Loundness of rounds fired inside a house

[stu1ritter]

Vern Humphrey wrote in part:
But I'm here -- with hearing aids in both ears -- to tell the world that loud noises will deafen you. In my day, the Army did not issue hearing protection in training (they started around 1970) and definitely not in combat. I have a disability claim for loss of hearing. The form the VA sent me includes a question, "When did you first notice hearing loss?" My answer was, "When I crawled out of the wreckage of my APC.

Total agreement with Vern and I have a disability from the VA, not due to the hearing loss I sustained in the Army from 1959-1964, but rather from the tinnitus, which has been getting worse, since it started in 1959. I was the 1st Cav. Div. small arms repairman and had to test many weapons in the 13 months in Korea. There was no hearing protection issued. I used to take a pair of .45ACP ball rounds and stuff them in my ears because it hurt so much to test fire half a dozen 50 caliber machine guns after repair.
Then there was the 2nd Army pistol team where our range was inside a Quonset hut. Imagine ten 1911's in rapid fire with full tilt military ball ammo inside a steel drum. My hearing loss is profound and the ringing from the tinnitus is SO intense, it is enough to drive you nutz. I absolutely dread ever having to fire my bedside revolver in the house, I don't know if I would survive the pain. BUT, I wouldn't hesitate.
Stu

 

[Lucky Derby]

My father was a police officer who fired one round of Remington 125 Grain .357 Magnum SJHP from a 4" S&W M19 in the line of duty. Now it was in an odd position as he fired with his right hand, over his left shoulder at a woman who had a 1911 pointed at the small of his back. It was outdoors. It blew out his eardrum, and burned his ear & neck, but it also saved his life. She was DRT.

 

[bainter1212]

Vern Humphrey wrote in part:
But I'm here -- with hearing aids in both ears -- to tell the world that loud noises will deafen you. In my day, the Army did not issue hearing protection in training (they started around 1970) and definitely not in combat. I have a disability claim for loss of hearing. The form the VA sent me includes a question, "When did you first notice hearing loss?" My answer was, "When I crawled out of the wreckage of my APC.

Total agreement with Vern and I have a disability from the VA, not due to the hearing loss I sustained in the Army from 1959-1964, but rather from the tinnitus, which has been getting worse, since it started in 1959. I was the 1st Cav. Div. small arms repairman and had to test many weapons in the 13 months in Korea. There was no hearing protection issued. I used to take a pair of .45ACP ball rounds and stuff them in my ears because it hurt so much to test fire half a dozen 50 caliber machine guns after repair.
Then there was the 2nd Army pistol team where our range was inside a Quonset hut. Imagine ten 1911's in rapid fire with full tilt military ball ammo inside a steel drum. My hearing loss is profound and the ringing from the tinnitus is SO intense, it is enough to drive you nutz. I absolutely dread ever having to fire my bedside revolver in the house, I don't know if I would survive the pain. BUT, I wouldn't hesitate.
Stu

My grandfather was an Army infantryman in Korea. I asked him specifically about hearing protection awhile back and he said nobody had any. He said he "had a headache most of the time". According to him, the small arms fire was bad but the artillery fire was worse.
He still hears very well. Amazing he didn't suffer more damage.

 

[benEzra]

Anyone have any info on sound of shotgun round by comparison? Much lower pressure in a shotgun.

Shotguns are lower pressure, but they make up for it by having a hugely larger bore (.729 for a 12-gauge vs. .36 or .45) and a larger gas volume.

In terms of decibel measurements, an 18" shotgun, a .223 rifle, and a hottish 9mm or .45 are roughly the same. None of the above are as loud as a .357 (barrel-cylinder gap + high pressure and large gas volume) or a braked rifle. A 26" shotgun will be quieter than an 18" though. Here are some measurements:

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

A straight dB scale would be preferable to dBA in this case, but they are probably ballpark. Basically, loudness correlates with barrel length (shorter is louder, due to higher pressure at the muzzle when the bullet exits), caliber, working pressure, and presence of a brake or barrel-cylinder gap.

 

[Armor Snail]

Shot a .32acp in my kitchen once.
Stung like hell in my right ear. It continued to ring for half the day.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by HEAVY METAL 1: As many of us have handguns in the home for self defense, can anyone report any lasting negative effects of discharging a round inside?

Yes.

The hearing damage risk is small compared to the otherwise negative outcome of a home invasion when defenceless of course.

I presume that you are referring to permanent hearing loss. Do not forget the severe temporary hearing impairment, which can prevent your hearing family members, intruders seen or unseen, or arriving first responders. Those can result in serious injury or death.

Posted by Steve C: There are 2 factors in how damaging to hearing a loud noise is and that is the level of the noise usually expressed as decibels and the amount of time exposed to the noise.

That is true.

Hopefully if you have to fire a gun in self defense in your house the event will be over with quickly, usually in a few seconds with a few shots fired, and such exposure while it may do some damage to your hearing, its unlikely that it would be more than going to a concert or operating a power mower without hearing protection for an hour.

