LPVOs and the quest for what fits me.

[TonyAngel]

Hey guys,

I've probably mentioned that over the course of the last six months or so, I've been working toward making a transition from red dots to LPVO's. Man, it seems that LPVOs are a hot topic these days. The internet/youtube is showered with reviews and guys saying that this is better than that or you should upgrade from this to that for whatever reason.

I've never been shy about spending money, but I'm not into throwing it away either. I've always been about bang for the buck, but also wanting good stuff. It doesn't need to be expensive, but good stuff usually costs.

After trying I don't know how many LPVOs, I've wound up with three. Two of which I know I'm going to keep and I'm not sure about the 3rd.

Like many, I just had to get a Vortex PST Gen II. I can't say enough about this scope. For once, what you read on the internet is true. It really is 90% of what the razor is at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. The only down side is weight. The PST in a Warne 1.9 mount comes in right at 2lbs. Yikes!! I actually had, until today, thoughts of selling it. I'll get back to this.

Due to the weight and size (yes, it's physically big), I started looking for something smaller and LIGHTER. I stumbled across some reviews on the Steiner P4xi. I thought, hmmm, what the Gen I PST should have been. Research further showed that this scope once sold for like $500, so I went shopping. Man, it's going for almost $900 now. Well I did a little digging around and found them as demos for $650, so I grabbed one. I had to see what all of the hype is about. Boy, am I glad I did. This has become my favorite LPVO. It's small, at around 10 inches long, and relatively light, at around 17oz plus the mount. The thing has it all. Super bright dot reticle. The reticle itself has holdovers that are pretty handy with info from Strelok. The eye relief is perfect and the eye box is very forgiving. This thing is fast too. It didn't take long to get used to it and my times on longer shots actually went down when running this thing at 1.5 or 2X. If you don't need more than 4X magnification, this scope is a hands down winner.

I needed one more scope. My knee jerk reaction was to just get another P4xi, but I went surfing the web and ran across a couple of reviews for the Delta Stryker. I heard some really good stuff, but to me, Delta is an unknown. My research on the Stryker did lead me to the Trijicon Credo HX 1-6X. One reviewer said they were about the same scope, both being manufactured in Japan by LOW. I also found them on sale for $800. An inch longer than the Steiner and about an ounce heavier. Man, I had to have it. Based on the reviews, it was going to blow the Steiner and PST out of the water.

Well, I got the Credo in yesterday. Mounted it up and took 3 boom sticks with me out to the range. I'm not the kind of guy that will take a scope and sit there and stare through it and pick apart every little thing. I take a scope, run it and I either like it or I don't. Well, after all day and 500 rounds, I was able to form some opinions based on a direct comparison.

The P4xi was worth every penny. Light and small enough not to slow you down. Shooting around obstacles was easy. The dot was always visible so even if you were out of the eye box, you could still see the dot and make shots with both eyes open. This scope is a dream. Definitely keeping this one and it is now deemed worthy of a $300+ mount.

The PST? Is a champ. Every thing the P4xi is at a lower cost with more magnification, if you don't mind the size and weight. What the P4 and the PST had in common (other than great optics) was that when you're in an odd position, as you move out of the eye box, you can see the shadow moving in, but you can still see the reticle and make your shot. If you have a PST and are thinking about upgrading, but don't know what the get, do your research and try to do a hands on trial of what you are thinking about upgrading too. I recently got to shoot with a Swaro Z6i. Yes, it was "better" but for me, it wasn't close to being $1600 better. Not in terms of performance. Personally, I think you're gonna have to spend a whole lot of money to beat the PST, unless the weight is the driving factor. As for upgrading to the Razor, I know the Razor is tough, but for me, I didn't see what the extra money was getting me.

Now, to the reason I'm keeping the PST. As I mentioned, I recently got a Trijicon Credo HX 1-6x. Maybe the use of the word "disappointed" doesn't quite fit, but it's the best one I have. It really isn't what I thought it was going to be. I mean, the dot reticle was bright. As bright as the P4 and PST. The BDC reticle was useful (again with info from Strelok) and the glass was very nice. About on par with the Steiner and maybe a hair better than the PST. What I envisioned when I ordered it was going to be like a 6X P4xi.

