M1 Carbine vs. Everything Else

[Captain O]

No bitterness here. I feel that I am the subject of a "dogpile" and I'm not in favor of doing that to anyone.

I have stated before and I'll state it again. I am not thrilled with the AR platform.

By the way, I was a Jet Mechanic at USNAS Whidbey Island, WA. All my other brothers were on the USS Enterprise. (No Star Trek Jokes, please).

 

[strambo]

I used to have stronger opinions about guns and would argue them on gun boards...

Then I found myself in a combat zone for the first time issued 2 weapons I wouldn't have picked and had to trust my life to them. I didn't even get to test fire or zero them before going "outside the wire." The weapons were an AK-47 and Sig P226. The place was Baghdad circa 2005 and I was a contractor. I figured I was being paid to take the higher risks so I did.

Anyway, I really learned the AK and analyzed its strengths and weaknesses, overcame the crappy ergos with training and practice, overcame the crappy sights by mounting a RDS on an Ultimak rail.

As for the Sig, I thought I hated DA/SA guns, 2 different trigger pulls and all that. Well, my mentors taught me to shoot it well and I fired and dry-fired the snot out of it! When I got home I bought one and it is my main carry gun to this day. I can run it as fast and accurate as anything including hanging with the best shooters at the classes I've attended, even if they're running 1911s.

Now, I only have mild firearm preferences and no strong opinions. I look at them as tools and analyze any given weapon's strong point and weak points, looking to maximize the former and minimize the latter through training and hardware.

As for the M1 carbine, I have a GI M1 and love it! For HD, set up with an Ultimak rail, micro RDS and light (and good 110g SP ammo), in practical terms it wouldn't give up much to an AR in a typical HD scenario.

That said, I can't fathom how any truly objective analysis of an M1 vs. an AR would put the M1 on top Name the category; size, capacity, ergos, cost, terminal performance, ease of modification, penetration in walls and even weight, the AR can beat it. That is why an AR-15 SBR with RDS, light and sling is locked under my bed and not the M1 carbine. I'd happily bet my life on the M1 carbine...but I have something just a little bit better all-around (a lot better if the M1 is in stock configuration).

The M1 is a great handling little rifle though, and set up right, absolutely an outstanding HD arm. I don't need to build up any straw-men to tear down so I can argue 1 vs. the other.

 

[Captain O]

Ah, now I know your problem Captain O! You're a little younger so you didn't have to lug around the M14 in Vietnam. I can say I was very excited to trade it in for the M16A1, it sure made 1968 easier for me in Nam! Both are excellent rifles but I know which I'd rather carry. Of course the M1 Carbine also is light but wasn't issued to most of us GIs in Vietnam.

I'm glad you like the M1 Carbine, I do too. I bet if you gave the AR a chance you'd appreciate it as well.

I know how hard it was to hump the M14 through the rice paddies, and can understand how much lighter the M16 was. The drawback was it's lack of penetration in the Southeast Asian flora. The 55 grain bullets of the period had it's drawbacks.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I know how hard it was to hump the M14 through the rice paddies, and can understand how much lighter the M16 was. The drawback was it's lack of penetration in the Southeast Asian flora. The 55 grain bullets of the period had it's drawbacks.

+1

The light bullets couldn't cut through the foliage in the jungle, and were easily deflected by light brush. The bigger 7.62x51mm didn't have as much of a problem.

 

[Dr.Rob]

You have to really strip down an AR (like XM-177 size) to get down to the weight of the M1 carbine.

And the trend these days is to pile accessories ONTO their M-4 style carbine.

Use what works for you and practice with it.

 

[Captain O]

When it comes to my "house Carbine" I tend toward minimalism. All I want is the later 1945 sights associated with the M1 Carbine. In my current setting, I can defend my housing at ranges up to 50 yards at the absolute most. (I live on the second floor). If someone comes up the stairs they'll take several double taps. "Canceling someone's ticket" won't be difficult.

While a shotgun would work, a lighter-recoiling carbine assures me of well-placed shots, regardless of caliber.

It certainly beats a handgun.

