M1 Carbine vs. Everything Else

[Captain O]

Moderator Note: The first several posts in this thread were dragging another thread off topic. They've been moved here to allow that thread to remain open while this topic is discussed separately.

The A/O Carbines have been noted for being a bit on the "rough" side, often requiring a "break in" period of between 250-300 rounds to "smooth out" the light rifle's operation.

Don't give up on the "little rifle". The .30 Carbine isn't launching a 55 grain .22 caliber Pointed Soft Point out to 400 yards. It wasn't meant to be used beyond 200 yards. Tell me the truth. Just how many home defense/personal defense rounds are fired at a range of 200 yards? 100 yards? 50 yards? 25 yards? 10 yards perhaps, but no further.

These are "medium range" Personal Defense Weapons; they excel at these applications. To cap it all off they are, in fact, lighter than the AR class rifles. (Who needs a heavier, rifle when used at these ranges, in the field)?

I wish you the very best, and I'll join you in the ".30 Carbine Club" (once again) next year.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The A/O Carbines have been noted for being a bit on the "rough" side, often requiring a "break in" period of between 250-300 rounds to "smooth out" the light rifle's operation.

Don't give up on the "little rifle". The .30 Carbine isn't launching a 55 grain .22 caliber Pointed Soft Point out to 400 yards. It wasn't meant to be used beyond 200 yards. Tell me the truth. Just how many home defense/personal defense rounds are fired at a range of 200 yards? 100 yards? 50 yards? 25 yards? 10 yards perhaps, but no further.

These are "medium range" Personal Defense Weapons; they excel at these applications. To cap it all off they are, in fact, lighter than the AR class rifles. (Who needs a heavier, rifle when used at these ranges, in the field)?

I wish you the very best, and I'll join you in the ".30 Carbine Club" (once again) next year.

I think that farthest police sniper shot was something like 137 yards.

Some folks get way too wrapped up in having a long-range capable rifle for defense. Truth is, a 200 yard or so capable rifle such as an M1 carbine is perfect for any and all civilian and even law enforcement needs.

 

[Captain O]

Cooldill:

I agree. Most civilian shootings take place between 3 and 10 yards. Most .223 (5.56 x 45) rifles are "too much" for a household setting, and house clearing. The US Military uses them for urban and distance shooting (multiple purposes). This isn't inherently bad, but in police and civilian hands, the ammunition for Home Defense and Personal Defense in the 5.56 x 45 M4 requires changing for "house clearing" to deer hunting at longer ranges. This usually requires the rifleman to change the point-of-aim for the ammunition selected.

On the other hand, the .30 Carbine generally uses a single bullet weight for nearly every application, thus simplifying the point of impact adjustment with the rifle. It has to be done but once!

A good M1 Carbine "covers" a multitude of utilitarian applications. At times. "less is more".

Don't you think?

 

[ugaarguy]

Most .223 (5.56 x 45) rifles are "too much" for a household setting, and house clearing. The US Military uses them for urban and distance shooting (multiple purposes). This isn't inherently bad, but in police and civilian hands, the ammunition for Home Defense and Personal Defense in the 5.56 x 45 M4 requires changing for "house clearing" to deer hunting at longer ranges. This usually requires the rifleman to change the point-of-aim for the ammunition selected.

Actually soft points like Winchester's 64 grain Power Point have very low penetration after hitting hitting the first layer of sheet rock, but it's marketed as a deer hunting round. With ammo like that it's one sight in just like your beloved M1 carbine - but with less drywall penetration and a flatter trajectory for medium game hunting.

Don't you think?

No, I don't. See above.

 

[Captain O]

Now before you get too excited about the M4, the weight discrepancy between the M1 Carbine and the M4 rifle isn't inconsequential.

M4 Carbine (empty): 6.36 lbs.

M1 Carbine (empty): 5.4 lbs.

Now .94 lbs (15.04 ounces) may not seem like much, but the average civilian carrying around a pound less means more at the end of the day. If you're not in "fighting trim" nearly one pound means a lot. Aside from that, the ammunition is lighter, and consumes less propellant with the reloading of each cartridge.

What's good for the military, isn't always what's good for the civilian populace or Police department/bureau.

For the most urban applications, the 5.56 x 45 is, isn't needed.