Remember how I was talking about scope shadow setting in when you move out of the eye box with the P4 and PST? Well, with the Credo, when you move out of the eye box, you start to see the hint of shadow. This is where on the PST and P4, you can push it a bit because you can still see your target through the scope through the half of the scope that the shadow isn't covering. On the Credo, you see the hint of shadow and when you push it a bit more, the whole image blacks out. This was a pain in the butt when running at max magnification. I don't know how to articulate this. The eye box isn't super tight, but there's no room for error. You're either in the box or you aren't.

Honestly, I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the one I got. I really wish I would have played with it more before I mounted it up, but it was late when I could get to it and I wanted to get to the range today. Now I can't return it. I'm seriously wishing I would have just grabbed another P4xi.

Another thing that's rubbing me wrong is that when dusk started to set in, it looked to me like the PST pulled in more light. Pfft. Whodda thunk? So, I'm gonna keep the PST on a rifle that does duty where weight isn't so much of a factor and I'm more likely to need the magnification. The P4 is staying on my 11.3" build where the Credo was supposed to go.

Well, the moral of this story? Try it before you mount it and the internet is full of lies. LOL

 

[Bamper]

Well **** this is my place to comment! I too researched the Delta Stryker to buying the Credo HX264 1x6. I'm building a Aero Precison M5/308 in battle rifle config so I got the 308 BDC reticle with single illuminated red dot. Perfect to use as 1x red dot and have 6x mag with a 308 BDC reticle right?

I am a week over Optics planet return time but they said I could send back for in store credit if I want. I go back n forth on it last few days. I have yet to shoot it but I have it mounted (not torqued or blue thread lock yet) and have done PLENTY of mock shouldering and tuning the optics clarity.

I am coming from Red dots, Aimpoint micro T2 so I liked the idea of a red dot! Well I think its just and LPVO nature that the image through the scope will always be distorted from left and right of scope two eyes open? Where I need to tune diopter it has a slight bit of magnification, edge distortion fuzz (at 1x only) and the image inside the scope sits a tad lower than actual eye sight image. The eye relief on LPVOs are good enough to have great situational awareness but...I can still locate the red dot easy enough in spite. Disappointed? not quite but I am not in love and it has me questioning LPVOs.

 

[Space Ghost]

While I'm not a big fan of the LPVO, but I do have one. It's the PA 1-8 with the ACSS reticle.
The eyebox is big enough to be pretty fast at 1x, and it's nice to have the 8x available, but of course, being a "scope" rather than a "sight" that scope shadow is always gonna be a thing... even at 1x.
I prefer my red dots to the LPVO at 1x. Nothing is faster, and more forgiving.
Then again, I prefer the LPVO to a red dot with a magnifier for far away shots... Go figure.

I'll say this, If I could only have one rifle though... I'd snag up the one with the red dot.
I'm much more worried about missing a shot at a close target, than one at a target 300 yds away.
Things are likely to be a lot more time sensitive up close, and that split second may just mean all the difference.
I know it did in Iraq... twice.
Thank God I didn't have a LVPO.

OK I didn't have a red dot then, I had an Eo-Tech at the time, but still, same thing. Zero scope shadow to worry about.

 

[Bamper]

While I'm not a big fan of the LPVO, but I do have one. It's the PA 1-8 with the ACSS reticle.
The eyebox is big enough to be pretty fast at 1x, and it's nice to have the 8x available, but of course, being a "scope" rather than a "sight" that scope shadow is always gonna be a thing... even at 1x.
I prefer my red dots to the LPVO at 1x. Nothing is faster, and more forgiving.
Then again, I prefer the LPVO to a red dot with a magnifier for far away shots... Go figure.

I'll say this, If I could only have one rifle though... I'd snag up the one with the red dot.
I'm much more worried about missing a shot at a close target, than one at a target 300 yds away.
Things are likely to be a lot more time sensitive up close, and that split second may just mean all the difference.
I know it did in Iraq... twice.
Thank God I didn't have a LVPO.

OK I didn't have a red dot then, I had an Eo-Tech at the time, but still, same thing. Zero scope shadow to worry about.

Here here I love my Aimpoint micro!

That said there are training videos showing an LPVO can be within 90-95% speed or near equal to a red dot at close range.

