the hand better than baby Glock, and has more capacity than Kahr. Can be had in DAO (LEM) or SA/DA; very safe. If you have large pockets, stick it in Mica holster and you are good for pocket carry. carries best IWB.
+1 on the EMP(IMO the best in the 9mm arena). Definetly a good looking gun, "If your gonna do it, do it with style."
XD subcompact is pretty good too. Kel-tec is not a bad platform either, although with them it's either hit or miss. (Mine's gone back to the factory once, but it works great now) Don't like the Kahrs. Recoil is pretty for stiff. (compared to other 9mm's) In other words I wouldn't consider it a "fun" gun to shoot or practise with.
XD subcompact is pretty good too. Kel-tec is not a bad platform either, although with them it's either hit or miss. (Mine's gone back to the factory once, but it works great now) Don't like the Kahrs. Recoil is pretty for stiff. (compared to other 9mm's) In other words I wouldn't consider it a "fun" gun to shoot or practise with.The PM9 sure has more felt recoil than the MK9 in my hands. Both are somewhat unpleasant to shoot, but the PM9 is much more so than the MK9. Neither are range guns that you'll want to take to the range and blast 200 rounds through.
But that is true of most any pocket pistol.
Keltec 32, Kahr PM9, MK9, NAA .32, etc., are all pocket pistols, IMHO. That is their big advantage. But to get that advantage, you have to give up a lot. The grips are shorter, the barrels are shorter, the site radius is reduced, the capacity is reduced, they have more felt recoil, and they are harder to shoot quickly and accurately.
Pocket carry is a great thing because you can dispense with a cover garment and you are less likely to print. But you don't get that for free. There's no free lunch.
If you are going to carry in a hip holster, then get a bigger gun. It really isn't much harder to conceal a Kahr K9 than a Kahr MK9 in a belt holster, and something the size of a K9 is much easier to shoot than a pocket gun. I have different guns for pocket carry (Kahr PM9 or MK9) than for belt carry (aluminum-framed Kimber Compact these days).
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Orion8472
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I normally wear a shirt over any Tshirt, so I'm not sure if I really even need a pocket gun, but I definitely don't want a gun that won't be fun to shoot, and MORE importantly, one that is harder to control in case I need to make a quick followup shot. Maybe I should just wait until there are more EMPs on the market and the price comes down a bit. I'm not sure where I can get one anyway, for a fair price, right now. I'd be happy paying aroun $950 for one.
Lonestar49
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Here's what I got and why..
...
I got a Springfield Armory EMP 1911 SAO 9mm, 9+1 mags..
I can carry it both, front cross draw, or in my strong-side pocket, actually anywhere I choose, as it is semi light, small in length and height, and is a very narrow gun..
I have just over 1000 rounds, and they are flawless, and I shoot either 124gr or 135gr JHP's without any failures..
I really like the SAO, cocked and locked, aspect of it, along with its trigger is a light, sharp, crisp-break, each shot..
Worth the money and, because, it has a heavier aluminum frame, along with a very thick, polished, bull nose barrel, the weight and balance is beautiful, along with min recoil and it is a tack driver up close or at 63ft, max range, at my indoor range.
They come with great sights, and they are real Night Sights along with 3 mags, and the beautiful wood grips..
I wouldn't change a thing on this gun. She does it all, 100%, just the way she came from the factory.
Ls
...
I got a Springfield Armory EMP 1911 SAO 9mm, 9+1 mags..
I can carry it both, front cross draw, or in my strong-side pocket, actually anywhere I choose, as it is semi light, small in length and height, and is a very narrow gun..
I have just over 1000 rounds, and they are flawless, and I shoot either 124gr or 135gr JHP's without any failures..
I really like the SAO, cocked and locked, aspect of it, along with its trigger is a light, sharp, crisp-break, each shot..
Worth the money and, because, it has a heavier aluminum frame, along with a very thick, polished, bull nose barrel, the weight and balance is beautiful, along with min recoil and it is a tack driver up close or at 63ft, max range, at my indoor range.
They come with great sights, and they are real Night Sights along with 3 mags, and the beautiful wood grips..
I wouldn't change a thing on this gun. She does it all, 100%, just the way she came from the factory.
Ls
Orion: then skill the little pocket guns like the PM9. I won't call it hard to control, but it isn't fun to shoot. It serves a very distinct purpose -- it is just about the smallest, lightest 9mm around and it will fit in your pocket. But that comes with the aforementioned tradeoffs.
I have an NAA Guardian .32, and that is even more of a handful to shoot than my PM9.
I have an NAA Guardian .32, and that is even more of a handful to shoot than my PM9.
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Orion8472
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Lonestar, . . . an absolutely beautiful piece you have there. I COULD buy a CZ Rami today, but I know that I will kick myself hard in the butt if I bought one without at least waiting until a store has one I can hold. All the qualities you mention are great selling points for me!
M1911, I've been conversing with another member on PM and I understand what is being said about the PM9. A tradeoff between size, weight, and recoil. But as I said to the other member, if you had to use it in an unfortunate event, the least on your mind will be how it felt when you were shooting the guy.
