M1 Carbine vs. Everything Else

[Captain O]

Again, I'll ask you: Why then do you need even an M1 Carbine? Why are you saving $1300 for one when a $275 HiPoint 9mm carbine would fill every role you've described? Why is an AR in .223/5.56 overkill but a .30 Carbine not equally overkill?

if you can find a 9mm Luger cartridge that generates 1602 fps and 627 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards, I'll leap right on it. And before you mention the .357 S&W Magnum, I already have a Rossi 20" barreled lever action chambered for the Magnum.

But is is, after all, a lever action. not a self loading rifle.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The M1 carbine is a relic.

I have an old 6 digit Inland I mess around with that went to war. I've rebuilt it to service grade condition. I even reload for the cartridge and have worked up an accurate load. I like making old things work. It works very well at 100 yards with the iron sights it was designed with. I honestly don't think it was designed as a 200 yard weapon. 4 moa at 200 yards is anywhere in a pie plate. Not my idea of medium range weapon, defensive or otherwise. The M1 carbine is a close range weapon. Anyone that's ever shot one would know that.

I am truly not an AR guy. I've shot them enough to know what all the popularity is about. It's a fine medium range weapon that is deadly accurate to 300 yards. If I were searching for a rifle for SD that would be one of them.

M1 carbines are a kick to shoot. I have a relative who is writing a WW2 novel. He had never shot one but knew a lot of the history. He found out I had one and ask if he could shoot it. We went to the range and he ripped up several 50 yard targets. I think that guy had more fun than should be legal. You would have thought he just won the lottery.

Seriously though, for SD get an AR or a mini 14 if you feel a need for an honest-to-god rifle. I don't. My SD is a 1911 and a dozen mags. YMMV.

 

[ugaarguy]

if you can find a 9mm Luger cartridge that generates 1602 fps and 627 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards, I'll leap right on it.

You said yourself that 25 yards is a realistic maximum self defense distance? So why do you need that much energy at 100 yards? By your own standards .30 Carbine is overkill. So, again why do you need it instead of a 9mm carbine? At least with my AR I get light bullets going fast that will start coming apart when they hit drywall. Your 110 grain .30 Carbine bullets behave much more like pistol bullets that penetrate more than .223 soft points after hitting drywall. Please, tell me why .30 carbine is a better choice than 9mm out of a carbine given the parameters you've set forth in this thread.

 

[Captain O]

You can bash my decision all you like and get away with it. (you're a moderator and have the power). I don't like the .223 and all you are trying to do is bait me. I have gone to brassfetchers.com to draw my conclusions. If you want to shoot it, great. Don't force feed your opinions on everyone else. You have the privilege of "bashing".

If you want to shoot a pistol caliber and take your chances with it not performing, be my guest. I don't care. The High Point must interest you. I won't trust my life to it, perhaps you will. I won't tell you what I think of the Hi-Point.

I will choose what I wish. You can't "buffalo" me into accepting your preference. I prefer a slower 110 grain Soft Point .308 that tops out at 2000 fps, rather than a 55 grain .223 FMJ that leaves an 18" barrel at 2983 fps. you gain overpenetration from both. The .30 Carbine penetrates less. It's .308 110 grain Soft Point slug penetrates and average of 18" to 24" in denim covered gelatin You'll get about 24"-34" of penetration and get 225 more foot pounds of energy . This means they will both work well within the house. Your .223 is more than anyone will ever need within a dwelling.

If you're in the Army or the Police Department and the Government is indemnifying your actions, you're golden. If you feel the need to shoot someone at 300+ yards, have at it. I'm not wearing either a uniform, or a badge. I don't need that kind of range. Most of the small game I'll be shooting will be at much closer ranges. 600-627 pounds of energy at 100 yards is more than ample.

If you feel that the "more power" attribute of the .223 will serve you, fine. I, for one, don't have the syndrome, or need the potential liability. Go with God.

You're an AR fanboy and that's okay. It doesn't change my mind in the least. Perhaps Santa will bring you a Hi-Point for the holidays.