Having seen battle what do you think of an LPVO left on max magnification and a 45 red dot? Ive been seeing more and more SF guys saying they run this and feel its the future of optics. Maybe the Luepold Dvo will make a comeback lol

 

[Hookeye]

Ive only messed w the Steiner ( not mine ).
Indeed, it was impressive. Not a bad day light wise and the thing was vivid. The dot was brigjt enough and not overpowering.
The one i looked at was 1500.bucks.

 

[Zerodefect]

LPVO are a very personalized choice. How did you like the Credo at lower magnification? 8x is a bit much for most things. Also it might be mounted too close or far away, for you.

It seemed more forgiving at 4x. I also like the thinner reticle. The larger dots might be easier to pick up, but they're a bit messy for target work. But at lower magnification, the Credo's circle dot works fine for me. I used a Magpul ACR stock to alleviate the scope shadow issue at 8x. The ACR is pretty fat, and offers a more consistent cheek weld.

Everything is a trade off. Super bright reticle = fat messy reticle. (I just turn off illumination in bright light, I prefer a thin black crosshair)

 

[Space Ghost]

Here here I love my Aimpoint micro!

That said there are training videos showing an LPVO can be within 90-95% speed or near equal to a red dot at close range.

Having seen battle what do you think of an LPVO left on max magnification and a 45 red dot? Ive been seeing more and more SF guys saying they run this and feel its the future of optics. Maybe the Luepold Dvo will make a comeback lol

Don't know. Just a regular grunt. Don't train quite as hard as the SF guys. Zero experience with anything at 45 degrees. Maybe if I had been in Afghanistan taking longer shots. My deployments were in the Macedonia, and Iraq, so I was only in closer range engagements.

 

[Bamper]

LPVO are a very personalized choice. How did you like the Credo at lower magnification? 8x is a bit much for most things. Also it might be mounted too close or far away, for you.

It seemed more forgiving at 4x. I also like the thinner reticle. The larger dots might be easier to pick up, but they're a bit messy for target work. But at lower magnification, the Credo's circle dot works fine for me. I used a Magpul ACR stock to alleviate the scope shadow issue at 8x. The ACR is pretty fat, and offers a more consistent cheek weld.

Everything is a trade off. Super bright reticle = fat messy reticle. (I just turn off illumination in bright light, I prefer a thin black crosshair)

I have the 308 BDC reticle with single illuminated 2 moa red dot. For me its very familiar to aimpoint red dots so I like it, alos its def daytime bright unlike the segmented circles. Scope shadow at 6x is pretty picky and I most likely will get a new stock. I threw a Fab defense skeletonized stock on there because it was super lightweight, but I dont like it so much.

 

[Bamper]

Don't know. Just a regular grunt. Don't train quite as hard as the SF guys. Zero experience with anything at 45 degrees. Maybe if I had been in Afghanistan taking longer shots. My deployments were in the Macedonia, and Iraq, so I was only in closer range engagements.

I have no exp either but I have shouldered and moved the rifle as if I did quite a bit. They were talking about using red dot to locate at 300 meters or even more then rotating to LPVO and crosshairs literally line up. Garand thumb has a vid with a seal and an irish american who is much older and TONS of exp. After all his time an LPVO with 45 red dot is his go to.

Close up yea I understand you, plain ol red dot or eotech is very effective. For me I liked the aimpoint red dots. Single dot, very defined and precise brightness for days.

 

[Hookeye]

My DD offset mount puts my reflex in same arc as my irons ( and scope when I had one). Just rotate. Worked great.

But it did hang out to the side a bit.

 

[Bamper]

Took a pic of my Trijicon Credo HX264 main gripe. At 1x you can see the image in the scope view is about 10% lower than peripheral vision. This is not a camera trick, this is what I see EXACTLY and makes both eyes open 1x with red dot in middle, currently not illuminated, almost useable. Its disorienting.

What LPVOs dont do this? Are any actually useable at 1x? I'm heavily leaning to the Trijicon accupoint 3-9x40 with and RMR on an offset.

 

[Jonesy814]

Here here I love my Aimpoint micro!

That said there are training videos showing an LPVO can be within 90-95% speed or near equal to a red dot at close range.

