kwelz
Member
Where do people get BS like this?
6920s are currently going for around 1100-1200 which is in line with other quality ARs.
Looking to get into AR's
- Thread starter Rhyno37
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Where do people get BS like this?
6920s are currently going for around 1100-1200 which is in line with other quality ARs.
I do not know if an S&W is good enough for the desert or jungle or not. That wasn't my point. My point is that if a rifle isn't good enough to take to the desert or jungle, it has less than normal reliability. Why pay full price for less than normal reliability? An AR does not need to cost $2500 to be reliable enough to trust your life to.
Wanting a reliable AR is not the same as wanting a larger house of faster car. It's wanting a house that the doors and windows fit, plumbing and electrical are up to code, and the roof doesn't leak even in the heaviest storm. It's wanting a car that starts every morning so I can get to work and the brakes and steering are safe. I do not justify unreliable brakes because I will never race in the Winston Cup. That's plain irresponsible.
Justifying a rifle that's not reliable because it won't be taken to war is the acceptance of the substandard. Even if the rifle will only be taken to the range, time spent shooting is better than time spent trying to fix a malfunctioning weapon
Wanting a reliable AR is not the same as wanting a larger house of faster car. It's wanting a house that the doors and windows fit, plumbing and electrical are up to code, and the roof doesn't leak even in the heaviest storm. It's wanting a car that starts every morning so I can get to work and the brakes and steering are safe. I do not justify unreliable brakes because I will never race in the Winston Cup. That's plain irresponsible.
Justifying a rifle that's not reliable because it won't be taken to war is the acceptance of the substandard. Even if the rifle will only be taken to the range, time spent shooting is better than time spent trying to fix a malfunctioning weapon
ugaarguy
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- Mar 19, 2006
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- 13,828
Mist, S&W's are pretty tough. My only complaint is that the hard chromed barrels are 1:9 twist 4140 steel. The bbl. is the only big corner cut. An H1 buffer would be nice, but they run fine with the supplied CAR buffer. The new T models are using the same 1:8 gain twist Melonite (Black Nitride) 5R rifled bbl. as the Sport. The company that does S&W's black nitride also does LWRC's black nitride. LWRC claims that their testing showed better durability from black nitride bbls. than hard chroming. As I've noted here before, I bought a Sport as low cost / good value backup to my DDM4V1. The Sport has better carrier key staking than the DD. All S&W M&P's have HPT/MPI bolts. Receiver extension is mil spec, and staking is excellent. FSBs are forged F height that are pinned tightly. Finally, here a review (I know it's anecdotal) showing how even the dustcover-less Sport performed in a desert environment - http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/0...ger/-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/. The M&P's are a good value for folks who want to buy at most any B&M dealer. Nice as Colt, Spikes, LMT, and DD are they still don't have the distribution & dealer network that S&W does.
sansone
Member
To be more accurate:
NO commercial AR available to the general public is 100% milspec.
instead of bickering like children this link explains the extent of milspec available:
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech Notes\Tech Note 1, Milspec Rifles, 981223.pdf
kwelz
Member
that document is very much out of date. And Armalite is not known for their quality weapons.
ROFL!
Yeah, most ARs are used that way so that's way important.
Back on planet Earth, probably 95% of ARs sold are kept in safes or cases, taken out to the range on weekends and shot about 200-500 rounds, taken home and cleaned, and put away until the next time. They'll pretty much all work well under those circumstances.
People tout the differences between one brand and another. It's bunk. There is no effective difference. An AR is a great rifle and a great tool. It's a lousy investment in part because it takes very little to churn one out.
I have sold a dozen DPMS rifles. I have never had one come back with problems. They are budget-priced guns that work just fine. Frankly I dont see any reason to spend more money on one.
sansone
Member
Bubba nailed it..
too much of this: "my gun is great, yours is garbage" talk whenever a thread like this appears. People try to be helpful, you know who you are, then come the flamers & bashers
Bubba nailed it? It's ok to buy a less reliable rifle for the same money as one with normal reliability because it's "only going to be used at the range"?