 

[jmr40]

The 30 Carbine rifle and round were a failure in WW-2. The rifles were popular because they were light and had little recoil but they simply didn't get the job done. Especially in Europe where heavier winter uniforms were worn. It performed a little better in the Pacific.

They are an interesting slice of history that can still be adequate for your stated uses. But anyway you look at it there are better options today.

 

[MrBorland]

You can bash my decision all you like and get away with it. (you're a moderator and have the power)...You have the privilege of "bashing".

Just as an FYI, mods are held to the same standard as everyone else; yet he's attacking your argument, not your person. Quite unlike your calling him a fanboy, which is an ad hominem attack, and against our rules.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The main gripe I have with the M1 is accuracy. I had one that was about 5 moa. I got rid of that one. The one I have now is about 2 moa. It has a lightly used Winchester barrel which was an arsenal rebuild on an Inland receiver.

The new Inland as documented by an American Rifleman review is a 2 moa rifle. That one should sell if they will provide good service and stand behind their product.

As far as I know the CMP rules disqualify them from their matches. I've read that it really depends on the event. There seems to be a class for commercial rifles now but don't quote me on that. I got a US carbine just to make sure I could shoot in any event.

The M1 carbine is what it is. I think too many people try to make it something it isn't, a modern rifle.

 

[Skribs]

I've never found picking fights with moderators on forums to end well.

I will choose what I wish. You can't "buffalo" me into accepting your preference. I prefer a slower 110 grain Soft Point .308 that tops out at 2000 fps, rather than a 55 grain .223 FMJ that leaves an 18" barrel at 2983 fps. you gain overpenetration from both. The .30 Carbine penetrates less. It's .308 110 grain Soft Point slug penetrates and average of 18" to 24" in denim covered gelatin You'll get about 24"-34" of penetration and get 225 more foot pounds of energy . This means they will both work well within the house. Your .223 is more than anyone will ever need within a dwelling.

Slower, heavier bullets tend to penetrate more in soft tissue than lighter, faster bullets. The faster bullets just don't have the mass to penetrate far. Throw in barriers like you might find in a wall, and while they will both go through the barrier, the loss of velocity on a .223 after going through a barrier will have a greater detriment to its terminal ballistics than on a .30 carbine.

You're also looking at FMJ .223 ammo. Why are you comparing FMJ ammo in .223, probably the worst for self defense (aside from ones that underpenetrate), to a soft point .308? Why not look at rounds designed to fragment or expand on impact? You'll get far less penetration than what you see in .30 carbine, and a permanent wound channel much wider than the bullet itself. These are the bullets designed for self defense.

Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with .30 carbine for home defense. I think it'll do the job beautifully. But if you're going to pick bad loads from the .223 to compare it to, then you're missing some information when you make a selection.

I would say the .223 is far from "more than anyone will ever need within a dwelling." I'd say a .308 is approaching that, but still not there.

Oh, and I'm not a mod, so you have to find a new reason why someone is not in 100% agreement with you.

 

[ugaarguy]

If you want to shoot a pistol caliber and take your chances with it not performing, be my guest. I don't care. The High Point must interest you. I won't trust my life to it, perhaps you will. I won't tell you what I think of the Hi-Point.

Based on the reports here from members who own them the Hi Point carbines are very reliable. Based on the research you've done you've stated that the $1200+ James River M1 Carbines are the minimum for reliability. Then you've whined and played the "poor me" card about how it's going to be sometime next year before you can afford one. I'm just trying to help you find an affordable firearm that will fit within your current budget.

I prefer a slower 110 grain Soft Point .308 that tops out at 2000 fps, rather than a 55 grain .223 FMJ that leaves an 18" barrel at 2983 fps. you gain overpenetration from both. The .30 Carbine penetrates less. It's .308 110 grain Soft Point slug penetrates and average of 18" to 24" in denim covered gelatin You'll get about 24"-34" of penetration and get 225 more foot pounds of energy . This means they will both work well within the house. Your .223 is more than anyone will ever need within a dwelling.

There you go again comparing apples to oranges. You're comparing .30 Carbine JSP to .223 FMJ. You also ignored that I specifically noted .223 soft point's reduced penetration AFTER passing through a soft BARRIER like drywall. You keep insisting that .223 has too much penetration in a typically constructed home, but you ignore the numerous tests showing that conventional construction (not bonded core) .223 JSP, after passing through drywall, has less penetration than common pistol JHPs, less than buckshot, and less than almost any other rifle round.