That is not true.

A gunshot from a handgun will make your ears ring for a while but after some time you will not have any problems hearing at a level that will at least seem normal.

Yes, many do people continue to deny that they have hearing problems. That does not alter the facts.

Of course a lot depends upon distance from the muzzle, any intervening structure or objects that may enhance the sound by deflection or reduce the sound by absorption or interference

Big issues include the size and shape of the room and the floor, ceiling, and wall surfaces. The sound pressure reflects back from those surfaces and back again until the energy is dissipated. Carpeting may help some. So will a larger room.

...and if there's physical damage like a busted ear drum.

All permanent noise-induce hearing loss results from physical damage.


The data in the link in benEzra's posts are averages, and they do not take into account repeated reflection within a room.

Be aware that they are also expressed in terms of base 10 logs. A .357 is twice as loud as a hot 9, which in turn is about twice as loud as a .45 ACP. And that's outdoors.

I would never choose a .357 Magnum for home defense, and I think that a .45 is a better choice than a 9MM.

Best idea is electronic ear protection. Many instuctors do recommend keeping electronic ear protection handy.

 

[Panzerschwein]

After reading this thread, I am reconsidering switching the home defense ammo in my Ruger GP100 from Federal 125 grain .357 magnum 357B to some .38s of some kind.

I recall those 357B's sounding very loud, with enough blast to sting one's face even out of a 6" barrel.

 

[CopperFouling]

Be aware that they are also expressed in terms of base 10 logs. A .357 is twice as loud as a hot 9, which in turn is about twice as loud as a .45 ACP. And that's outdoors.

I would never choose a .357 Magnum for home defense, and I think that a .45 is a better choice than a 9MM.

Thank you for mentioning that. Many assume that 1 dBA of difference is negligible, but it really is not.

 

[bangswitch]

Hearing loss is cumulative, and how much/how soon depends on intensity and frequency (how often, as well as pitch). With pistols and shotguns most of which are subsonic to transonic, the noise is primarily from the blast of powder ignition. From rifles, you also have the supersonic pressure wave.

Low intensity, from distance or low power, can still create a hearing loss over time. Higher intensity, from higher power or from being close to the sound, will cause more damage more quickly. You might dodge a bullet (pardon the pun) on a few close-in shots without hearing protection, but the more it happens, the higher the likelihood of some loss. Someone who shoots often, or in an area that is either closed or sheltered should double up on protection (plugs and muffs) and consider something that utilizes active noise cancelling.

If you wonder what it sounds like to discharge a firearm inside your home, just take off your muffs for a few seconds in an indoor range. Your home might be a tad less painful, as carpeting and curtains, soft furniture, etc, can absorb some of the reflected sound, but it's still something you won't want to experience more than once.

460Kodiak--Tinnitus on the other hand could drive me to suicide

It sure comes close sometimes. I have a 40% hearing loss in the 5K to 7.5K frequency range, at the upper end of where much human voice occurs. When I'm in a place where ambient noise levels are "normal", such as an office with people talking normally, or an industrial environment with machinery going, the ringing in my ears isn't all that noticeable, because the brain is trying to process the sounds I do hear, and sort of ignores the ringing. But, in a very quiet area, where sound is low or intermittent, it is ALWAYS there, and can really affect concentration. Oddly enough, that type of environment is like a shooting range. Wearing muffs seems to amplify tinnitus, at least for me. There is no such thing as complete silence any more.

My loss comes from many years of not wearing hearing protection when I should have (chainsaws and motorcycles), plus quite a few years when things were loud enough, long enough, that hearing protection was inadequate even when worn.(8 years USAF and all their jet engines).

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bangswitch: Hearing loss is cumulative, and how much/how soon depends on intensity and frequency (how often, as well as pitch).

Absolutely right!

Low intensity, from distance or low power, can still create a hearing loss over time. Higher intensity, from higher power or from being close to the sound, will cause more damage more quickly. You might dodge a bullet (pardon the pun) on a few close-in shots without hearing protection, but the more it happens, the higher the likelihood of some loss.

Very true indeed.

Someone who shoots often, or in an area that is either closed or sheltered should double up on protection (plugs and muffs) and consider something that utilizes active noise cancelling.

Read and heed!

My loss comes from many years of not wearing hearing protection when I should have (chainsaws and motorcycles), plus quite a few years when things were loud enough, long enough, that hearing protection was inadequate even when worn.(8 years USAF and all their jet engines).

That'll do it!

In my case it was rifle shooting without protection too often, and a day in a sheet metal factory hammer room.

Loud music is now said to be one of the most common causes of permanent noise-induced hearing loss.

When I studied the subject years ago, tests showed that driving on the highway with the driver's window down was a major contributor. Automobile aerodynamic design has changed considerably since then.

 

[brickeyee]

What?

The first shot will cause at least some instant and permanent damage.
The damage may fade over time but at least some damage will not.
Even from a single exposure.

