wgungho
Member
Roger that.
M-14 vs M-16 a heated debate on which is a "better" rifle
- Thread starter GarandOwner
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SnakeEater
Member
I've got two points.
#1. The M14 and clones are NOT 1moa rifles, unless accurized. That is a fact, Jack.
#2. The HK-91 series is better than both.
#1. The M14 and clones are NOT 1moa rifles, unless accurized. That is a fact, Jack.
#2. The HK-91 series is better than both.
Again... I'm going to the Hangun section to start a 9mm vs. 45acp debate.
Something not addressed, for every 1 grunt there's about 4 not infantry MOS's. The M14 is heavy, and that big .30 round isn't needed in a weapon that doesn't see any combat, that's just there for personal security and a show of force. There are alot of service personel that don't fire a single round outside the wire in Iraq, there are many that leave the wire that don't fire more than 30 rounds for thier whole tour in Iraq. The War fare in Iraq is different from anything ever seen in the last 60 years, Afganistan is a wide open country of brush and mountains. A M14 may be a better choice over there, but it isn't practicle to have one unit out fitted with M14's and another with M16's. We train with M16 out of boot camp, we train with them for predeployment, there are few service personel that can shoot an M16 to it's capablitys, M16A4's will reach out to 800m with ACOGS highly acurately.
The M24 and M40 Sniper rifles earn thier keep, and from what I'm told a sniper rifle w/o scope costs the USMC about $700 in parts, not to include the armorers labor, if that armorer lives in the barraks and eats in the chow hall, that's one cheap sub MOA rifle. The .308 isn't going any were. Fallujah in April of 2004 is the only time our squads DMR came out of its Pelican Case, for all of about 3 days, it's too heavy, too bulky and too fragile for an Infantry or Engineer squad to be out humping around. There are M14's mixed into the units, M21's and M25's are in use, just not as much as the M16 but they are out there and they serve there purpose as 'special purpose' weapons, not as 'general purpose', like the M16's.
The war we're faceing now... the enemy is ununiformed and it's a war of quick manuver, with little cover at times. It's a land of keeping boots on the deck, patroling the city and rural area, it's a land of convoy operations and supply routes. The M16 is the most versitile weapon in the US arsenal, 9mm Sub-Calibers, M16A4's with ACOGS that will reach out to 800 meters, M16M4/M16M41 Carbines for raids and true urban war fare weapons. The M16 has the advantage of allowing quick follow up shots, even though it won't shoot through trees (which there aren't many trees in down town Bagdad to take cover behind). The M16 is light, the ammo is light. In a good fire fight, a Soldier or Marine can fire several hundred rounds acurately, w/o being beaten up by his rifle. The M14 is a shoulder killer, just like the M1. One shot-One Kill is a fantacy of open land battle, (go back to Bellawood), in an urban enviroment you may need to keep supressive fire going long enough to get a man in close enough with a M203 or M79 to fire a gernade into the room, cause you're little buddy up there shooting at you isn't going to just pop up for you to get a shot on him, light supresive fire that won't tear through the mud hut walls into the school next door (oh there's a plus to the 5.56mm ability not to penitrate?).
When it comes down to weight advantage, you can't beat the little M16 with 5.56mm. We have up gunned trucks and mechanized patroling to haul around our 240G, M2's and MK19's along with our TOW's. What the guys on the ground need is light weight and manuverability, that's what tracer rounds and smoke are for, to mark the target and dirrect the heavier guns. We're not shooting through jungle foliage, we're not shooting out past 300m in most cases, most of the 500+meter shots I've seen were out of true boardom, shooting armed Fallujah-ians at 800m, while waiting for the word to move in.
The stuff my squad would wear and haul around when I was in Iraq and was pretty standard over 2 tours; M16A4, double combat load, ACOGS, 2-M67 hand gernades, 1-red smoke, 1-green smoke, 2-pop up flares, Flak with E-sappi plates, Side Sappi plates, deltoid protectors, Kevlar, IFAK first aid kit and suplimental first aid kit, Intersquad radios, 2-AN/PSS-14's, Camel back, chow, assult pack and butt pack, knife of some sort, gerber, 3-M203 per squad and combat load of 18-40mm HEDP, 3-M79 with 18-40mm, 500 rounds of linked 5.56mm to the A/SAW and rifleman, have 1-PRC119 per squad, VHF radio, 2-M1014 Benelli shot guns and rounds, 3-SAW's with 800 rounds linked, 1-10lb sledge, 1-hooligan tool, C-4, det cord, electric and non/electric caps, M60 ignighters, maps, pens, flashlights, batteries of 3 differnt types, cem lights, IR cem lights, M9 and 60 rounds if you're lucky... then there's toys and candy for the kids too, don't forget that. Spread load all this crap over a 13 man squad, plus a radio man, plus a Corpsman... you get some pretty hard men, that eventually end up with joint problems and exhaustion after a few days outside the wire. The strap this crap on thier backs for 7 month rotations, then come back home for a few months and start back into build ups to be back in Iraq about the same time they left the year before, and people wonder why the military retention rate sucks.