If you're in the Army or the Police Department and the Government is indemnifying your actions, you're golden. If you feel the need to shoot someone at 300+ yards, have at it. I'm not wearing either a uniform, or a badge. I don't need that kind of range. Most of the small game I'll be shooting will be at much closer ranges. 600-627 pounds of energy at 100 yards is more than ample.

Again, you keep falsely asserting and assuming that anyone who uses a .223 is going to be shooting people at 300 yards. I, and most others, have chosen .223/5.56 rifles loaded with JSP ammo because they have the lowest risk of over penetration of any viable defensive loading within a dwelling. Then, you assert that it's okay for you to have a .30 carbine because you want the capability to hunt small game at 100 yards in addition to close range self defense. Quit with the double standard.

 

[amd6547]

The first longarm I owned was a Plainfield M1 carbine. It shot beautifully. Accurate, and reliable. However I succumbed to the desire for a Mini 14, and traded my carbine for a stainless Mini.
I regretted it as soon as I shot it. It was less accurate at 50yds than the carbine was at 100. It also felt like brick by comparison.

For a few years, I got on a 9mm carbine kick. I owned several...Marlin, hipoint, and an Uzi.
The hipoint 9mm carbine was fantastic. I put a few thousand round through it of every variety...white box, +P, +P+...it all fed, functioned, some were very accurate. With one particular +P+ Federal load, I was getting one hole two inch groups at 50yds, and with any load, it would keep all rounds on a paper plate at 100yds shooting rapidly offhand.
The only drawback was the limited capacity. If the hipoint were redesigned to use Glock 17 mags, it would be a world beater.
The Uzi was the best of the bunch.
However, when CMP announced a large sale of carbines a few years ago, I immediately got my cmp qualifications straight, sold my Uzi, and drove to North store to pick mine out.
I ended up with a 6-digit Inland in a Rockola I-cut stock with a new looking Underwood barrel.
Now, I don't dislike the AR. I've owned several over the years, and currently own an AR carbine I put together myself. I enjoy shooting it, and would have no issue using it for HD. I think every honest American should own one and be proficient in its use.
I just prefer the carbine for HD use.
For me, the carbine just fits me great. It points like finger for me, like a fine sporting rifle. I've experienced this with a few rifles, the closest being a Winchester 30-30 94.
I load it with Critical Defense FTX JHP, which I've shot out to 100yds and found to be accurate. I wouldn't have a problem using PPU soft points though...they shoot well, and are cheaper.
The 5.56 is a great round, and the AR is a proven weapon, easily affordable these days, and easy to build and work on.
But the carbine speaks to me. I knew a Cleveland cop who used one in Korea at the frozen Chosin as a navy corpsman with the Marines, and later used one as a cop responding to the race riots of the 1960's (which he described as "total war"). He had his choice of the Winchester 94, shotgun, Remington semiauto 308, or the carbine.
He kept one in his house the rest of his life.
The 30carbine round fits into a nice envelope of power. Better than a handgun, not quite a rifle, and performs very well in that range.
If the stars hadn't aligned just right when I got my GI carbine, I wouldn't own one now...and I have no interest in any non-GI carbine. But I do, and I'm glad I do.
Otherwise, I'd be perfectly happy with an AR.

 

[Old Guy]

Old Guy, Why would you being a permanent resident alien (Green Card holder) keep you from legally possessing firearms?

Unless Florida has some weird law this is perfectly legal.

Just the rules of the Government Sales. CMP States, Citizen.

Long guns stay in safe, G19 sits on belt, as now, and bedside table at night. With the TruGlo fiber optic sights, in poor light, a stationary human at 25 yds. is toast.

 

[SwampWolf]

QUOTE: "...The person that said the 5.56 x 45 is the .30 Carbine of the 21st century is incorrect. The 5.56 x 45 has greater muzzle blast, higher velocity, more recoil. This is not conjecture, but fact..."