It's not about my rifle being better than yours. Who cares?
If somebody had said "you're not going to the desert or jungle, a Colt will work fine" I would have said the same thing- if a Colt isn't good enough to survive exposure to the elements, it isn't good enough.
If a DPMS, DelTon or any other AR is good enough for the desert or jungle or other adverse environment, say so. As soon as some one says "you ain't going to war so XYZ is good enough" it tells me they think XYZ is substandard.
I don't get why people want to justify buying a rifle with substandard relibility
It's not about my rifle being better than yours. Who cares?
If somebody had said "you're not going to the desert or jungle, a Colt will work fine" I would have said the same thing- if a Colt isn't good enough to survive exposure to the elements, it isn't good enough.
If a DPMS, DelTon or any other AR is good enough for the desert or jungle or other adverse environment, say so. As soon as some one says "you ain't going to war so XYZ is good enough" it tells me they think XYZ is substandard.
I don't get why people want to justify buying a rifle with substandard relibility
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Breakmyfootoff
Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2011
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- 107
No one here is really talking about sub standard rifles. There's way too much snobbery every time an AR thread comes up.
If you're not in the military, but you feel like every weapon you own must be a military spec war tool, does that make you a mall ninja?
If you're not in the military, but you feel like every weapon you own must be a military spec war tool, does that make you a mall ninja?
sansone
Member
Breakmyfootoff nailed it too
Who said anything about being less reliable?
The whole premise is dumb. Do you want a gun that is reliable when you pour a milkshake over it and let it sit for a day? Do want one that is reliable when you've used it as a boat paddle? How about one that is reliable when left in a sandstorm for a week? Or reliable when buried in a jungle for a month? Or reliable when you run cheap laquered ammo through it without cleaning it?
There are many other qualities than reliability I look for in guns, especially if the conditions are not something I am going to experience.
Every gun is a goody-bag of features. Some of those features I am going to use, and am willing to pay for. Others I won't use so don't want to pay for. Others are detrimental to my purpose. Reliability under extreme conditions is not something I really want to pay for, especially if it means a trade-off with other features, like accuracy, and affordability.
Anyone who says "you're not going to war/only going to use it at the range" etc. is saying less relibility
You don't have to pay extra for reliability or trade reliability for accuracy.
No rifle is reliable without maintenance. As ridiculous as your examples are, a rifle will survive them and function reliably with proper maintenance.
An AR will not properly function with tight chambers, parts that break, out of spec parts, or improper assembly. To say that these conditions are acceptable because "you're not going to war" is, to use your own words, dumb
You don't have to pay extra for reliability or trade reliability for accuracy.
No rifle is reliable without maintenance. As ridiculous as your examples are, a rifle will survive them and function reliably with proper maintenance.
An AR will not properly function with tight chambers, parts that break, out of spec parts, or improper assembly. To say that these conditions are acceptable because "you're not going to war" is, to use your own words, dumb
sansone
Member
where are all these broken AR's so I can buy them. Out-of-spec parts and tight chambers? Or badly assembled? My 14yr old son can build one in his sleep. No, I'm not buying the argument that only your gun is any good, very sorry
kwelz
Member
I swear I am going to put all this in one post and ask the Mods to Sticky it one day. But as for your post.
First off nobody claims that only the brand we have are good. There are a few good brands out there. And a lot of others that range from ok to really bad. But to answer your question of where all the problems are...
I will just pick a few of the best examples since I don't have all day.
DPMS:
I had two NIB DPMS rifles with this same exact problem:
A friend of mine is a dealer. He had the following lowers. And is still stuck with them.
Notice the Parking inside the cracks.
Add this to the obscenely high number I had got complaints on when I was selling them. Broken stocks in shipping, broken internals, over sized LPK pins... The list goes on.