I'm out of the Engineer MOS at the moment, but you want us to patrol with heavier rifles on top of all that stuff too... how are you going to put a M203 on a M14? Cause I'm not giveing them up, even with haveing M79's back in the USMC armorys now. How long is it going to take to train us up on the M14? How? are you going to put picitinny rails, Pac-4's, surefires and all the other crap we have, ergonomicly and comfortable? You aren't, sorry.
The M14 served it's purpose; but the current war is all about; high-speed/low-drag and light loads, we need a weapon that can get us back on target quickly and that requires minimal recoil. The M16 and it's variants are purposely serveing. It doesn't take that much to keep a M16 running smothly, just a bit of respect for the mechanics that your life depends on.
I really don't know why everyone has such a distain for the M16? It's a killing machine, sure it could use a bit more knock down power, but it works.
Dirrections for 3-round burst (when fired correctly it's great), aim for the crotch, squeze 1 time, 3 rounds go out, walk up to hodji you were aiming at, you find one in the crotch, one in the gut and one in the chest, 3 little pencil holes... alot easier than trying to shoot controled pairs. After 72 hours out side the wire, you start looking for simple ways to do things effectively.
Something not addressed, for every 1 grunt there's about 4 not infantry MOS's. The M14 is heavy, and that big .30 round isn't needed in a weapon that doesn't see any combat, that's just there for personal security and a show of force. There are alot of service personel that don't fire a single round outside the wire in Iraq, there are many that leave the wire that don't fire more than 30 rounds for thier whole tour in Iraq. The War fare in Iraq is different from anything ever seen in the last 60 years, Afganistan is a wide open country of brush and mountains. A M14 may be a better choice over there, but it isn't practicle to have one unit out fitted with M14's and another with M16's. We train with M16 out of boot camp, we train with them for predeployment, there are few service personel that can shoot an M16 to it's capablitys, M16A4's will reach out to 800m with ACOGS highly acurately.
The M24 and M40 Sniper rifles earn thier keep, and from what I'm told a sniper rifle w/o scope costs the USMC about $700 in parts, not to include the armorers labor, if that armorer lives in the barraks and eats in the chow hall, that's one cheap sub MOA rifle. The .308 isn't going any were. Fallujah in April of 2004 is the only time our squads DMR came out of its Pelican Case, for all of about 3 days, it's too heavy, too bulky and too fragile for an Infantry or Engineer squad to be out humping around. There are M14's mixed into the units, M21's and M25's are in use, just not as much as the M16 but they are out there and they serve there purpose as 'special purpose' weapons, not as 'general purpose', like the M16's.
The war we're faceing now... the enemy is ununiformed and it's a war of quick manuver, with little cover at times. It's a land of keeping boots on the deck, patroling the city and rural area, it's a land of convoy operations and supply routes. The M16 is the most versitile weapon in the US arsenal, 9mm Sub-Calibers, M16A4's with ACOGS that will reach out to 800 meters, M16M4/M16M41 Carbines for raids and true urban war fare weapons. The M16 has the advantage of allowing quick follow up shots, even though it won't shoot through trees (which there aren't many trees in down town Bagdad to take cover behind). The M16 is light, the ammo is light. In a good fire fight, a Soldier or Marine can fire several hundred rounds acurately, w/o being beaten up by his rifle. The M14 is a shoulder killer, just like the M1. One shot-One Kill is a fantacy of open land battle, (go back to Bellawood), in an urban enviroment you may need to keep supressive fire going long enough to get a man in close enough with a M203 or M79 to fire a gernade into the room, cause you're little buddy up there shooting at you isn't going to just pop up for you to get a shot on him, light supresive fire that won't tear through the mud hut walls into the school next door (oh there's a plus to the 5.56mm ability not to penitrate?).