While the 5.56 generates more velocity than the .30 Carbine, it certainly doesn't deliver "more recoil". The "Rifle Recoil Table" (calculated from the formula given in the Lyman Reloading Handbook, 43rd Edition and the recoil nomograph in the Handloader's Digest, 8th Edition) indicates that the 5.56 cartridge with a 62 grain bullet, fired from a rifle weighing seven pounds, produces 3.9 fp of recoil energy; while a .30 Carbine cartridge with a 110 grain bullet, fired from a rifle weighing the same seven pounds, produces 3.5 fp of recoil energy. I'm sure that my shoulder could never discern the .4 fp difference between the two cartridges. Not conjecture but fact.

 

[Captain O]

"My shoulder could not discern the difference." That sounds like a subjective statement. .4 foot pounds is a fact.

I am satisfied with lighter carbine (standard build weight) than the M4. I'm not interested with the "flavor of the month" attitude associated with the 5.56.

Enjoy

 

[Panzerschwein]

Captain O, if you are a fan of the .30 caliber rifles might I suggest a PTR-91 loaded with Hornady .308 110 grain TAP Urban defense rounds. This is the setup I use as my primary defensive rifle:



http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/308-win-tap/110-gr-tap-urban

A very excellent gun, and not an AR. It is effective from CQB distances all the way out to 800 meters.

 

[CoalTrain49]

"My shoulder could not discern the difference." That sounds like a subjective statement. .4 foot pounds is a fact.

I am satisfied with lighter carbine (standard build weight) than the M4. I'm not interested with the "flavor of the month" attitude associated with the 5.56.

I shot an AR last week. Compared to my M1 the recoil was slightly more but not really enough to get excited about. Actually my Ruger 77/357, M1 and my neighbors AR that I shot all have about the same recoil. I would let my 16 year old granddaughter shoot any one of them without any great concern. All of them are very manageable by any standard.

The title of your post was VS everything else. 5.56 would fall in that everything else category. So you are, or you're not interested. Maybe you just posted that up just to be contentious which seems to run through everyone of your posts.

 

[Captain O]

Captain O, if you are a fan of the .30 caliber rifles might I suggest a PTR-91 loaded with Hornady .308 110 grain TAP Urban defense rounds. This is the setup I use as my primary defensive rifle:



http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/308-win-tap/110-gr-tap-urban

A very excellent gun, and not an AR. It is effective from CQB distances all the way out to 800 meters.

That, I like. I realize that the .308 is a ".30-'06 light", but would be sufficient for 97% of my applications. No question of it's efficiency/efficacy.

After my .30 Carbine, I'll have to look into one of those.

 

[md7]

OP,

I remember a thread a while back that I believe you started. Something to the effect of "who's tired of the M4" or something of that sort. Then, we have this thread which pits the M1 against everything else, but seems less of everything else and more of M1 vs AR.

Admittedly, I prefer the AR. However, I'm content to enjoy my AR without disdain for another design. I'm also content to let others make their own choices, and hope they are pleased with their decision regardless of what they settle upon. It would seem that your appreciation for the M1 is only matched, or perhaps surpassed, by your dislike of the AR.

I'd also put forth for consideration that the AR is not a flavor of the week. Conceptualized in the 1950's, placed into service in the 1960's, it has evolved since, and remains in service today as the M4, M4A1, and M16 A4. It's also enjoyed tremendous acceptance in the civilian world, especially since the setting of the AWB, and has been one of the most popular selling rifles since that time. Probably due to availability and familiarity. I wouldn't call that flavor of the week, nor the attitudes attached.

 

[mavracer]

Where is it written that everyone has to love/accept the AR?

You don't have to love it, but you do need to accept that many others do and you would do well to accept and respect it's capabilities. That way your dislike dislike doesn't come across as blind hatred and make many of us think O stands for Oblivion

 

[CoalTrain49]

Well, I don't have one, never did. I likely won't be buying one anytime soon either. For one thing I'm not a fan of 5.56. There are probably 5 other rifle cartridges I would rather shoot than 5.56.