The EMP, on the other hand, you may go home smiling at least! No, but it would still be a bad situation.
I wonder if I should consider what gun I would want to loose for a few days while an investigation took place? Or does that not always happen for a CCW person when they are involved in a defensive situation?
M1911, I've been conversing with another member on PM and I understand what is being said about the PM9. A tradeoff between size, weight, and recoil. But as I said to the other member, if you had to use it in an unfortunate event, the least on your mind will be how it felt when you were shooting the guy.
The EMP, on the other hand, you may go home smiling at least!
No, but it would still be a bad situation. I wonder if I should consider what gun I would want to loose for a few days while an investigation took place? Or does that not always happen for a CCW person when they are involved in a defensive situation?
Griz44
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Just think carefully before using a 9mm for a carry. The knock down power is limited. The bullet is just too fast and poses a collateral damage risk much greater than the slower and heavier rounds. A 40 is a lot better, and is available in most of the gun styles mentioned above. I prefer a 45 with a lighter load and a high fracture hollow point, it does a lot a damage, but expends energy quickly so damage through the target is limited.
Just my .02c worth, happy hunting!
Just my .02c worth, happy hunting!
9mm kahr
don't know what all the hype is about recoil in the kahr pm9. I find it pleasantly fun to shoot. It is my range gun also. have 12,100 rounds through my PM9 and if it was unpleasant, it would have been gone many months ago. To say it feels as good as a 34 ounce gun would be wrong to, but in 9mm the pm9 is to me a dream gun to shoot.
don't know what all the hype is about recoil in the kahr pm9. I find it pleasantly fun to shoot. It is my range gun also. have 12,100 rounds through my PM9 and if it was unpleasant, it would have been gone many months ago. To say it feels as good as a 34 ounce gun would be wrong to, but in 9mm the pm9 is to me a dream gun to shoot.
I'd expect to lose it for a heck of a lot longer than a couple days. Not having a $1000 gun would be the least of my worries. I was recently speaking with a prominent defense attorney here in MA. He said that the cost for defending against a murder charge starts at $75k plus expenses. If I survive the gun fight with mind and body intact, survive the legal fight afterwards, and still have some money in the bank and my marriage and job intact, I'd be thanking the good Lord above. The fact that I can't get my gun back for a year or more (or ever) would not be my major concern.
Oh piffle.
The reality is that all reasonable handgun rounds are weak and the difference between a good 9mm round and a good 45 round isn't worth a hill of beans. Either will do the job if you do your job. Either will fail if you miss the vital areas.
As you might guess from my handle, my favorite pistol caliber is .45 ACP. But I feel well armed with a 9mm.
There are far, far more serious variables to be concerned with than 9mm vs. .40, vs. .45.
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Orion8472
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M1911, is that a real possibility for someone who has to use their concealed gun in defense of there life? I thought it would be open and shut if an obvious threat was there? I know people say "it is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6", but if what you say is true, legal bills would ruin you. You may be alive, but your life won't be all that fun.
Quote:
I wonder if I should consider what gun I would want to loose for a few days while an investigation took place? Or does that not always happen for a CCW person when they are involved in a defensive situation?
I'd expect to lose it for a heck of a lot longer than a couple days. Not having a $1000 gun would be the least of my worries. I was recently speaking with a prominent defense attorney here in MA. He said that the cost for defending against a murder charge starts at $75k plus expenses. If I survive the gun fight with mind and body intact, survive the legal fight afterwards, and still have some money in the bank and my marriage and job intact, I'd be thanking the good Lord above. The fact that I can't get my gun back for a year or more (or ever) would not be my major concern.
Quote:
Just think carefully before using a 9mm for a carry. The knock down power is limited.
Oh piffle.
The reality is that all reasonable handgun rounds are weak and the difference between a good 9mm round and a good 45 round isn't worth a hill of beans. Either will do the job if you do your job. Either will fail if you miss the vital areas.
As you might guess from my handle, my favorite pistol caliber is .45 ACP. But I feel well armed with a 9mm.
+1. Especially the "Oh piffle." part.
I wonder if I should consider what gun I would want to loose for a few days while an investigation took place? Or does that not always happen for a CCW person when they are involved in a defensive situation?
I'd expect to lose it for a heck of a lot longer than a couple days. Not having a $1000 gun would be the least of my worries. I was recently speaking with a prominent defense attorney here in MA. He said that the cost for defending against a murder charge starts at $75k plus expenses. If I survive the gun fight with mind and body intact, survive the legal fight afterwards, and still have some money in the bank and my marriage and job intact, I'd be thanking the good Lord above. The fact that I can't get my gun back for a year or more (or ever) would not be my major concern.
Quote:
Just think carefully before using a 9mm for a carry. The knock down power is limited.
Oh piffle.
The reality is that all reasonable handgun rounds are weak and the difference between a good 9mm round and a good 45 round isn't worth a hill of beans. Either will do the job if you do your job. Either will fail if you miss the vital areas.
As you might guess from my handle, my favorite pistol caliber is .45 ACP. But I feel well armed with a 9mm.
+1. Especially the "Oh piffle." part.