 

[ugaarguy]

Now before you get too excited about the M4, the weight discrepancy between the M1 Carbine and the M4 rifle isn't inconsequential.

M4 Carbine (empty): 6.36 lbs.

M1 Carbine (empty): 5.4 lbs.

If I go to a lightweight contour "pencil" barrel, single heat shield handguards, and rear sight only instead of a carry handle I can drop that weight down to 5.9 lbs. That's also on a $600 retail rifle. You've admitted in other threads that the $1200 James River Rock-Ola is the minimum for a reliable M1 carbine. You're also ignoring that AR-15/M4 mags are less than half the price of M1 Carbine mags.

Now .94 lbs (15.04 ounces) may not seem like much, but the average civilian carrying around a pound less means more at the end of the day. If you're not in "fighting trim" nearly one pound means a lot.

Even at the full 6.36 lb weight an M4 beats the heck out of the 7.18 lb M16A2 the USAF had me carrying. Now that I'm not deploying to ridiculously hot places like Iraq or going on field exercises in the high desert all while wearing tens of pounds of body armor and ruck and walking far longer distances than I do as civilian that extra pound of M4 vs M1 Carbine is meaningless to me.

Aside from that, the ammunition is lighter, and consumes less propellant with the reloading of each cartridge.

Again, a few ounces here or there are meaningless now that I've lost the pounds of body armor and ruck. Further, that $600 savings of an entry level AR over an M1 Carbine, and the half price mags will buy quite a bit of powder or even factory loaded ammo.

What's good for the military, isn't always what's good for the civilian populace or Police department/bureau.

For the most urban applications, the 5.56 x 45 is, isn't needed.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with the slightly heavier rifle that's half the price, easier to mount optics on, has flatter trajectory, better terminal ballistics, exceedingly better factory and aftermarket support, and that I've been using for my entire adult life.

 

[Captain O]

Everyone and their Jack Russel Terrier has an AR-15. Are we anticipating full battle conditions? Probably not. If most carbines are well maintained, the .30 Carbine gives up very little to the 5.56 out to 200 yards. I'm not a "range rat" that is out to show off the latest "chrome-plated kick-starter", nor do I need "bragging rights" because I have the latest optics or some other accessory. Many shooters by their carbine to discuss, more than shoot. That's not me. I look past the thin veneer of marketing and look to a fundamental "working rifle" not a ultra-modern "death ray". I'm not killing men at 400 yards. The ranges the average civilian is involved will be about 20 yards. More power? Why? it isn't needed. The of machismo of shooting someone five times with ultra high-velocity ammunition is a moot point in a home/personal defense situation. "Because I can" is the attitude that accompanies that line of thinking. Meh.

I appreciate the M1 Carbine because it is the fundamental "the little engine that could". A spawn of battle whose birth provided the USGI over six million well-engineered tools that saved lives and has performed for more than 75 years and still works today as a modern "field hand" and a simple "light rifle" for home defense. No pretense, just function. It isn't a range toy but an elementary implement to be used day in and day out. It doesn't need to be built into anything special, it already is special. What could be better than that?

Sometimes life's simple pleasures are the best!

 

[ugaarguy]

Everyone and their Jack Russel Terrier has an AR-15. Are we anticipating full battle conditions? Probably not.

Then why choose an M1 carbine that's just as much a military battle rifle as an AR carbine?

I'm not a "range rat" that is out to show off the latest "chrome-plated kick-starter",

Yet, you're saving money for a $1300 M1 Carbine when you could order a fully functional Del-Ton Sport AR carbine for $500. How are the guys with cheap entry level AR carbines showing off?

nor do I need "bragging rights" because I have the latest optics or some other accessory.

How is using a moderately priced red dot sight that helps the shooter get on target faster in all light conditions showing off? How is mounting a low cost weapon light that lets you ID your target in low light and also silhouettes your iron sights allowing them to be used in low light showing off? You're so biased against modern rifles that you dismiss anything you don't like as showing off.

Many shooters by their carbine to discuss, more than shoot. That's not me.

Yet the nostalgia and collector value has driven the prices of M1 carbines out of reach of most shooters. It may not be you, you're being forced to save money for quite a long time just to be able to buy a functional repro.