Stag
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ar-talk/63059-broken-bolt-carrier-survey-5.html#post2037675
Actually I will let you do more searches on Stag. But lets just say the above is not an isolated incident and one that was easily avoidable if they would have actually tested the rifle properly.
Bushmaster
Bushmaster is well known for advertising 5.56 chambers but not having them. The actual chambers are far to tight, often to the point of causing numerous failures.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=486318
That link has some info in it. One of the gents in there is an armorer that has had many an issue with Bushmaster guns.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30857&highlight=ream+bushmaster
Another one with more info. And a post from me before I knew what the hell I was doing.
___________
Now. I hate to break it to you, but there is a big difference between AR companies. Many like DPMS and Bushmaster get along because people dont' know any better. They cater to the 100 rounds into the dirt, clean it for an hour, then put it in the safe for another 60 days crowd. And these are the people who most often defend them. Once people start running their ARs hard they quickly start to see the difference in quality. And if you can't see the difference in quality then you just are not looking.
they don't use parts because they will break no. But they do indeed use cheaper parts and do not test the parts the way they should. While not malicious it is irresponsible.
Zerodefect
member
I agree. DPMS is a great rifle to leave in your safe and rarely shoot.
If I just dumped allmost $2000 in class fee's+hotel+travel+day off of work+ammo, I think I'm going to want to bring a better rifle.
But that's just me. I'm not a huge fan of having to stop and change my extractor spring after round one, then my extractor after round two, then enjoy watching my carrier slow down as the reciever heats in round 3,4,5 because it's milled all wonky. I love it when my RRA trigger fails.
Even the best rifles are going to choke a bit in harder classes. Holding them allmost upside down and pressing them into the deck can do that sometimes. Bringing a cheap one that comes from companies that cut corners could make your day a bit long. But you'll be an expert in malf clearance! YMMV, do what you want to do.
I do grow tired of replacing extractor springs for people. 90% of the BCM extractor kits I've bought and keep as spares, never make it into my gun. Usually someones Bushy, Panther, Oly, RRA etc. etc. I haven't seen any Stag problems. But I like to restake thier carriers if I come across one of thier older rifles.
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Rhyno37
Member
So what are all the top tier rifles?
DD, Colt, LMT, BCM?
DD, Colt, LMT, BCM?
kwelz
Member
While I don't really believe in "Tiers" it is the best way to categorize them.
Is is a less than comprehensive list of brands that seem to get it right.
Colt makes really good stuff but usually doesn't have the configuration I am looking for. They focus on Rifles for Military and not much on other configurations. There is nothing wrong with this at all. But for me I want 14.5 inch guns or shorter, and prefer middy gas systems. Colt doesn't have much in this regards.
LMT is Similar to Colt in this regards. Good quality with one or two questionable decisions over the last couple years. But still a limited number of configurations available.
BCM and DD on the other hand make a wide variety or ARs stock and will generally customize one however you want it. I consider these the Go To guns for most people. Still reasonably priced but with a lot of options.
Noveske is my personal favorite. Configured pretty much how I want a gun to start with. With most of the extras I would add anyway. Add to that some of the most accurate and durable barrels on the market and they are kind of a no brainer. They are a bit more money up front than the others but when you do the math they are priced right in with a DD or BCM. They just have a lot of extras from the factory.
Spikes is another Popular one. I am not a fan but they have made a number of improvements over the past couple years. My problems stem from the owner and some questionable practices.
S&W makes great budget rifles. They get most of the stuff right that is really important for most shooters. Where they do make mistakes is areas like barrel twist. And this has even been addressed on some rifles.
PSA is a new company that seems to do things right but I haven't seen them run yet so I can't make a determination. What I have seen so far is promising but the real proof is in how they hold up over time.
Knights are very nice rifles. But they are expensive. You get a lot of nice features for your money however. I haven't been able to justify the cost as of yet.
Is is a less than comprehensive list of brands that seem to get it right.