When it comes down to weight advantage, you can't beat the little M16 with 5.56mm. We have up gunned trucks and mechanized patroling to haul around our 240G, M2's and MK19's along with our TOW's. What the guys on the ground need is light weight and manuverability, that's what tracer rounds and smoke are for, to mark the target and dirrect the heavier guns. We're not shooting through jungle foliage, we're not shooting out past 300m in most cases, most of the 500+meter shots I've seen were out of true boardom, shooting armed Fallujah-ians at 800m, while waiting for the word to move in.
The stuff my squad would wear and haul around when I was in Iraq and was pretty standard over 2 tours; M16A4, double combat load, ACOGS, 2-M67 hand gernades, 1-red smoke, 1-green smoke, 2-pop up flares, Flak with E-sappi plates, Side Sappi plates, deltoid protectors, Kevlar, IFAK first aid kit and suplimental first aid kit, Intersquad radios, 2-AN/PSS-14's, Camel back, chow, assult pack and butt pack, knife of some sort, gerber, 3-M203 per squad and combat load of 18-40mm HEDP, 3-M79 with 18-40mm, 500 rounds of linked 5.56mm to the A/SAW and rifleman, have 1-PRC119 per squad, VHF radio, 2-M1014 Benelli shot guns and rounds, 3-SAW's with 800 rounds linked, 1-10lb sledge, 1-hooligan tool, C-4, det cord, electric and non/electric caps, M60 ignighters, maps, pens, flashlights, batteries of 3 differnt types, cem lights, IR cem lights, M9 and 60 rounds if you're lucky... then there's toys and candy for the kids too, don't forget that. Spread load all this crap over a 13 man squad, plus a radio man, plus a Corpsman... you get some pretty hard men, that eventually end up with joint problems and exhaustion after a few days outside the wire. The strap this crap on thier backs for 7 month rotations, then come back home for a few months and start back into build ups to be back in Iraq about the same time they left the year before, and people wonder why the military retention rate sucks.
I'm out of the Engineer MOS at the moment, but you want us to patrol with heavier rifles on top of all that stuff too... how are you going to put a M203 on a M14? Cause I'm not giveing them up, even with haveing M79's back in the USMC armorys now. How long is it going to take to train us up on the M14? How? are you going to put picitinny rails, Pac-4's, surefires and all the other crap we have, ergonomicly and comfortable? You aren't, sorry.
The M14 served it's purpose; but the current war is all about; high-speed/low-drag and light loads, we need a weapon that can get us back on target quickly and that requires minimal recoil. The M16 and it's variants are purposely serveing. It doesn't take that much to keep a M16 running smothly, just a bit of respect for the mechanics that your life depends on.
I really don't know why everyone has such a distain for the M16? It's a killing machine, sure it could use a bit more knock down power, but it works.
Dirrections for 3-round burst (when fired correctly it's great), aim for the crotch, squeze 1 time, 3 rounds go out, walk up to hodji you were aiming at, you find one in the crotch, one in the gut and one in the chest, 3 little pencil holes... alot easier than trying to shoot controled pairs. After 72 hours out side the wire, you start looking for simple ways to do things effectively.
also who's going to make ammo for the M14, cause most the 5.56mm ammo we shoot in the US for training is mostly made in Israel, the Ammo made state side is sent to Iraq and Afgan, so that tells me we're shooting more ammo that we can produce on our little 5.56mm, add in some logistics of shipping heavier ammo acrossed the sea too... plus the tooling to start makeing .30 again
LeonCarr
Member
Just buy the AR and the M1A, shoot them both until they become part of you, then shoot them some more. When the goblins/mutant ninja zombie bears/rabid pit bulls with AIDS/bad guys or whatever come around, at 1 yard or 1000, you will be ready.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
What has Garand Owner learned?
At age 21, you have learned that you can get a group of cranky old men to endlessly argue.
Here is what you don't know. In this group of arguing and aging men, there a few who can use either system effectively and who are familiar with both. Those few men are only interested in what works for themselves. If you want to join that small group, you are going to have to buy and use both systems, just like some other guy has told you in fewer words.
There are a few basic threds like this one and they include 9mm vs. .45acp; Glock vs Browning designed .45 auto; 30-06 auto vs .308 auto. They are endlessly unproductive.