If most carbines are well maintained, the .30 Carbine gives up very little to the 5.56 out to 200 yards. I look past the thin veneer of marketing and look to a fundamental "working rifle" not a ultra-modern "death ray". I'm not killing men at 400 yards. The ranges the average civilian is involved will be about 20 yards. More power? Why? it isn't needed. The of machismo of shooting someone five times with ultra high-velocity ammunition is a moot point in a home/personal defense situation. "Because I can" is the attitude that accompanies that line of thinking. Meh.

By that logic why do you even need an M1 carbine? Why are you saving for a $1200+ James River Rock-ola when you could buy a $300 Hi-Point carbine that will serve in that role?

I appreciate the M1 Carbine because it is the fundamental "the little engine that could". A spawn of battle whose birth provided the USGI over six million well-engineered tools that saved lives and has performed for more than 75 years and still works today as a modern "field hand" and a simple "light rifle" for home defense. No pretense, just function. It isn't a range toy but an elementary implement to be used day in and day out. It doesn't need to be built into anything special, it already is special. What could be better than that?

How is that any different than AR? The M-16 is the longest serving rifle in US military history. They've been kept around this long because they actually are pretty simple, and they work.

Further, you characterize AR owners as being pretentious. How is owning a rifle that cost the same as a Glock pistol pretentious when you're saving for a rifle that cost 2.5x as much? Who's the one being pretentious here?

Sometimes life's simple pleasures are the best!

If the M1 carbine was so simple it could be easily manufactured and sold at a much lower price. You're right about pleasure though: Your posts indicate that you value the nostalgic pleasure of the M1 carbine over the modern simplicity and functionality of an AR carbine.

 

[FL-NC]

The M1 carbine is just a fun little gun to shoot. Between the capacity, light weight of weapon and ammo, and power (between 38 special and 357) I think I would have rather use one of these than the tommy gun or M3 grease gun of the period. My father was a helicopter pilot in VN and he carried one in his bird. My uncle was a sheriff deputy in the 70s and he carried one in lieu of a shotgun. His carbine was the first military weapon I ever fired, when I was about 8 or 9. I have 2. In 2005 I saw some a police officer in Colombia carrying one at a checkpoint, in addition to his S&W model 10. Unfortunately, the price of the guns and the ammo has made them less obtainable than in years past. I remember I bought one in 1992 (send-back from S Korea) for $130 out the door. If someone could obtain reliable mags and a method to mount a light on one, it would be an ideal HD weapon IMO.

 

[Captain O]

Sorry, but no. If they were to begin manufacturing the M1 Carbine the was it was during the world's greatest war, they would cost $4000.00 each. It was subsidized by the US Government, as is the AR today. With the continuing development of the AR rifles, by said Government backin,. it will always be cheap and disposable! It is truly the bic of modern rifles.

I haven't seen many AR-15/M16 rifles built in 1965 (it's first issuance to army troops) remaining today. On the other hand, a large number of the 6+ million M1 Carbines from WW2 have survived 70+ years, and are still being reconstituted... they are that good.

 

[rondog]

Wow, I have to wonder about all the distances being thrown around here! I don't know what kind of homes you guys are defending, but any combat scenarios in MY house would be feet, not yards.

I have an AR15, three M1 carbines, and two HiPoint carbines. I guarantee that the AR would be the LAST rifle I'd grab for spook removal! It's definitely the longest, heaviest, most awkward and unwieldy of them all. I keep an M1 carbine by my headboard, not the AR. I'd put the HiPoint .40 carbine at 2nd in line, it's really light, short and handy, plus accurate, reliable and hard-hitting.

 

[ddc]

Anybody checked these guys out yet? https://www.inland-mfg.com/Inland-Carbines/M1-1945.html

 

[ugaarguy]

The US government isn't backing much AR production. FN has the majority of the government M16 business, and they just recently entered the civilian market. Yet Ruger and S&W can turn out functioning rifles for $600, and Del-Ton for $500, and many others in the same price range, all without government backing. How is that?

You say you haven't seen many 1960s era ARs? That's because you're not able to look in the right places. There are plenty of M16A1 lowers from the 60s and 70s still in USAF service that were upgraded to M16A2 rifles. You're also not going to see surplus M16s in civilian hands because they're full auto and can't bbe sold by the CMP. But there are plenty of surplus M16A1s in squad cars all over the country on loan to depts via the DRMO. There have also been quite a few batches of M16A1 parts sold on the civilian market, minus the full auto capable lower receiver internal bits, and the lowers receivers themselves which would have to be registered as machine guns. You can call an AR a bic, but you're dead wrong about their longevity.