Having seen battle what do you think of an LPVO left on max magnification and a 45 red dot? Ive been seeing more and more SF guys saying they run this and feel its the future of optics. Maybe the Luepold Dvo will make a comeback lol

Swampfox makes a set of rings and an LPVO mount that is set up to mount an offset red dot right on the mount. Tip the rifle to the side and its there

 

[Driftertank]

Took a pic of my Trijicon Credo HX264 main gripe. At 1x you can see the image in the scope view is about 10% lower than peripheral vision. This is not a camera trick, this is what I see EXACTLY and makes both eyes open 1x with red dot in middle, currently not illuminated, almost useable. Its disorienting.

What LPVOs dont do this? Are any actually useable at 1x? I'm heavily leaning to the Trijicon accupoint 3-9x40 with and RMR on an offset.
View attachment 1089565

Just a thought; try adjusting the ocular focus out. Some have a limited focus range, while others I have played with will go out of focus then come back in again but with some of the parallax dialled out, like there's multiple focal nodes. Sounds dumb or nonsensical, but worth a try.

 

[Driftertank]

Hey guys,

I've probably mentioned that over the course of the last six months or so, I've been working toward making a transition from red dots to LPVO's. Man, it seems that LPVOs are a hot topic these days. The internet/youtube is showered with reviews and guys saying that this is better than that or you should upgrade from this to that for whatever reason.

I've never been shy about spending money, but I'm not into throwing it away either. I've always been about bang for the buck, but also wanting good stuff. It doesn't need to be expensive, but good stuff usually costs.

After trying I don't know how many LPVOs, I've wound up with three. Two of which I know I'm going to keep and I'm not sure about the 3rd.

Like many, I just had to get a Vortex PST Gen II. I can't say enough about this scope. For once, what you read on the internet is true. It really is 90% of what the razor is at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. The only down side is weight. The PST in a Warne 1.9 mount comes in right at 2lbs. Yikes!! I actually had, until today, thoughts of selling it. I'll get back to this.

Due to the weight and size (yes, it's physically big), I started looking for something smaller and LIGHTER. I stumbled across some reviews on the Steiner P4xi. I thought, hmmm, what the Gen I PST should have been. Research further showed that this scope once sold for like $500, so I went shopping. Man, it's going for almost $900 now. Well I did a little digging around and found them as demos for $650, so I grabbed one. I had to see what all of the hype is about. Boy, am I glad I did. This has become my favorite LPVO. It's small, at around 10 inches long, and relatively light, at around 17oz plus the mount. The thing has it all. Super bright dot reticle. The reticle itself has holdovers that are pretty handy with info from Strelok. The eye relief is perfect and the eye box is very forgiving. This thing is fast too. It didn't take long to get used to it and my times on longer shots actually went down when running this thing at 1.5 or 2X. If you don't need more than 4X magnification, this scope is a hands down winner.

I needed one more scope. My knee jerk reaction was to just get another P4xi, but I went surfing the web and ran across a couple of reviews for the Delta Stryker. I heard some really good stuff, but to me, Delta is an unknown. My research on the Stryker did lead me to the Trijicon Credo HX 1-6X. One reviewer said they were about the same scope, both being manufactured in Japan by LOW. I also found them on sale for $800. An inch longer than the Steiner and about an ounce heavier. Man, I had to have it. Based on the reviews, it was going to blow the Steiner and PST out of the water.

Well, I got the Credo in yesterday. Mounted it up and took 3 boom sticks with me out to the range. I'm not the kind of guy that will take a scope and sit there and stare through it and pick apart every little thing. I take a scope, run it and I either like it or I don't. Well, after all day and 500 rounds, I was able to form some opinions based on a direct comparison.

The P4xi was worth every penny. Light and small enough not to slow you down. Shooting around obstacles was easy. The dot was always visible so even if you were out of the eye box, you could still see the dot and make shots with both eyes open. This scope is a dream. Definitely keeping this one and it is now deemed worthy of a $300+ mount.

