Looking for help with a duel purpose .38 special target load

[NorthernNeighbor]

I'm a newer firearms user who's read a lot without having done a lot, and I'm looking for advice from people who have some experience (read: actually know what they're doing) on a load I'd like to work up to be useable in both a carbine and an older revolver. I should also mention I'm up in Canada, so some of the components available in the states aren't easy to find up here, and we have a few home grown options that might not have made it south.

I've currently got a newer Marlin 1894 in .357/.38, and as soon as my application to get my license upgraded to a RPAL gets approved I'd like to get a S&W revolver in the same caliber to go along with it for target shooting and casual competition use (steel challenge, action shooting, etc.). The one I have my eye on is a (reportedly gently) used model 19-4 with a six inch barrel currently being advertised with a price roughly 2/3 that of a new model 19 or 586.

I've heard plenty of mixed information about how lighter, faster, higher pressured .357 loads can lead to cracked forcing cones and fatigue cracks in the frame of these old guns, and even poorly chosen .38 special loads can lead to excessive wear over time. I'd like to find a load that can be used in this gun or others like it with minimal concern for it wearing out or cracking any part of the gun, but that can also be shot through my Marlin without causing squibs to get stuck in that long 18.5" barrel. Lower charge weights that let me stretch out how many loads I can make from a pound of powder are a bonus, but not a chief priority. If I can use most of the same components in a moderate .357 load for occasional range fun in my Marlin, all the better.

Here's what I've come up with so far, but feel free to let me know if any of these are terrible choices. My bullet selection would be the 158 grain TC FCP from Campro, which can pretty well be treated as a jacketed bullet from what I've read. My local range doesn't want magnum loads used on their steel competition targets, so for casings I'll probably be using .38 special or .38 special +P cases from Starline. The primers I can find in most local stores online are Federal and CCI.

Where I really need help is in powder selection. I've heard some people talk very fondly of Titegroup for light to moderate .38 and .357 loads, and it's cheap, available at every store I've been to or looked at online, and recommended by Campro themselves for that particular bullet. However, I've also heard many people talk about a bunch of problems it has that make me concerned about using it in a gun I'm trying not to beat to death. Specifically, it's a very hot, very fast burning powder that tends to cause scorch marks because the powder and gas can escape around the sides of the cases before they can fully expand, and the pressures it reaches for the same performance as other powders are a little concerning. Fast powders are what some members specifically mentioned to avoid if you want your gun to last. However, it seems like the vast majority of powders suitable for .38 special are fast burning, and those that aren't are either very position sensitive, have even higher reported max pressures, or are extremely dirty, which I've read can lead to higher wear if you shoot it a lot in between cleanings (which is very likely to happen in a competition).

Am I being anxious for no reason, freaking out about the wear from .38 loads in a gun rated for occasional .357 magnum use? I really love the blued Smith and Wesson revolvers, and if I'm going to go to all the trouble of getting a restricted license and a club membership, and then shell out hundreds of dollars for a handgun, I want it to be a quality gun that I'm going to really like and that will last me for a long time.

 

[Random 8]

Can you find Unique North of the border? It can be a bit dirty, but will do all you want and has been doing it since before the .357 was invented.

Titegroup will absolutely work, but you need to be cautious to precisely meter your charges...a small variance can make a big difference...and put a protocol in place to prevent double charges, which would be catastrophic.

Some other long time favorites in your application would be HP-38/W231, and Green Dot. They will both do .38 light through .357 medium very well. Others will chime in with some of the newer options out there.

 

[Dudedog]

Welcome to THR,
lots of great people here.


Charges of Titegroup are tiny and hard to see in .38/.357 brass.
Some people l love it but I don't care for it.
Titegroup loads use less powder than some others but unless you are shooting 1000s there is not enough difference in cost of powder to chose it for that reason IMO.
Very easy for a double charge (which would be bad news) of Titegroup to hide in a .38/.357 case.
I would not recommend Titegroup for a new reloader.


For light loads @Walkalong did a powder forward/powder back test here maybe he will link it.
With light loads in the larger cases some powders behave better than others.


I agree with Random 8. I think you would be much happier with HP38/W231 (same powder different labels)
Part of it will be what you have available. (times are tough now)
If you let us know what you can get I'm sure people will chime in with their thoughts.

 

[DocRock]

I hope it is dual purpose you seek!

The duel is no longer contenanced.

I use Titegroup in lighter 124 grs marketed 38 Special loads. It does require attention,as outlined above. But for 158 grs cast at loads, which do make sense as you outline, Titegroup isn't a great powder if others are available. I use HS6, not because it's the best powder for 158 grs swc, but because it's good enough and is also usable with several other pistol calibers I load for.

 

[AzShooter1]

I use Bullseye primarily for my target loads and put 4 grains behind a 158 grain bullet. It's very accurate and I've used it for years competing in ICORE and Steel Challenge Matches.

For a lighter load for steel I shoot 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the same 158 RNL bullet.

Unique is a fine powder to use also. My most accurate load is 4.5 grains of Unique with a 168 grain cast LRN.

 

[lordpaxman]

Welcome to THR.
First of all, congrats for being able to be a gun owner, especially in Canada. I’m from the People’s Republic of Cuomo, we’re about one notch south of you.... and have about as many laws.

Fast powders are what some members specifically mentioned to avoid if you want your gun to last.