It'd be more fun than being worm food. Being "all corpse-ified and gross" does not appeal to me at all.
And the Legal end of it does not end even if youare "No Billed" in 10 minutes or less...... there is always the likelyhood of a civil lawsuit on behalf of the choirboy's family. Not to mention the social costs....... you want to be known at your Church as the guy who gunned down a man that was breaking into your house? You may have been 100% in the right, but folks are going to percieve you differently from them on....... ask Joe Horn how his life is going........
First, it is seldom open and shut. In a defensive incident you will likely have to make life-and-death decisions in seconds, based on what you can see in the dark. Unfortunately, the mind is not a video camera and what you perceive in those brief seconds will be different from what others perceive. And those decisions you made while in deathly fear of your life may well be reviewed, dissected, and considered for months afterwards.
Anytime the police find a body, they consider it the death of a citizen and investigate it accordingly. Our society rightly considers the use of deadly force to be a gravely serious issue and the authorities will investigate it accordingly.
What you think happened isn't necessarily what a "witness" says happened. In this case: http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/NEWS/703220342
I was told by the defense attorney that it appears that the neighbor witness said he saw things that he physically could not have seen.
If you accidentally break a traffic law, chances are you'll get a fine and maybe some points on your record. In contrast, if you use deadly force when you are not legally justified in doing so (or when the circumstances are murky, or if the DA is a Mike Nifong-wannabe), then you may end up being charged with murder.
I was recently at a seminar concerning the legal use of deadly force. There were four speakers, two of whom were defense attorneys in MA. One of those attorneys was a very prominent MA criminal defense attorney. The other attorney had been a MA assistant DA for 13 years (in the district that includes Boston). People asked them how much it would cost to defend themselves in a use of force case. They both agreed that the going rate for defending a murder count in MA was $75,000 + expenses. And that is a discount from their regular rate -- if they charged their regular hourly rate basically no one could afford it.
You do not want to use deadly force unless the alternative is that you or yours are going to be dead or gravely injured.
No, I'm not saying that if you use deadly force that you will be charged with murder and it will cost you $75k to defend yourself. But that is a possibility. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
gunny3333
Member
Kel-Tec PF9
I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but my choice was the Kel-Tec PF9, 9mm. I bought it new on gunbroker.com for ~$275 delivered. (I looked at the Ruger LCP but was not comfortable with the .380.)
I know this gun had a bad rap because of early manufacturing glitches, but a quick read on the Kel-Tec owners site will show you that they have solved those problems now, and have also stood behind the guns that needed re-work.
I'm a big guy and the PF9 gets lost in just about any of my pants or coat pockets. I've got a Grandfather Oak Kydex pocket holster on order for it. It weighs 15 oz with full clip (7+1).
My first experience at the range was "too much kick", but a Hogue slip on grip with a pad on the back of the grip has cured that. I am a mostly a single action guy (Browning HP), but I quickly got used to the double action trigger, and I love the fact that there is no safety - it can not fire without the trigger being pulled.
I have a S&W Model 37 Airweight that has been my pocket gun, but it simply kicks too much for me to make a good second shot, even without the +P that I normally carry it with. The PF9 is far better for me.
The sights are much nicer than most pocket pistols and are adjustable for windage without shims.
I've got about 600 rounds through it now without a single glitch. Last Saturday at 20' I twice put all 8 rounds in a 6" circle as quickly as I could fire. It's not my Browning, but my HP won't fit in my pocket, either.
Worth giving it a look.
I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but my choice was the Kel-Tec PF9, 9mm. I bought it new on gunbroker.com for ~$275 delivered. (I looked at the Ruger LCP but was not comfortable with the .380.)
I know this gun had a bad rap because of early manufacturing glitches, but a quick read on the Kel-Tec owners site will show you that they have solved those problems now, and have also stood behind the guns that needed re-work.
I'm a big guy and the PF9 gets lost in just about any of my pants or coat pockets. I've got a Grandfather Oak Kydex pocket holster on order for it. It weighs 15 oz with full clip (7+1).
My first experience at the range was "too much kick", but a Hogue slip on grip with a pad on the back of the grip has cured that. I am a mostly a single action guy (Browning HP), but I quickly got used to the double action trigger, and I love the fact that there is no safety - it can not fire without the trigger being pulled.
I have a S&W Model 37 Airweight that has been my pocket gun, but it simply kicks too much for me to make a good second shot, even without the +P that I normally carry it with. The PF9 is far better for me.
The sights are much nicer than most pocket pistols and are adjustable for windage without shims.
I've got about 600 rounds through it now without a single glitch. Last Saturday at 20' I twice put all 8 rounds in a 6" circle as quickly as I could fire. It's not my Browning, but my HP won't fit in my pocket, either.
Worth giving it a look.
30 years at leat
seen all types of the P7 back 30 some years ago, when in the gun business. At that time they were a novelty type gun and no one wanted one due to the different decocker grip. Now they seem to be in demand. My how things change over the years.
seen all types of the P7 back 30 some years ago, when in the gun business. At that time they were a novelty type gun and no one wanted one due to the different decocker grip. Now they seem to be in demand. My how things change over the years.
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