The PST? Is a champ. Every thing the P4xi is at a lower cost with more magnification, if you don't mind the size and weight. What the P4 and the PST had in common (other than great optics) was that when you're in an odd position, as you move out of the eye box, you can see the shadow moving in, but you can still see the reticle and make your shot. If you have a PST and are thinking about upgrading, but don't know what the get, do your research and try to do a hands on trial of what you are thinking about upgrading too. I recently got to shoot with a Swaro Z6i. Yes, it was "better" but for me, it wasn't close to being $1600 better. Not in terms of performance. Personally, I think you're gonna have to spend a whole lot of money to beat the PST, unless the weight is the driving factor. As for upgrading to the Razor, I know the Razor is tough, but for me, I didn't see what the extra money was getting me.

Now, to the reason I'm keeping the PST. As I mentioned, I recently got a Trijicon Credo HX 1-6x. Maybe the use of the word "disappointed" doesn't quite fit, but it's the best one I have. It really isn't what I thought it was going to be. I mean, the dot reticle was bright. As bright as the P4 and PST. The BDC reticle was useful (again with info from Strelok) and the glass was very nice. About on par with the Steiner and maybe a hair better than the PST. What I envisioned when I ordered it was going to be like a 6X P4xi.

Remember how I was talking about scope shadow setting in when you move out of the eye box with the P4 and PST? Well, with the Credo, when you move out of the eye box, you start to see the hint of shadow. This is where on the PST and P4, you can push it a bit because you can still see your target through the scope through the half of the scope that the shadow isn't covering. On the Credo, you see the hint of shadow and when you push it a bit more, the whole image blacks out. This was a pain in the butt when running at max magnification. I don't know how to articulate this. The eye box isn't super tight, but there's no room for error. You're either in the box or you aren't.

Honestly, I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the one I got. I really wish I would have played with it more before I mounted it up, but it was late when I could get to it and I wanted to get to the range today. Now I can't return it. I'm seriously wishing I would have just grabbed another P4xi.

Another thing that's rubbing me wrong is that when dusk started to set in, it looked to me like the PST pulled in more light. Pfft. Whodda thunk? So, I'm gonna keep the PST on a rifle that does duty where weight isn't so much of a factor and I'm more likely to need the magnification. The P4 is staying on my 11.3" build where the Credo was supposed to go.

Well, the moral of this story? Try it before you mount it and the internet is full of lies. LOL

Have the PST Gen II on my ranch rifle, in an ADM mount. Svelte and lightweight it's not, but rock-solid and returns to zero.

I had the Gen I on it before, and I kinda miss the TMCQ "Donut of Death" reticle, but the extra magnification and super bright center dot is worth the trade off, IMO.

 

[TonyAngel]

Yeah, I'm still on the fence with that credo hx. It's a nice scope. There are many reasons why I should love it, but I just don't. It's likely going on the chopping block and I'm probably gonna lose a ton trying to move that thing.

I've gotta say again, though... If you're like me and maybe your eyes just aren't what they used to be and you just need that little something extra, that little Steiner P4xi is really something special. Maybe the fact that's its only a 4x lends to why it's so darned good at pretending to be a red dot. I was running drills with it today and no matter how off axis you are, as long as your looking into the scope, you can see the dot. Now, most times, I don't even worry about it. Both eyes open, dot on the target ... squeeze.

No kidding, I've probably gone through 8 or 10 scopes and the Steiner is my favorite. Better 1x than anything I've seen. If 4x is enough for what you do, don't let the price tag scare you. It'll be a keeper for life. For me, when I decided to go with magnification, I started with a magnifier. My red dot magnifier combo weighed 19oz. The P4 in my chosen mount weighs 23oz. It's a no brainer for me. My cousin just bought a Z6i 1-6x and it's really nice with bells and whistles, but the glass was very similar to the steiner. I wasn't jealous.

And the dot is truly daylight bright.

The PST just hits so far above its weight class that you can't go wrong, but despite what I said above, I'm moving it. I got a deal on a Razor gen ii E. It's just a PST only more so. I figured since I'm making permanent equipment choices, I might as well go all the way.

 

[greyling22]

I forget the exact delta models, but there are 2. a nicer one and a cheaper one. I got to look through the cheaper one. it was optically about the same as a burris rt6 I had with me that day, and the burris is slightly better than an original vortex strike eagle or primary arms slx 1-6x. at least to my eyes.

for truly lightweight, I like the little leupold freedom 1.5-4x. yes, it isn't a true 1x, and no illumination, but it is 9" long and 9 oz. and fairly cheap.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'll tell you what I miss. That little 1-3X20 that weaver used to sell. Less than 10" long, less than 10oz and Japanese glass.

