Looking to get into AR's

[kwelz]

What makes you think they are so great? What have they done to set themselves apart from other makers? How many do you see in heavy/serious use. How many are recommended by instructors/professionals.

Lets look at their basic Rifle:
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.as...Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

For $975 we have a basic rifle with a 1/9 twist barrel which means I can't even shoot the best ammo available.
They don't bother to stake parts.
The bolts are not individually tested
Barrels are not individually tested

So in other words they have a number of shortcomings and cost the same as a better specced rifle.

You claim they are "the better rifle" by posting a 13 year old document that doesn't even address current production weapons and dont' back up your claim with anything else.

 

[ugaarguy]

Fishbed, did you just stop reading after my first few sentences?
I have a DD. I've owned Colt, LMT, and Noveske. I know what a top tier AR-15 is. I bought the M&P Sport as an inexpensive backup to my DD. LWRC's black nitride is done by the same folks who S&W's black nitride (Melonite). LWRC's testing has indicated better durability with black nitride bbls. than hard chromed bbls. The Sport has a 1:8 twist Melonite bbl. I bought the rifle for $550. If I wanted a dust cover & forward assist I'd order an M4 upper from Brownell's for under $100 with my Mil/LE supply group discount. The Sport does need heat shielded handguards, which are a whopping $20 (I skipped the conventional handguards & went with a rifle length rail - purely personal preference). So, with a few parts added the total is $670 with the rifle on sale, or $720 at the normal price on the rifle, and you've fixed the cut corners.

The PSA $400 regular priced uppers have 4140 bbls. If you can find a Spikes upper for under $500, and then add a decent lower that would let you get close to in price to the Sport w/ light mods, and with higher quality. But that's the thing, sometimes folks, even hardcore AR folks like, just want to grab a basic rifle at the local FFL that's inexpensive & still has quality parts where it matters. S&W's distribution & dealer network makes that possible at far more local dealers than Spikes, etc. have.

Yes, you can buy better rifles for more money than an M&P Sport. If you catch the Sport on sale you can buy it locally, do a couple minor upgrades, and have something just as nicer than a base PSA upper & lower for about the same money. Outside of PSA there isn't a better new AR for $600-$700 than the M&P Sport. The new M&P-15T (Model # 811041) with the 1:8 5R Melonite bbl, MagPul MBUS sights, and Troy quad rail can be found for under $1000. Add $15 for a heavy buffer, and it'll compete with any top tier rifle.

 

[Bobson]

I'd recommend a Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolman Carbine. Here in Phoenix, they retail about $940 OTD, on average.

If you're completely new to ARs, you have your work cut out for you, as far as learning what all the differences are and all that. The best advice I can give you was already put up by Kwelz, he just doesn't know it:

What makes you think they are so great? What have they done to set themselves apart from other makers?

Apply these two sentences to just about every company that sells ARs in the $800-$1300 price range, and as a newbie to ARs, you'll have one hell of a hard time answering these two questions, even when you've got one of each model right there in front of you. From everything I've learned in the last few months, the differences between a $800 AR15 and a $1200 AR15 is about as significant as what the logo stamped on the side of the receiver looks like. Are there differences aside from that? Sure, there had damn well better be. Are they going to make a big difference to the casual shooter? Absolutely not. I'd go so far as to say the casual shooter (read: all but the most appreciate AR15 shooters) won't even recognize any difference.

In other words, do a bit of research so you at least know what some of the terminology is, narrow it down to 3 or 4 brands, then buy what feels comfortable and well-made in your own hands. I'd stick with a model with a removable carry handle (or no carry handle at all - though I LOVE AR ring sights, and wouldn't want to own one without them). The Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolman is the AR I chose, based on everything I said here.

 

[ugaarguy]

Short Version

S&W does (all rifles):
- Properly pin gas blocks; use correct height FSBs on fixed sight models
- Stake carrier keys properly
- Use mil spec receiver extension (buffer) tubes
- Stake receiver extension castle nut properly
- Use individual HPT/MPI bolts
- Use in house forged receivers machined to correct specs
- Use in house manufactured lower parts machined to correct specs
- Use barrels made by T/C Arms (whom S&W owns)

S&W does not* (all models):
- Use 4150 or Mil-B-11595E bbl. steel (use 4140 instead)
- Use heavy buffers (use standard CAR buffers instead)
- Rifle barrels 1:7 twist (rifled 1:9 or 1:8)

Other Considerations:
- Sport & New 15T use 1:8 5R Melonite (black nitride)** bbls.
- All other models***, although 1:9 twist, are hard chromed.
- Sport does not have heat shielded handguards ($20 replacement cost for proper handguards).
- Sport lacks dust cover & forward assist, both of which are very debatable with regard to need for reliability (new M4 upper $100 replacement cost)

*4140 steel may affect extreme long term durability, but does not affect reliability. Barrel twist rate only affects ammo selection, and does not affect reliability. Buffer weight is unlikely to affect reliability on properly assembled rifles like the M&P line. (If a heavy buffer is necessary they start at $15).