I wouldn’t listen to much to this for .38/.357, for moderate target loads and the bullet you chose. The guns will outlast you.
I do load Titegroup for .38 and it produces great groups out of a 686, but as pointed out by @Dudedog it has very low case fill for a single charge and a double/triple charge will not fare well with your gun. It does burn very hot and sometimes scorches the cases, but I’ve found most powders leave some residue on the case. It is economical, but in the grand scheme of things with .38 charges, powder cost is not a big concern. There are other fast to medium powders that I’ve worked up loads for .38, and all seem to run just fine are:
IMR Red
Red dot
Bullseye
IMR Target
Clays
WST
AA2
N320
W231
W244

.38 will do just fine with just about any of those. There are medium to slower powders that all so well too, but usually need to be loaded at the upper end to burn clean, those would be full power loads. Let us know what powder(s) you choose and how the reloads go. Good luck.

 

[rfwobbly]

Welcome Aboard !

As to your "duel purpose .38"...
Allow me to point out that dueling is illegal. You'll need to find another purpose (or is that porpoise) for your .38 !!

By God, I love our crazy language.

 

[earplug]

Consider 231 or HP38 something about the name and what your trying to do. Both powders are the same.

 

[AJC1]

I do exactly what you describe and I have two working loads for doing it. If your buying cases and both guns are chambered for 357 get only that brass. It will feed better in your marlin and the use of the longer brand prevents carbon buildup in your chamber. I shoot 2 bullets a 158 Keith style bullet cast out of a lee mold over unique. The second is a rcbs mold the 35-180-sil. This works great on the rams at 200 where ringers cause heart brake. 2400 is the powder for that load. Primers are what you find and magnums are not required but work just fine if that's what's available.

 

[mdi]

Personally, I don't care for Titegroup. It's OK performance wise but for me the charge "window" is too narrow. I would suggest a more versatile powder like W321, Unique or Universal. I have others but I can reload all 7 of my hand gun calibers with these and Universal is used most. I have only tried about 1,000 plated bullets and always started with cast lead bullet data. A few I worked up to near manufacturer limits, but found no need for accuracy (the ones I tried had a 1,200 fps ceiling). For new reloaders I'd suggest a tried and true load straight out of their reloading manual(s) and begin with the starting load. I don't own a 357 lever gun but my 44 Magnum is designed to feed Magnum cartridges and Specials are problematic so perhaps think about a 357 Magnum load for both the rifle and revolver. (If Magnum loads are uncomfortable for you in your revolver, 38 Specials really won't do any long term damage, just clean the cylinder when you are done for the day and 38 Special loads can be used in 357 brass. BTDT.).

There is a lot to cover for answers to your questions and too much for a quick forum answer. What manuals(s) and texts do you have? I like to recommend The ABCs of Reloading, the latest Lyman Reloading Handbook and a manual from the manufacturer of the bullet you choose (but for plated bullets I used cast bullet data from Lyman). Good to have reliable published info/data handy...

Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun...

 

[bullseye308]

In your case I’d get both brass and nickel cases. Use the brass for the hotter loads, and the nickel for the milder loads. Bullseye with a 148 double ended wadcutter over 2.7 grains in a 38 case is a wonderful target load that has worked for over 50 years and won many competitions. Bullseye with a 158 lead semiwadcutter and 5 grains is my 357 plinking load. Both are mild and will get you plenty of rounds per pound of powder.
Other good powders are win232/hp38, BE-86, Unique, and Accurate Arms 2. Both are very easy to load for, and there is a wealth of information on them to be found. Always heck your sources against a book or post here to get it verified if you’d like. Many of us have fired tens of thousands of these loads.

 

[gunlaw]

I use Bullseye primarily for my target loads and put 4 grains behind a 158 grain bullet. It's very accurate and I've used it for years competing in ICORE and Steel Challenge Matches.

For a lighter load for steel I shoot 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the same 158 RNL bullet.

Unique is a fine powder to use also. My most accurate load is 4.5 grains of Unique with a 168 grain cast LRN.

Agreed. However I prefer a 158g SWC. Good dual purpose bullet.

 

[P Flados]

I use Titegroup quite a bit. It will will work fine, but you do need to use extra diligence for avoiding a double charge. The "burn hot" issue should really not be a problem with you guns. It does really good at the 38 Sp power level, but also does a better than average for mid range 357s.

As long as volume shooting of 357s is kept in the mid range power level, any Ruger or S&W revolver will typically last longer than the shooter. However, the S&W K frame you are interested in is noted for having problems with hot loads. Really experienced revolver guys tend to go with minimizing (or better yet, avoiding) full power loads. Jacket bullets are worse than cast bullets and full power jacketed bullets under 158 grains are asking for trouble.

 

[Hondo 60]

However, I've also heard many people talk about a bunch of problems it has that make me concerned about using it in a gun I'm trying not to beat to death.

Not sure what you heard, but I Love me some TightGroup.
Just so happens it was all could find during the 1st obamanation scare.

I've found it works in all the rounds I reload.
Really nice soft to slightly vigorous rounds depending on how I reload.

It's not gonna get you the top end velocity.
There's other powders like 2400 or Lil Gun for that.

The 1 caveat is that the charges are very low & therefore you need to be vigilant when charging.
A double charge can be disastrous!
Don't ask how I know a double charge will break a
Ruger SP101's cylinder into pieces & put a significant bulge in the top strap.
(Ruger was magnificent & sent me a brand new one even tho I told 'em it was my fault.)
Gotta LOVE Ruger