 

[Llama Bob]

Wow, I have to wonder about all the distances being thrown around here! I don't know what kind of homes you guys are defending, but any combat scenarios in MY house would be feet, not yards.

Not everyone is solely concerned with defending the interior of their home. Many people have property where distances in the 100s of yards are very possible. In addition, many people own rifles not only to defend themselves against criminals in the home, but also against the possibility of invasion or homegrown tyranny. In any such situation, I very much hope the shooting is not going on inside my home.

I'm not the biggest defender of the AR15 (there's no good reason for that wimpy a round in a soft shooting auto) but it's got the M1 carbine whipped as a general purpose rifle. Better terminal ballistics, better range, better inherent accuracy.

 

[ugaarguy]

Wow, I have to wonder about all the distances being thrown around here! I don't know what kind of homes you guys are defending, but any combat scenarios in MY house would be feet, not yards.

The distances are being thrown around by Captain O to deflect from directly debating features.

I have an AR15, three M1 carbines, and two HiPoint carbines. I guarantee that the AR would be the LAST rifle I'd grab for spook removal! It's definitely the longest, heaviest, most awkward and unwieldy of them all. I keep an M1 carbine by my headboard, not the AR. I'd put the HiPoint .40 carbine at 2nd in line, it's really light, short and handy, plus accurate, reliable and hard-hitting.

Care to be a little more specific about what configuration of AR you have? A 16" pencil bbl AR carbine with A2 length flash hider and stock fully extended is 34.5" long (1.1" shorter than an M1 Carbine) and weighs only half a pound more. Mine has the stock almost fully collapsed because I have T Rex arms and I shoot more squared to the target.

That said, I'd still really like to have an M1 Carbine if they weren't so darn expensive. If they're reliable, the LSI Chiappa/Citadel M1 style 9mm carbines that take Beretta 92 mags would scratch that itch for me.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Apples and pomegranates.

An M1 carbine is, well, a carbine.

I understand that carbines - in broad strokes - are arrived at from two very different directions:

1: A shortened and lightened version of a proper "rifle" to increase portability and capitalize on the carrier's perceived diminished need for a full sized version.

2: Capitalize on handgun level ballistics from an optimum length barrel.

Sure, the .30 Carbine can be traced to the rimmed Winchester round but each mimics a relatively hot handgun round of its day.

If I'm going to compare an M1 Carbine to any thing, on the one hand it'd be a handgun like a .357 (admittedly, to augment 1911 .45s) or on the other end a .30 caliber service rifle.

The M1 Carbine admirably occupies the middle ground here.

As far as lethality or practicality - simple G.I. ball has taken several goodly sized deer by me and likely thousands by others. I should think that a G.I. carbine would make an excellent and effective defense firearm.

Thousands of; Japanese, German, North Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese widows would attest to that, were they able.

Todd

 

[agtman]

Man, my dedicated 5.56mm coyote-huntin' AR is really piling up the fur.
3 in 1 day; 6 since December. Only been able to get out four times, but man do these doggies make for some great hunting. No bag limit, year-'round takable.

Tootles.

 

[Captain O]

The distances are being thrown around by Captain O to deflect from directly debating features.


Care to be a little more specific about what configuration of AR you have? A 16" pencil bbl AR carbine with A2 length flash hider and stock fully extended is 34.5" long (1.1" shorter than an M1 Carbine) and weighs only half a pound more. Mine has the stock almost fully collapsed because I have T Rex arms and I shoot more squared to the target.

That said, I'd still really like to have an M1 Carbine if they weren't so darn expensive. If they're reliable, the LSI Chiappa/Citadel M1 style 9mm carbines that take Beretta 92 mags would scratch that itch for me.

Fair warning: Those Chiappa 9mm carbines have many FTF, and feeding problems. They are worse than most pistol caliber carbines.

I wouldn't want to see anyone waste their money on them.

 

[Captain O]

The distances are being thrown around by Captain O to deflect from directly debating features.