 

[Peakbagger46]

You may look into the Nightforce 1-8 NX-8. Ridiculously pricy but VERY nice. I thought I was happy with my Vortex PST 1-6, but had to send it back TWICE for service and didn’t trust it. The NX8 is very light and runs like a red dot on 1X.

 

[TonyAngel]

I like the NX8, but I wanted a second focal plane reticle and I wasn't crazy about the NF reticles.

I settled on this...


I really like the Razor. It's little heavier, but I don't mind.

 

[Bamper]

I like the NX8, but I wanted a second focal plane reticle and I wasn't crazy about the NF reticles.

I settled on this...
View attachment 1092518

I really like the Razor. It's little heavier, but I don't mind.

Nice you got your Razor! little extra weight on a .223 short barrel not so bad at all. Looking forward to a mini review compared to your explanations above in this thread

Ive heard great things about the NX8, and optics really are a personalized thing and then more personal reticle choice. The only negative thing I heard about the NX8 was the bigger bearded guy from 1911 syndicate Youtube channel. He had it at Thunder Ranch and was hating it, Clint gave him some **** too lol! But he just wasnt a fan of FFP for a LPVO and fast target acquisition, changing from cqb to far out back to mid range, etc. But again to each his own, whatever gets you on targets! Nightforce is seriously world class.

Got the in return credit for my Trijicon Credo 1-6...Ordered the Trijicon TR-20 3-9x40mm (Mil dot with Amber/Gold dot reticle) to run with offset RDS. The TR-20 weighs 13.4oz, RDS will be about 1.5oz-ish plus mounts (undecided). I went and seen a few random LPVO's at Sportsmens and it kinda solidified my opinions on 1x and LPVOS not for me. Seen a few cheaper options like strike eagle, seen the 1-8 Trijicon Credo which DID NOT have the scope image being low like I posted above on my 1-6 Credo. I actually think my 1-6 credo was defective, I seen a few videos and pics and scope view while not being perfectly aligned was MUCH BETTER than mine. Also it was a touch high ever so slightly like I seen through the 1-8 Credo in person, not way low like mine. Also seen a Luepold $1500 model cant remember exact name. Anyways again to each his own, I ran RDS too much to like a 1x LPVO. And I'll be at about 15oz total for both optics.

The Razor I believe is made at Light optical works in Japan where Trijicon is made, or at least Ive seen it mentioned multiple places. Not made in Phillipines like other vortex lines. Congrats dude!

 

[TonyAngel]

I wanted to revist this subject for a minute. Man, getting my rig just right has been a long road, but I figured what the heck? My youngest kid finished college last year and I've been divorced for 5 and am mostly single. Of all of the scopes I tried, I've sold or returned all of them, but two. I actually kept two rigs and have partner goto guns.

For the price of $1000 on the used market for a Razor Gen II-E, it just can't be beat. If you can stand the extra 4oz, the older heavier model can be had for around $700 used or $1000 brand spankin new. This scope truly hits above its weight class. I have probably 2K rounds on it now and I continue to be impressed. I'm not saying it's the best scope around, but it isn't bad at anything. You'd have to spend a lot more money for an incremental improvement. The Razor is to more expensive scopes, what the PST is to the Razor. Mostly there. There's a reason why almost every review of a high end scope mentions the Razor. It's pretty much a standard and rightfully so. I could rant about this scope for hours. My only complaint is the weight. I kept the Razor on my 12.5" Criterion build. As it turns out, that extra inch over an 11.5, or in my case an 11.3, really adds some zing. I'm getting about 2650 fps with my 11.3 and right at 2800 with the Criterion barrel. Maybe, 12.5 is just a sweet spot. In any case, I thought this rig could use the extra magnification.

On my 11.3 I was staying with the Steiner P4xi. Man, that is a killer little scope. The 1X is truly fast with a very forgiving eye box and at 4X I think it would give 6X's in it's price range a run for their money simply due to the quality of the glass.