If you are really sincere and want to OWN the best and do the best you can, there are no shortcuts. You will have to keep physically fit (no beer belly), mentally alert (not opinionated and always willing to learn), and be prepared to pay for outstanding training and take the time to do so. If you manage to do these things, you will outlive us all and enjoy your life.
At age 21, you have learned that you can get a group of cranky old men to endlessly argue.
Here is what you don't know. In this group of arguing and aging men, there a few who can use either system effectively and who are familiar with both. Those few men are only interested in what works for themselves. If you want to join that small group, you are going to have to buy and use both systems, just like some other guy has told you in fewer words.
There are a few basic threds like this one and they include 9mm vs. .45acp; Glock vs Browning designed .45 auto; 30-06 auto vs .308 auto. They are endlessly unproductive.
If you are really sincere and want to OWN the best and do the best you can, there are no shortcuts. You will have to keep physically fit (no beer belly), mentally alert (not opinionated and always willing to learn), and be prepared to pay for outstanding training and take the time to do so. If you manage to do these things, you will outlive us all and enjoy your life.
I guess you need to come over and explain that fact to mine, and many of those I have shot...not "accurized", just plain janes that shoot less than 1MOA. I will agree that many do not, but they do come close.
I would much rather tote a 14 than a HK91, especially if my life depended on it.
wgungho
Member
If memory serves me correctly, at Parris Island, we shot 500 yards at an 8" bullseye, using old, shot out 14s. True enough, at 500 we were prone, but anyone with a decent eye, who had listened to what they'd been taught, had an easy time hitting that little black dot. We had one UNQ, and he aced the 500 yard prone. Go figure.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
wgungho said:
Considering that this would be sub-2 MOA performance at 500yds from a rifle and ammunition that were both designed around 4 MOA performance guidelines, I am a bit skeptical here.
Also the military shows the Navy and Marine 600yd target as having about a 20" black center and being 72"x72" wide.
P-32
Member
I wasn't going to join in on this debate but with the above quote I must. Springfield Armory today is not the same Springfield Armory which was owned by the goverment and who came up with US rifles for about the last 100 or so years.
Todays S/A doesn't build M-14's they build M-1A's which is a semi auto only look alike. Knowing someone who was really in the sand box, taking your own personal weapon to war is not authorized. The military services do have a supply of M-14's which they hold. The M-14 is still the Navy's "service rifle".
I've never shot either the M-1, M-14 or M-16/AR with someone shooting back. I have fired these rifles in matches. Out of all of them I've shot out 3 M-14 match barrels and love the platform. Currently I'm shooting a top shelf AR. I have to tell you the AR is SO much easier to shoot although I have not beat my best M-14 score as of yet. I've come with in a point 3 or 4 times but I was much younger and eyes were better and on top of my game.
Neither the M-14 or the M-16 will make it to 600 yards very well without using match ammo which is not used in combat. The M-14 would come a little closer with 308 ball and it's 147 gr bullet than 223 ball. If you think you are just going to crank in some elevation in the irons to 600 yards and put a guy down, you haven't shot much at 600. The average shooter isn't going to do it with glass either. At that range, even the mirage pushes the bullets around. At least I get sighters and have a spotting scope and have some knowelge of doping the wind to get to the ten ring.
I have fired a M-14/M-16 in full auto. The targets at 200 yards were pretty safe with both. The 16 didn't beat me up as much but after a couple of rounds, it was shooting over the top too.
Also, lets not forget the Russians are shooting a 22 now as well.
Tomcat1066
Member
Which is best? The one you can use most effectively!
Tom
Tom
Terrierman
Member
Different Horses for Different Courses.
wgungho
Member
I passed through the gates of Parris Island in '66. Our rifle qualification required that we fire from, 200, 300 and 500 yards. That may well have changed during the ensuing years. I consulted a fellow marine from the same era, and he said the 500 black was 8" or 10". Regardless, it was at 500 yards.
Terrierman
Member
I qualified with the M-14 too in 1970. MCRD San Diego, but Rifle Range was at Pendleton. Max range for certain was 500 yards prone. In a shooting jacket and all slinged up. I'm thinking the Bull was maybe 12" in diameter?, but at 500 yards, it was still mighty small. No way could most shooters with the rifles we were issued keep them all in the black. That would have been perfect score from that range and perfect scores were pretty rare, at least among the bunch of losers I went through boot with.