**S&W's black nitride (Melonite) is done by the same contractor who does LWRC's black nitride. LWRC claims their testing shows better durability than hard chroming.

***Standard models, excludes Performance Center models.

 

[Fred_G]

Hanging my head. Well, my AR's I guess are not 'Operator' grade. I have a S&W 5.56, and a RRA and built lower for my 6.8SPC. They both go boom.

I am not an 'operator'.

Are you wanting a very reliable gun, get a decent AR. If you want a carbine class brass eating tack driver, spend a little more.

With anything, you get what you pay for. My S&W has gone bang every time I pull the trigger, no jams or anything, with over 1K rounds. Is it the end all be al AR? Well, no. Would I have any problem grabbing that S&W AR for an emergency, heck no.

 

[whalerman]

Guys, I gotta warn ya. I'm just like the original poster on this thread. I'm thinking about getting into AR's for the first time and I've followed the discussion pretty closely. But you folks are running the risk of discouraging us newbies. There's a lot of fightin' going on here, and telling someone who has ZERO experience with these type guns to "build one" can be intimidating. I did appreciate what ugaarguy posted, listing all those elements. But I don't know what those elements do. I realize you guys might be bored talking down to some of us with no AR experience, but try to keep in mind that we're very new at this. Technically, I don't even know what an upper and a lower is.

 

[rskent]

It’s hard to go wrong with a Colt. It’s a solid rifle that will shoot well and hold its resale value. Unless you or someone you trust have some experience with AR’s it’s easy to get lost in a sea of options.

 

[MistWolf]

...I realize you guys might be bored talking down to some of us with no AR experience, but try to keep in mind that we're very new at this...

If I'm talking down to anyone on any subject, I'm out of line and am not communicating.

On to another point-

I never made the claim an AR has to be milspec to be in spec. I never made the claim milspec was the only way to make an AR. My AR isn't milspec and I would not hesitate to take it to the desert or jungle or expose it to harsh elements. That's what it was built for. I never said anyone's rifle wasn't as good as mine, nor did I make the claim any particular brand is substandard. If folks wish to drown out my message in the noise of disinformation, obfuscation and what all else, so be it. Still it remains.

Substandard firearms are unacceptable and cannot be justified.

There it is. Years of experience of an opinionated curmudgeon distilled down to a bumper sticker. Want it distilled further?

Don't buy junk

 

[Bubba613]

Except that it is hard to buy "junk" in an AR.
The differences between a high end AR and an entry level AR are functionally none. Pointing out failures of QC in some models is not the same as saying Brand X is inferior to Brand Y.

Again, especially for someone buying a first one, get the cheapest off the shelf model you can get, buy ammo, go shoot it. Then you can decide what other features or brands you want on it.

 

[firemanstrickland]

Whalerman, your rite and I apologize for my contribution to the chaos. Let me say this. I personaly own an armalite m-15a4. It goes bang every time, never had a single ftf or fte with federal xm193f. I dont have to rattle off a bunch of crap statistics, or listen to the "experts" who are payed off by certain companies to make my rifle sound like the better choice. I know how well it works and so do plenty of other guys. So to all the newbies If you want a good, reliable , accurate rifle. you cant go wrong with armalite.

 

[bri]

Guys, I gotta warn ya. I'm just like the original poster on this thread. I'm thinking about getting into AR's for the first time and I've followed the discussion pretty closely. But you folks are running the risk of discouraging us newbies. There's a lot of fightin' going on here, and telling someone who has ZERO experience with these type guns to "build one" can be intimidating. I did appreciate what ugaarguy posted, listing all those elements. But I don't know what those elements do. I realize you guys might be bored talking down to some of us with no AR experience, but try to keep in mind that we're very new at this. Technically, I don't even know what an upper and a lower is.

Wow, you better stay away from m4c.net if you think this is bad.

This debate isn't about koolaid or "mine is better than yours".

Example: widget "X" is $900. Widget "Y" is the same style of widget but made from higher quality widget steel and the critical parts are individually widget tested. Widget "Y" is also $900.

Which widget would you prefer to own?