But here's the thing, the military made them popular just like the M1. There wasn't even a 30 carbine cartridge before 1941 and there certainly wasn't anything like an M1 carbine. Fast forward to 1994 and the M4. Just another hugely successful military carbine like the M1. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but there's a lot to like there. If the military hadn't developed the M4 we wouldn't have an inexpensive modern carbine now.

Personally, I'm glad the military did the R&D to develop the AR. Lots of people like them and we have a pretty good inexpensive rifle with lots of accessories. The M1 and the AR came from the same place, the military.

 

[Captain O]

Well, I don't have one, never did. I likely won't be buying one anytime soon either. For one thing I'm not a fan of 5.56. There are probably 5 other rifle cartridges I would rather shoot than 5.56.

But here's the thing, the military made them popular just like the M1. There wasn't even a 30 carbine cartridge before 1941 and there certainly wasn't anything like an M1 carbine. Fast forward to 1994 and the M4. Just another hugely successful military carbine like the M1. It may not be everyone's cup of tea but there's a lot to like there. If the military hadn't developed the M4 we wouldn't have an inexpensive modern carbine now.

Personally, I'm glad the military did the R&D to develop the AR. Lots of people like them and we have a pretty good inexpensive rifle with lots of accessories. The M1 and the AR came from the same place, the military.

All of these are true, and I do not begrudge the public of a choice. The AR is just fine... for those who like it and want it. It is a capable cartridge, and better than the M1 Carbine in many applications. These are marvelous aspects of a military and ranch round.

People need to accept the fact that not everyone likes, or wants the 5.56. The .30 Caliber "short rifle" is not as popular as the 5.56, but even the great John "Jeff" Cooper didn't care for it.

It's like anything else, a matter of personal preference, application and taste.

Thank you

 

[mavracer]

You do realize that ARs are also available in other calibers and there's absolutely nothing a 30 Carbine can do that a 300 Blackout or 7.62X45 Wilson Combat won't.

 

[Captain O]

You can change calibers on an AR...but it's still an AR! I don't want one. I don't like the way they fit, feel or shoulder. it is still an AR. Why do you insist or ramming it down my throat? I don't need to be reprogrammed so that I will worship at the feet of Eugene Stoner.

Thank you.

 

[Captain O]

I was 10 years old when the M16 was issued to soldiers in Vietnam. That was 1965. I have watched the rifle change over the past half century. Eight years later, I began serving in the Navy; we were still fighting the Vietnam War. while the average soldier/sailor/airman was using the M16, others were using "cutdown" M2 Carbines (to flush out "tunnel rats"). Others were still using M14 rifles and Remington 870 slide action shotguns.

None of this means that I had to like what my brothers-in-arms were being issued. They used what they had. That's the military way. This is the Civilian world. We have choices.

No one seems able to grasp that the AR/M4 isn't the "one size fits all" rifle everyone needs or wants. Life just doesn't work that way. What works for me may not work for you. I can readily accept that.

Why can't you accept the fact that not everyone gets excited over the AR/M4 format?

 

[Quentin]

Ah, now I know your problem Captain O! You're a little younger so you didn't have to lug around the M14 in Vietnam. I can say I was very excited to trade it in for the M16A1, it sure made 1968 easier for me in Nam! Both are excellent rifles but I know which I'd rather carry. Of course the M1 Carbine also is light but wasn't issued to most of us GIs in Vietnam.

I'm glad you like the M1 Carbine, I do too. I bet if you gave the AR a chance you'd appreciate it as well.

 

[md7]

I don't want one

Understood. There are lots of non AR options out there for those that don't like em. Pick one that suits you, and move forward pleased with your selection. Honestly hope that you are well served by your choice without feeling the need to berate the choice of others that differ from yours.

Why do you insist or ramming it down my throat?

You said the AR was fine in your prior post. It seemed that your issue was with the 5.56 caliber. I think mavracer was addressing that.

worship at the feet of Eugene Stoner

Obviously we should all be worshipping at the altar of m1?

Look, I don't care that you don't like the AR or that you do like the m1. It just seems that you spend a lot of time and energy railing against what you dislike rather than learning and talking about that which you do like.

Personally, I can't stand coconut. So...... I don't spend much time discussing it, convincing others to hate it, or eating it. Just saying.