 

[35 Whelen]

A few years ago, I read To Hell and Back which is Audie Murphy's memoirs. For those of you who don't know, Murphy was the most decorated American solider in WW2 and is credited with killing 240-something German and Italian soldiers. Anyhow, in the book he explicitly states his preference for the M1 carbine over the M1 Garand. I don't remember why he preferred it, but he definitely did and evidently he had the experience to back his choice.

I'll begin by saying I have an AR in the safe, a half-dozen stripped lowers, and four or five kits. I don't own an M1 Carbine. Although I shoot almost daily here at the house, I don't remember the last time the AR was even out of the safe. I keep thinking I'll assemble the kits, but I just can't get interested. I guess to me, AR's everywhere are like everyone wearing the same clothes and driving the same kind of automobile. I don't mind folks loving the AR, but it's to the point that threads go something like this:

Post: "So, I booked a hunt for the Big Five in Africa...."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"

Post: "I'll be moving to Kodiak Island and was wondering what rifle..."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"

Post: "I'm going elk hunting and will be taking cross canyon shots..."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"

Post: "I'm having a problem with mice under the kitchen sink..."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"

Post: "I'm going to go dove hunting next week and wanted opinions on...."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"

Post: "My wife and I are expecting our first child, a girl, and I was wanting suggestions...."
Response: "Buy an AR!!"


IMHO, the .223 or 5.56x45 and the AR platform has been pressed into WAY too many roles. (See signature below) Folks buy a rifle propelling a bullet close to 3000 fps, then try to figure out how to keep it from going through walls, yet want the same rifle to be capable of driving a bullet through the door or windshield of a car, or a wall, and take out a perpetrator. Then they want to the same rifle to drive a bullet into a prairie dog, coyote, deer, a hog and kill them effectively. And last, the same rifle needs to provide accuracy out to 600 yds. for High Power competition. All these tasks require different bullets, different twists, etc. So what is a man to do? Carry 5 or 6 different magazines with as many different types of ammunition? Those little bullets simply aren't up to performing all those tasks perfectly. No matter what you do to them, they're still itty-bitty .22 caliber bullets. I have a 600 yd. range on my property that I laid out so the local 4-H kids could practice before their annual trips to Camp Perry. So I've seen first hand some incredible accuracy at that range with AR's. But again the bullet, when it hits the target is still an itty-bitty .22 caliber projectile that's ideal for poking a hole in a piece of paper at that range. FWIW, the piece of 5/16" diamond plate hanging on my 600 yd. target stand easily stops the .22 caliber, 75 gr. bullets, but the bullets out of my ancient Swiss K-31 normally poke holes in it.

I don't much care for rifles with pistol grips. I shot a few High Power matches with my AR and just couldn't warm up to it. Went back to the K-31. I think we can all have our preferences without getting defensive or feeling the need to either convince someone their choice is wrong or that your choice is better than theirs.

35W

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm glad you like the M1 Carbine, I do too. I bet if you gave the AR a chance you'd appreciate it as well.

I shot one for the first time about 2 weeks ago, S&W Sport I think. It had a red dot sight of some type on it. My impressions were;

It was very easy to shoot accurately.

It had very light recoil.

Trigger was usable.

Had an adjustable stock. I really liked that being an old trap shooter.

Had a place to hang a light or a laser. I don't have either on any of my guns but still an option.

Had two good usable sights on it. I'm used to military sights so there really wouldn't be a need to put anything else on it but it would accept anything you wanted.

Price. Under $600 now. That's a show stopper right there.

I could warm up to one of these carbines pretty easily. If I lived on a ranch or a farm I would have to strongly consider one for a "ranch" rifle. I could modify it to do what I needed it to do. I know someone who has a farm in the wheat country of eastern WA. That was his choice for a truck gun. He has lots of rifles. He's an operator but not in the military sense of the word. He operates farm machinery.

I'm a big believer in the right tool for the job. I just couldn't see beating up my 42 carbine in the cab of a truck in that situation. I know some people did that back when you could buy one for $100.

 

[Art Eatman]

Five pages of repetition doesn't seem to be bringing out any new information or indications of anybody learning anything new and informative. Enough for now.