 

[david_the_greek]

Happy with my S&W (it's relatively older I think), it works very well. I also like my cheapo DSArms ZM4 upper, it also works very well. Would I also be happy with a BCM ar? YES, granted that it works (which I'm sure it would). Just go out and buy one, you probably won't regret it. One thing I might add is to look on your local forums for used ARs/uppers, you can usually find some pretty darn good deals

 

[shadow9]

Decent DIY lower, pick-your-own internals, build it yourself, and pick up a Sig 556 Upper. Gas-piston driven (ala 416), without the "Sell your firstborn" cost of the HK.

Also, get a multi-cal lower so you can use the 6.5 Grendel/.300 Whisper/etc.

 

[MistWolf]

If it's hard to buy junk in an AR, why say "since you aren't going to war, this brand is ok"? It's the same as saying "this brand is substandard". It's saying somewhere in your mind, you have doubts.

If it's a brand that has a history of problems due to being substandard, show how those issues have been addressed. Fact is, there are ARs known meet the standards for function and reliability that cost no more, or only a little more, than those that have had problems in the past. Don't downgrade your choice by prefacing it with a conditional caveat

 

[mdauben]

If it's a brand that has a history of problems due to being substandard, show how those issues have been addressed. Fact is, there are ARs known meet the standards for function and reliability that cost no more, or only a little more, than those that have had problems in the past. Don't downgrade your choice by prefacing it with a conditional caveat

I really think many people in this thread are misunderstanding each other. I don't think than anyone is saying "Gun A and Gun B cost the same, but Gun B is of higher quality. I don't think I need that quality, so I'll just buy Gun A." That would just be just foolish.

I know what I am saying is that "Gun A costs half what Gun B costs, but Gun B is of higher quality. Persoanlly, I do not plan on using my gun in such a way that the greater quality of Gun B will matter, so I will pay half as much for Gun A which will still meet all my needs." That is just an informed choice of which gun provides that user with the best value.

 

[Bubba613]

There is no difference in quality that is discernible. There is a huge difference in price and bragging rights. The higher dollar guns will give more brag performance at the range. But they won't shoot any better or last any longer.
Some lower end guns dont have chrome-lined bore and chamber. That's about the only qualitative difference and it isn't much of one.

 

[ugaarguy]

There is no difference in quality that is discernible. There is a huge difference in price and bragging rights. The higher dollar guns will give more brag performance at the range. But they won't shoot any better or last any longer.

Multiple folks here (and I'm among them) who've sold hundreds of AR-15s, and seen what brands consistently come back know that's false. Go read the AARs on M4C & lightfighter, and read about the differences from people who run them hard.

Some lower end guns dont have chrome-lined bore and chamber. That's about the only qualitative difference and it isn't much of one.

Barrels without lined or treated bores & chambers give you 1/6 or less bbl. life than hard chromed or nitride barrels. That's a huge difference. Lack of hard chrome or nitriding in the chamber will cause extraction problems when the barrel heats up and/or gets dirty. HPT/MPI bolts don't have lugs crack at low round counts because the ones with micro fissures get rejected during testing. Commercial spec buffer tubes are thinner & weaker than mil spec tubes. Gas key screws that aren't properly torqued & staked will come loose. Buffer tube castle nuts that aren't staked will also come loose. Incorrect height front sight bases will require use of an after market sight pin to compensate for this when using standard rear sights. Improperly installed gas blocks do come loose. Not replacing reamers when they're worn out does cause rough & tight chambers, and that does cause serious extraction problems. You can say that there are no functional differences, but that's not true.

 

[Bubba613]

I've sold dozens myself. Not a single DPMS has come back.

 

[bri]

While that may be true, it doesn't definitively prove the owners didn't have problems down the road. On top that, you're not even addressing ugaarguy's legitimate points on what separates these rifles.

 

[john5036]

Basically, if you intend to put your AR through heavy work, like through a carbine class, advanced carbine class, where you'll be throwing anywhere from 1000-3000 rounds within a span of 2-4 days, a few times a year, or even just once (YMMV)... buy the best material AR you can. You're already going to spend an arm and a leg for the course +ammo, you might as well have a gun that is more than likely to make it through the entire course. That intended purpose is worth the additional cost/pickiness into buying an AR with good reputation. @UGAARGUY condensed an adequate list using S&W as an example.

If you don't intend to put your AR through heavy work, no one here is really stopping you from getting the lower priced brands of nowadays such as DPMS, the Bushmasters, or even the underdog S&W MP15 Sports (this is an underrated weapon actually)... they will more than likely go bang for a few thousand rounds over the span of years. That said, I think for an entry AR, the MP15 Sport, for its price and critical features, is the best buy at $650-$700.