Colt makes really good stuff but usually doesn't have the configuration I am looking for. They focus on Rifles for Military and not much on other configurations. There is nothing wrong with this at all. But for me I want 14.5 inch guns or shorter, and prefer middy gas systems. Colt doesn't have much in this regards.
LMT is Similar to Colt in this regards. Good quality with one or two questionable decisions over the last couple years. But still a limited number of configurations available.
BCM and DD on the other hand make a wide variety or ARs stock and will generally customize one however you want it. I consider these the Go To guns for most people. Still reasonably priced but with a lot of options.
Noveske is my personal favorite. Configured pretty much how I want a gun to start with. With most of the extras I would add anyway. Add to that some of the most accurate and durable barrels on the market and they are kind of a no brainer. They are a bit more money up front than the others but when you do the math they are priced right in with a DD or BCM. They just have a lot of extras from the factory.
Spikes is another Popular one. I am not a fan but they have made a number of improvements over the past couple years. My problems stem from the owner and some questionable practices.
S&W makes great budget rifles. They get most of the stuff right that is really important for most shooters. Where they do make mistakes is areas like barrel twist. And this has even been addressed on some rifles.
PSA is a new company that seems to do things right but I haven't seen them run yet so I can't make a determination. What I have seen so far is promising but the real proof is in how they hold up over time.
Knights are very nice rifles. But they are expensive. You get a lot of nice features for your money however. I haven't been able to justify the cost as of yet.
Zerodefect
member
We don't say "tier" anymore. "Tier" came out after "mil-spec" died off. We were on "operator" the last few months, but now that terminology is toast as well. We'll come up with some new catch phrases soon. Don't even ask what happened to the "top shelf" guy.
"Tactical" went out of style and now is only found on the sides of Springfield 1911's. I think "professional grade" will be the next buzz word followed by a comeback of "competition" maybe even "custom". After all that, Springfield will then start engraving "Profeshinal" into all the slides of thier 1911's spelled wrong. The coolaid is mind warping when you put it down on paper.
My favorite pics:
Larue
BCM
LMT
Noveske
KAC
Rainier Arms
DD
Colt
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kwelz
Member
We are not talking about 1 or 2 examples. There isareason you don't see a lot of low quality ARs in training ourselves. They don't hold up.
I'm not going to war, at least not today. If I were I would be handed a mil-spec M16/M4. Since I'm not going to war I can choose whatever I want and place my priorities as I see fit, not as Uncle Sam sees fit. As I've said before, I've got a dead reliable rifle that isn't mil-spec. If I were going to war, I would rather have this upper on a select fire lower than a mil-spec upper.
Completely agree. Mil-spec isn't hardly required for those two traits either.
Define "tight". There are plenty of min-spec chambered ARs out there that work just fine.
What spec? Mil-spec? other than dimensional specifications, mil-spec is not determinant of reliability. A 4140 barrel will last many thousands of rounds of semi-auto fire unless the user is just into repeated mag dumps. It isn't mil-spec. On the other end of the spectrum are the Lothar Walther barrels that Noveske (generally regarded as one of the absolute best ARs made) uses. These are *gasp* NOT mil-spec.
I never saw where anyone claimed that a crap rifle was acceptable. There is a big difference between saying that mil-spec isn't everything and saying that crap is OK.
firemanstrickland
Member
I think we need to clear something up.
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech Notes\Tech Note 1, Milspec Rifles, 981223.pdf
Buy yourself an Armalite,the better rifle, and use the rest of the money for ammo.
http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech Notes\Tech Note 1, Milspec Rifles, 981223.pdf
Buy yourself an Armalite,the better rifle, and use the rest of the money for ammo.
firemanstrickland
Member
I see that someone has already posted this article. I do apologize but I do not see how the age of the document has any bearing on the truth.
"And Armalite is not known for their quality weapons."
Who says? You?
"And Armalite is not known for their quality weapons."
Who says? You?
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