You wouldn't believe what I settled on though. I was in my local gunshop and they had a Trijicon ACOG T31F in the case. Just out of curiosity, I took a look at it. Geez, I had forgotten how clear the glass in those things is. I sat there and played with it for a good half an hour. I have run the 1.5X and 3X extensively, but never spent any real quality time with a 4X. Yes, the eye relief is short, but that is only to get a full field of view, which is close to 40 feet at 100 yards. It's huge. I also found that the ACOG begins to be super useable at about 2.5" Not bad at all. So, the wheels started to turn and the smoke started coming out of my ears. Memories of shooting my 3X with both eyes open at close distances came to mind. The next thing I knew, my credit card was in my hand. LOL.

Well, I got it mounted up and took it to the range. Boy, is that a nice scope, but ... close up, it was a no go. I was faster with the P4xi up close and just had to dial for the longer shots. As for the longer shots, I actually think the glass in the ACOG is a little better than that of the Steiner, (might be my subconscious justifying my purchase) but what really struck me was how much more of a field of view I had with the ACOG. So, how was I going to reconcile this? I loved the Steiner, but the ACOG was better at distance and lighter in weight. Well, I was watching youtube and ran across a video that mentioned the Arisaka offset mount. I'm not wild about offsets because most require a 45* cant and I don't like chicken winging it. It turns out that the Arisaka can be set up for a 35* cant. Man, did that make a difference. Yeah, I got that mount and set it up the way I liked it and what can I say?

The setup with the offset red dot is blazing fast. Transitioning from up close to far away is just a twist of the wrist away.

So, that's what I settled on. The Razor for my setup with some legs and the ACOG and offset for my up closeish rig. I'm happy now. Still, I'm kinda wishing I hadn't sold the Steiner.

In the end, I can make a couple of statements and feel that I'm not too far off course. If you want a true do it all rig to cover most situations, this is going to involve some sort of magnification. If the longest shot you will make is about 400 yards, the Steiner P4xi is a no brainer. I've seen them go on sale for about $650 new and $400 to $500ish used. If you need a little more magnification, the Razor, hands down; unless of course, money is no object, then there is better, but not by much.

 

[Bamper]

I wanted to revist this subject for a minute. Man, getting my rig just right has been a long road, but I figured what the heck? My youngest kid finished college last year and I've been divorced for 5 and am mostly single. Of all of the scopes I tried, I've sold or returned all of them, but two. I actually kept two rigs and have partner goto guns.

For the price of $1000 on the used market for a Razor Gen II-E, it just can't be beat. If you can stand the extra 4oz, the older heavier model can be had for around $700 used or $1000 brand spankin new. This scope truly hits above its weight class. I have probably 2K rounds on it now and I continue to be impressed. I'm not saying it's the best scope around, but it isn't bad at anything. You'd have to spend a lot more money for an incremental improvement. The Razor is to more expensive scopes, what the PST is to the Razor. Mostly there. There's a reason why almost every review of a high end scope mentions the Razor. It's pretty much a standard and rightfully so. I could rant about this scope for hours. My only complaint is the weight. I kept the Razor on my 12.5" Criterion build. As it turns out, that extra inch over an 11.5, or in my case an 11.3, really adds some zing. I'm getting about 2650 fps with my 11.3 and right at 2800 with the Criterion barrel. Maybe, 12.5 is just a sweet spot. In any case, I thought this rig could use the extra magnification.

On my 11.3 I was staying with the Steiner P4xi. Man, that is a killer little scope. The 1X is truly fast with a very forgiving eye box and at 4X I think it would give 6X's in it's price range a run for their money simply due to the quality of the glass.

You wouldn't believe what I settled on though. I was in my local gunshop and they had a Trijicon ACOG T31F in the case. Just out of curiosity, I took a look at it. Geez, I had forgotten how clear the glass in those things is. I sat there and played with it for a good half an hour. I have run the 1.5X and 3X extensively, but never spent any real quality time with a 4X. Yes, the eye relief is short, but that is only to get a full field of view, which is close to 40 feet at 100 yards. It's huge. I also found that the ACOG begins to be super useable at about 2.5" Not bad at all. So, the wheels started to turn and the smoke started coming out of my ears. Memories of shooting my 3X with both eyes open at close distances came to mind. The next thing I knew, my credit card was in my hand. LOL.