I'm trying to remember the qualification course from 1970. I think it was something like this:
100 yd. Offhand rapid fire; slow fire
200 yd. Offhand slow fire, sitting rapid fire, sitting slow fire, kneeling rapid fire, kneeling slow fire
300 yd. Sitting slow fire, kneeling slow fire, prone rapid fire, prone slow fire
500 yd. prone slow fire.
But that is strictly from memory and there have been a few losses of synapses in the intervening 36 years.
I'm trying to remember the qualification course from 1970. I think it was something like this:
100 yd. Offhand rapid fire; slow fire
200 yd. Offhand slow fire, sitting rapid fire, sitting slow fire, kneeling rapid fire, kneeling slow fire
300 yd. Sitting slow fire, kneeling slow fire, prone rapid fire, prone slow fire
500 yd. prone slow fire.
But that is strictly from memory and there have been a few losses of synapses in the intervening 36 years.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Hmmmm, I guess you must have had the Canadian ammo.
The Able target has a 12" bullseye; perhaps this was the target? Currently a silhouette (19" across) is used for the 500M target.
According to this document, the acceptance specs for the M14 were that it had to group under 5.6" at 100yds with M80 ball. Given that standard for acceptance and the ammo problems mentioned above, hitting even a 12" black at 500yds with iron sights would be quite an accomplishment.
The accuracy requirments were so low because the military determined that M80 ball by itself had accuracy issues. From a fixed barrel, 90 rounds of M80 would have an average spread of 3.57" at 100yds.
- Paris Island Recruit Company Commander 1965-1966
The Able target has a 12" bullseye; perhaps this was the target? Currently a silhouette (19" across) is used for the 500M target.
According to this document, the acceptance specs for the M14 were that it had to group under 5.6" at 100yds with M80 ball. Given that standard for acceptance and the ammo problems mentioned above, hitting even a 12" black at 500yds with iron sights would be quite an accomplishment.
The accuracy requirments were so low because the military determined that M80 ball by itself had accuracy issues. From a fixed barrel, 90 rounds of M80 would have an average spread of 3.57" at 100yds.
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aerod1
Member
I have both and I'm voting for the M-14 / M1A.
One of the things that always catches my eye in these threads is the people that want to have their cake and eat it to. They tell you that under the worst possible combat conditions, the M16 can't cut it reliability wise. Then in the next breath they tell you that as a civilian, military requirements and military tactics arn't an issue because they arn't in those conditions.
AK accuracy: I have two AKs. A WASR10 and a Polish Underfolder I built from a parts kit. I have used them in a local match and both made regular hits at 300+ yards on targets smaller than a human torso. No problem at all. We have a steel plate (smaller than a human torso) at our local range at 385 yards and I can ding it all day from the bench with either of my AKs and that Romanian is about as big of a POS as you can get. This isn't a guess, I have done it numerous times.
FWIW, I own an M1A-shot it today. I own several M1s one of which I have fired over six cases of ammo through, I own an STG58 (Austrian FAL), I own an HK G3 (built from a parts kit), I own two AKs, and of course I own a number of ARs which I have shot extensively and been through close to 10 formal classes with (I even served in the US Army, stateside, no combat).
If I had to grab one rifle from the safe when the chips were down, it would be an AR and I wouldn't even pause to consider it.
"the military as a whole didn't want the M-16"
Didn't I remember reading that the Marines didn't want to turn in their '03s either ?
AK accuracy: I have two AKs. A WASR10 and a Polish Underfolder I built from a parts kit. I have used them in a local match and both made regular hits at 300+ yards on targets smaller than a human torso. No problem at all. We have a steel plate (smaller than a human torso) at our local range at 385 yards and I can ding it all day from the bench with either of my AKs and that Romanian is about as big of a POS as you can get. This isn't a guess, I have done it numerous times.
FWIW, I own an M1A-shot it today. I own several M1s one of which I have fired over six cases of ammo through, I own an STG58 (Austrian FAL), I own an HK G3 (built from a parts kit), I own two AKs, and of course I own a number of ARs which I have shot extensively and been through close to 10 formal classes with (I even served in the US Army, stateside, no combat).
If I had to grab one rifle from the safe when the chips were down, it would be an AR and I wouldn't even pause to consider it.
"the military as a whole didn't want the M-16"
Didn't I remember reading that the Marines didn't want to turn in their '03s either ?