Care to be a little more specific about what configuration of AR you have? A 16" pencil bbl AR carbine with A2 length flash hider and stock fully extended is 34.5" long (1.1" shorter than an M1 Carbine) and weighs only half a pound more. Mine has the stock almost fully collapsed because I have T Rex arms and I shoot more squared to the target.

That said, I'd still really like to have an M1 Carbine if they weren't so darn expensive. If they're reliable, the LSI Chiappa/Citadel M1 style 9mm carbines that take Beretta 92 mags would scratch that itch for me.

I have no desire to shoot a .223 caliber projectile at 400 yards. If I want to shoot anything at those distances, I'll move up to a heavier rifle. "There isn't much in life that a man can't fix with $500.00 and a 30-'06".

You can keep your .223. I won't be needing it.

 

[Robert]

That does not mean that it does not fill a role for others. To say that because you have so use for something else not mean that thing does not have a use. Great, use what you like but do not throw tired, disproven generalities around and not expect to get challenged on it.

I loved shooting my dads little carbine he bought in the 60s. A great, handy, fun little rifle. But there is nothing it does that I can not do better with my AR. That does not mean the M1 is a bad weapon. For some it is perfect. And as for 30-06, well I guess, but my 375H&H will do everything the 30-06 will do and so much more.

 

[cfullgraf]

I feel the M1 Carbine would be a dandy home defense fire arm. But, I would not use a USGI model for that service, they are too collectable, Post war, civilian M1 Carbines leave something to be desired in the reliability department. Some are good, some not so much.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Auto Ordinance, the only way I could afford a paratrooper version, and my USGI Carbines. I bring them out on nice Sunday afternoons for plinking at soda cans, milk bottles and other targets of opportunity. Under these circumstances, I can put up with the operating idiosyncrasies of the various versions that I have.

Enter the 300 BLK for home defense. Ballistics a bit better than the Carbine. A firearm that is just as handy. A good, reliable shooter. The rainbow trajectory of 300 BLK minimizes down range collateral damage. And parts are readily available.

I have a 300 BLK for home defense on my farm.

Just my opinion.

Other folks' opinions are just as valid.

 

[Captain O]

That does not mean that it does not fill a role for others. To say that because you have so use for something else not mean that thing does not have a use. Great, use what you like but do not throw tired, disproven generalities around and not expect to get challenged on it.

I loved shooting my dads little carbine he bought in the 60s. A great, handy, fun little rifle. But there is nothing it does that I can not do better with my AR. That does not mean the M1 is a bad weapon. For some it is perfect. And as for 30-06, well I guess, but my 375H&H will do everything the 30-06 will do and so much more.

I'm sorry, but I must agree with John Cooper. He had no use for it either. Shoot it if you like, but I have other rifles that shoot at longer distances with a more effective projectile.

As far as the .375 H&H Magnum is concerned, I like my teeth and nervous system. It is pointless to subject them to excessive recoil without expectation of enhanced performance. The .30-'06 has been proven to kill anything on the North American Continent. Any caliber used on this beyond it appears to compensate for a lack of either hunting skills or marksmanship. If you are on the "Dark Continent" it is an entirely different circumstance.

By any chance are you hunting in either Africa or Asia?

 

[Oldschool shooter]

How many thousands of Germans and Japanese soldiers were killed with an M1 carbine? While the round is not a do-all cartridge, it makes a good defensive weapon in a light and easy to handle package. Sorry AR guys, while the M4 may be a fine weapon, it is not always the best choice.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I really like the M1 carbine, great to carry and fun to shoot. But if you just want a lightweight 100 yard gun, a 16 inch AR will do everything it can and more, except look as good.

 

[Art Eatman]

The .375 H&H folks don't seem to be all that concerned about perceived recoil. And, odds are, beyond a few shots for sight-in, their use is in the field where recoil is generally little noticed.

My father's bring-back Carbine shoots just fine. For the relatively near distances for self-defense at home? Probably as useful as any other long gun. So's my AR, though. And I gotta say that I've had no difficulty in maneuvering a 12-gauge around the house.

My fan-boy-itis has to do with my desired results, not the tool. I'm more concerned with skill and accuracy than a particular weapon or cartridge.

Funny: I was stationed at Inchon in 1955. Occupation duty. I was the only guy in the whole battalion who thought it was fun to "liberate" a 600-round can of Carbine ammo and go plinking on the beach with my M2. Rough on seagulls and seashells.