Well, I got it mounted up and took it to the range. Boy, is that a nice scope, but ... close up, it was a no go. I was faster with the P4xi up close and just had to dial for the longer shots. As for the longer shots, I actually think the glass in the ACOG is a little better than that of the Steiner, (might be my subconscious justifying my purchase) but what really struck me was how much more of a field of view I had with the ACOG. So, how was I going to reconcile this? I loved the Steiner, but the ACOG was better at distance and lighter in weight. Well, I was watching youtube and ran across a video that mentioned the Arisaka offset mount. I'm not wild about offsets because most require a 45* cant and I don't like chicken winging it. It turns out that the Arisaka can be set up for a 35* cant. Man, did that make a difference. Yeah, I got that mount and set it up the way I liked it and what can I say?

The setup with the offset red dot is blazing fast. Transitioning from up close to far away is just a twist of the wrist away.

So, that's what I settled on. The Razor for my setup with some legs and the ACOG and offset for my up closeish rig. I'm happy now. Still, I'm kinda wishing I hadn't sold the Steiner.

In the end, I can make a couple of statements and feel that I'm not too far off course. If you want a true do it all rig to cover most situations, this is going to involve some sort of magnification. If the longest shot you will make is about 400 yards, the Steiner P4xi is a no brainer. I've seen them go on sale for about $650 new and $400 to $500ish used. If you need a little more magnification, the Razor, hands down; unless of course, money is no object, then there is better, but not by much.

Oh no you sold the Steiner! I'm surprised lol, bot funding new gear can get spendy!

What Red dot you go with for offset?

I need to see a Razor Gen II or any in person. From last comment I went and seen whatever they had at Sportsmans, Trijicon Credo 1-8 which would never do at 32 oz but it looked MUCH better than my 1-6 Credo. In scope view which was way low (I think defective) was only 2-3% maybe and panning the store I think 1x would have been useable. Seen a Luepold that was $1500, glass was crazy good but it had some alignment issues and fish eye on 1x I wasn't a fan. Then several cheaper options that were awful. IMHO I have no idea why anyone would buy those cheaper models, they were bad.

I have in hand a Trijicon TR-20 3-9x40mm scope at a petite 13.4oz and a Holosun 515CM at 3.43oz. I come in at 17.9oz which is still lighter than nearly all LPVO options, I have 9x zoom option and the glass is very nice Triji glass with milspec reticle and amber dot. The dot is a measly 0.17 MOA and fiber optic powered and pure sunlight it bleeds over to prolly a 1MOA dot and def daytime bright. The tritium does work at night but I can see where the desire for illuminated reticle would be desirable. But with a weapon light like the CD Reign 2.0 you can see a darn good bit at night.
Also found the Arisaka Offset mount in my research and the 35 degrees to pair up with a Wilson Combat 1.75 high scope mount, still waiting on mounts. IDK perhaps my noob mind or lack of exp but this setup seems better than a 1x LPVO with offset like the entire world runs. Again I am on 308win platform so weight is huge deal.

I'd still love a fixed 8-10 power scope that is ultra light with offset RDS. Could get optics around acog/RDS weight!

Glad you have 'enhanced' your setup better to your liking, I suppose thats what its all about

 

[TonyAngel]

Yeah, I sold the Steiner. Like I said, I regret it, I should have kept it just to have it, but I'm really not the kind of guy that buys stuff just to have it. I tend to build a rifle/pistol with a purpose and build it top to bottom and it pretty much stays that way. I settle on what I like and practice with it as much as I can and become as proficient as I can. That's more important with magnified optics because most models act differently when being used.

I'm pretty happy with what I have. I just get better and better with the Razor with practice. I really, really like that scope. I've become really spoiled by the eye box.

As for the ACOG setup, I used a Holosun 407K. It is a bit smaller than other offerings and I wanted to keep it as small as possible. Since I want that setup to be as bomb proof as possible and now that I know it's the way I want to go, I might start looking into going with the smaller RMR or an Acro. I'll probably wind up throwing the Holosun on the rig with the Razor, just as a backup sighting system, since I don't run open sights any more.