@MistWolf (tell me if I'm not understanding you correctly) is basically saying you shouldn't buy junk. Period. Whether or not you are going to the sandbox, or the sandbox comes to you, if you are type of buyer who's looking for an HD AR for the long haul, then by all means do not skimp on your purchase by settling for AR platforms that are sold with the, "Well you aren't going to war, this'll be fine" line. My further understanding is that given how the prices of quality ARs have now become competitive, there really is no reason to settle for an unproven brand that doesn't meet the most critical mil-spec requirements. Sure, mil-spec is "good enough for gov't work" or "lowest bid quality, not highest bid quality", but there's not a cheaper brand of AR that builds to even that minimum, so why settle for below the lowest federal bidder?

Personally, if you just want to plink around and will not rely on the weapon for SD/HD, you can buy any AR you want for very cheap and have a very fun time with it. It's very likely that you'll always be able to upgrade later should you choose to do so.

OP: The most popular brand ARs that enthusiasts here at THR will push you to such as Colt, BCM, Noveske (if you are lucky) LMT, Daniel Defense, Spikes (if you can wait 8 weeks) can be competitively shopped at the same price as the Colt LE6920 below or around $1200. On that list, the BCM will be your next lowest priced item at roughly $1050, with Spikes being at $860 for complete packages.

Palmetto State Armory is a newcomer but so far the reviews are favorable, and the pricing for what you get is fantastic, even better than the Spikes which used to be the best bargain @$800. PSA will get you an upper and lower for a combined cost at $650-$750. Aside from the MP15 Sport, these are two of the most attractive buys currently, at least when it comes to what you'll read about on THR.

Newbies to ARs... DON'T BE DISCOURAGED BY BUILDING YOUR OWN AR. It sounds scary, but it really isn't. Sorry about that.

 

[ugaarguy]

If you don't intend to put your AR through heavy work, no one here is really stopping you from getting the DPMS, the Bushmasters, or the lower end MP15 Sports... they will more than likely go bang for a few thousand rounds over the span of years.

John the Sport has the HPT/MPI bolt, properly staked carrier key, properly staked castle castle nut on the mil spec buffer tube. DPMS & Bushmaster don't do that. Bushmaster & DPMS are also notorious for their rough and tight chambers. The Sport is the only factory complete $600 AR I can recommend. I've seen too many DPMS & Bushmaster rifles with problems when used even casually. As I've also noted before I have a DPMS LR-308. It, and LR-308s in general, don't have the problems that their 5.56 platform rifles do. The LR-308s prove that DPMS knows how to properly assemble an AR pattern rifle. Why they choose not to properly assemble their 5.56 platform ARs baffles me.

 

[john5036]

John the Sport has the HPT/MPI bolt, properly staked carrier key, properly staked castle castle nut on the mil spec buffer tube. DPMS & Bushmaster don't do that. Bushmaster & DPMS are also notorious for their rough and tight chambers. The Sport is the only factory complete $600 AR I can recommend. I've seen too many DPMS & Bushmaster rifles with problems when used even casually. As I've also noted before I have a DPMS LR-308. It, and LR-308s in general, don't have the problems that their 5.56 platform rifles do. The LR-308s prove that DPMS knows how to properly assemble an AR pattern rifle. Why they choose not to properly assemble their 5.56 platform ARs baffles me.

Sorry, that wasn't intended to lump in the Sport with the inconsistencies noted in DPMS or BMs... I'll edit it out and make it clearer. I actually thought about it while out just now and figured that would get misunderstood.

 

[Zerodefect]

Get whatever you want.

If, in your gun hobby or defensive prep, your rifles are the most expensive bit...then maybe a DPMS, RRA, or Delton is well suited for you.

If, in your gun hobby or defensive prep, your rifles are by far the cheapest bit compared to the costs of ammo, hotel, travel, class fees, competition fees, support equipment and gear...then it's obviously worthwhile to get a good rifle.

Make no mistake. Some AR brands are far more prone to haveing errors, poor machining, bad springs, and plain old cheap parts in them than others. Deal with it.

 

[FlyinBryan]

ive sure been happy with the ones my son bought for my brother and me.

18,000 rounds and counting between the two of them, with some recent extremely hard running, and never one single stop. never one single stop of any kind.

always have used 30rd g.i. mags.

i guess what im considering the "recent extremely hard running" is only my opinion or "running them hard". it was 2400 rds between the two.

 

[C-grunt]

Ill make this really easy for you OP.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?display=home

Right there on the front of the page. Colt 6920 for under 1k.