 

[Fatdaddy]

I NG'd a round from my AR into the floor of my home a few years back.
My ears rang for 3 days.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

After reading this thread, I am reconsidering switching the home defense ammo in my Ruger GP100 from Federal 125 grain .357 magnum 357B to some .38s of some kind.

Hey Cooldill, don't you own a 44 mag of some sort ? Was it an Alaskan? Loading her up with some 44 specials might be a better compromise for you. More punch with a bigger bullet, and the same round count. Just a thought.

I don't know how 357 and 38's compare with a 44 special blast. May not be much improvement.

Anyone have those number, because I've been thinking about picking up a .44 and it may be a better alternative than 38's given volume levels.

 

[sappyg]

A 9mm in a garage caused me to temporarily loose all hearing. It came back slowly with a painful crackle.
Now I think my wife enjoys talking with a low voice just to mess with me. Really.... She does it on purpose but she wouldn't admit it.
My ears ring most of the time now but I rarely pay it much attention. It's called getting old.

 

[Jesse H]

I purposefully pulled the trigger on a 22/45 inside a decently sized and carpeted room over 15 years ago. Was shooting at phone books with Aguila Colibri ammo (only has primer) and somehow a regular 22lr got mixed up in it.

My ears rang for several hours but were fine the next day. I've likely caused more damage by the years of motorcycle riding and messing with yard equipment.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Another option, if legal in your local, is a suppressor on your HD pistol. This will not only protect your hearing, but also the hearing of other family members in your home.

 

[Sav .250]

Inside range.....ear protection.

Inside house as in ,"self defense",.................... don`t have time for where did I put my
ear protection............fire at will. Unless your going to fire 500 rounds (exaggerating)
the few rounds that may be fired.......... no problem. IMO.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't know how 357 and 38's compare with a 44 special blast. May not be much improvement.

Anyone have those number, because I've been thinking about picking up a .44 and it may be a better alternative than 38's given volume levels.

A .44 special measurement is included in the link in benEzra's post.

 

[jrdolall]

I went the suppressor route for my bedside gun.

I started hunting in the mid 60s with my grandfather. 22s and shotguns and we didn't even own any hearing protection. I didn't start wearing ear muffs until the 90s and by then I had fired many thousands of assorted rounds. Sighted in many 30-06 and other calibers for many years with NO hearing protection. I have been doing firewood all my life with a chainsaw and didn't use hearing protection.

I am in my 50s now and I don't shoot anything without electronic muffs. I keep a pair by my bed but I don't count on using them for HD. My hearing loss is minimal with minor tinnitus at this point.

 

[Artym]

According to NIH, hearing loss from loud sounds depends on volume level:
"Sound is measured in units called decibels. Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss. However, long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss. The louder the sound, the shorter the amount of time it takes for NIHL to happen."

A 22 can cause hearing loss. I have hearing loss that is noise induced.

I wouldn't use a full house 357 indoors for home protection, but some medium power loads, like the 357 Golden Saber are worth considering in full sized guns. If noise and blast are too much on the range, with hearing protection, it will be worse in the home. If a medium velocity 357 is too much for you, a good 38+p will have less blast and flash.

I wouldn't want to use a 357, even in a reduced loading, in a snubby with a 2" barrel indoors or out or for home protection. The flash is blinding, since there is too much unburned powder, even in short barrel loadings that I have tried.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

A .44 special measurement is included in the link in benEzra's post.

Ah. So it is.

 

[IdahoHk416]

Just to get a sense of this for ourselves, my brothers and I fired three 5.56mm blanks out of an AR15 in my garage one day. Our ears rang for hours afterwards. I always wear hearing protection when shooting, and my hearing is excellent. We were curious to see how intense the report would be indoors, without hearing protection, as if you were protecting your home. It is not pleasant!!

 

[bangswitch]

According to NIH, hearing loss from loud sounds depends on volume level:
"Sound is measured in units called decibels. Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss. However, long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss.

The thing to remember when measuring sound level in decibels is that it is a logarithmic scale; a difference of 10 decibels is a magnitude of a hundred times the intensity of the lower number. Normal conversation is around 50 dB. A chainsaw from the length of your arm is around 130 dB. Gunshots, while not a continuous loud sound like a chainsaw, spike at 150-160. The distance from sound source to listener attenuates the dB level proportionately to the distance.

The hearing loss comes from damage to the ciliae (fine hairlike structures) in the cochlea of the inner ear. Intense, continuous or repeated sounds destroy them and they do not regenerate. One theory of tinnitus is that the brain attempts to "fill in" stimulus in the range of hearing that is damaged or lost, creating what is interpreted as a ringing in the ears. There are other causes as well, not directly related to damage to the hearing.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My ears rang for several hours but were fine the next day.

Ringing in the ears after a loud noise is a sign of permanent damage -- as you will find as you grow older.

 

[Grunt96]

40s&w isn't that loud in the house. Had no ear ringing. Don't ask.....