Drakejake
Member
Is a tack hammer better than a sledge hammer? You do the math. Different uses and functions. The world's militaries have generally moved away from long, heavy rifles firing single shots of big bullets, to short, light rifles firing bursts of small, high velocity bullets. The M14 is probably no good on full auto, but the M16 is. As a long-range or sniper round, the .308 is superior, I suppose. Firing .223 allows smaller rifles, lighter mags, and more rounds of ammo per pound. This formula seems to have worked out very well for modern infantry.
Drakejake
Drakejake
chaingunner
Member
That depends entirely on what you're using them for. Since I'm a fleet Gunner's Mate stationed on an Amphib, I say gimme my M14 and keep that plastic hunk of garbage away from me. The only time I expect to need a rifle is to cover my loaders while they reload my 25mm chaingun if SHTF while the ship is underway. If I have to shoot at small boats with a small arm, I'd like it to be the small arm chambered in a proper, honest rifle cartridge.
"but the M16 is more manuverable! That's an advantage indoors!" someone cries.
Sure. Because I'm going to use a rifle INSIDE A SHIP. No, I think I'll use my Mossberg and Beretta for shipboard CQB, thank you.
"but the M16 is more manuverable! That's an advantage indoors!" someone cries.
Sure. Because I'm going to use a rifle INSIDE A SHIP. No, I think I'll use my Mossberg and Beretta for shipboard CQB, thank you.
StrikeEagle
Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 709
http://www.cmo.nl/cc/cc-3/images/kalashnikov-stoner.jpg
Don't you wish you knew what each one was thinking!!
Don't you wish you knew what each one was thinking!!
High Planes Drifter
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Messages
- 1,204
Strike Eagle wrote:
Don't you wish you knew what each one was thinking!!
-----------------------------------------
Kalishnikov- Boy I need a drink of Vodka.
Stoner- Yeah, you may have made a more popular rifle, but you still live in a 400 s.f. apartment, dont get cable, and I just had your daughter shipped to my house from Meet a Russian Bride.com !!!!!!!!!
Don't you wish you knew what each one was thinking!!
-----------------------------------------
Kalishnikov- Boy I need a drink of Vodka.
Stoner- Yeah, you may have made a more popular rifle, but you still live in a 400 s.f. apartment, dont get cable, and I just had your daughter shipped to my house from Meet a Russian Bride.com !!!!!!!!!
MTMilitiaman
Member
Kalashnikov--How did we lose to these guys when they were armed with this? Give me my rifle back...and vodka. I need vodka.
Stoner--Commie...
Stoner--Commie...
madogre is dead on, barley adequate is about the best you will get out of me concerning the m16. I have had an m4gery in the house for a couple of weeks so my son could get familiar with it before he goes into the Marines this fall. I just gave it back to the friend who was gracious enough to let me borrow it. I must say I have bb guns that arent that flimsey. If you dropped it it would probably break. with all the technology available today you think it would be a snap to come up with somthing better. Like a light weight gallil if we must have a .22 rifle. tho i frankly think the new 6.5 round thats being worked on sounds much more promising. shotgun news had a ballistics test a cpl months back showing that m855 ball does not tumble or fragment out of the short barrelled m4 beyond 70 or 80 yards. We are the greatest military power in the world surely we can do better than this mediocre POS.
with all the technology available today you think it would be a snap to come up with somthing better. Like a light weight gallil if we must have a .22 rifle. tho i frankly think the new 6.5 round thats being worked on sounds much more promising. shotgun news had a ballistics test a cpl months back showing that m855 ball does not tumble or fragment out of the short barrelled m4 beyond 70 or 80 yards. We are the greatest military power in the world surely we can do better than this mediocre POS.Bart Noir
Member
So, wgungho,
you posted
Was there some concern about fully loading the M-14 magazines, as is commonly mentioned by many people about the M-16 mag's? I don't mean to tell you you were doing a dumb thing (others on the web are more qualified to say that, and more prone to say that...) and I thank you for you service for the good ole U S of A. But I do notice you shorted yourself the equivalent of 2 fully loaded magazines.
Bart Noir
you posted
Was there some concern about fully loading the M-14 magazines, as is commonly mentioned by many people about the M-16 mag's? I don't mean to tell you you were doing a dumb thing (others on the web are more qualified to say that, and more prone to say that...) and I thank you for you service for the good ole U S of A. But I do notice you shorted yourself the equivalent of 2 fully loaded magazines.
Bart Noir
- Status
