M4 or M243?

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lbmii

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M4? or M243? graphic footage.

The below link is graphic footage of an Iraqi ready to fire an RPG when he is hit by two quick bursts from an American automatic weapon. The weapon seems to be of 5.56 caliber. I suspect the American fire originates from a red dot scoped M4 carbine. However, it could be from a M243 SAW. Whoever is the American gunman, he is no amateur; the two short bursts are exceptionally well controlled and accurate.

If anyone has any insight please post. Please do not post any inappropriate dialog.

The below link will take 30+ minutes with a regular modem. After the video starts right click and select full screen.

http://w3.kill-9.com/rpg-man.mpg
 
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I would suspect it is some sort of MG, most likely something more substantial than .223. I'd suspect it was a coaxial M240. Note the obvious tracers. Also notice the reaction of the target animal to the bullet strikes. You just don't get beat up that much from a 5.56. Deer that are around that size react similarly to single shots with a .243 or .308.
 
BTW, that was a blast. What Charles Darwin challenger walks into the middle of a street with no visible cover and attempts to take on highly-trained individuals with machineguns. I suspect this guy was NOT on our side... hopefully that is.
 
BadgerArms, just a point to consider... If you fire near the sides of the road in an urban setting, the backblast from an RPG will really mess your day up. Something to consider.

Most of the time, believe it or not, the center of the road is better than hugging along a wall.
 
Yes I now see the tracers. Originally I thought that was from sparks coming off the street from ricochets. That narrows it down to either a M243 in 5.56 or a M240 in 7.62. I am still thinking it's a 5.56. The headshot brought the quick end.

Disciplined fire. Note that no others in the crowd were engaged.

The rules of engagement are very strict. The tactics are heavily dependent on lawyers. I think that in attempting to make friends we are asking too much from our troops and placing them at needless risk. These folks are taking shots at US troops at will. If the response seen in this video was a quarter of a second slower that RPG would have killed how many US troops?

How would we have faired against the Japanese Shinto in the island campaigns if the Marines had to wait for the Japanese to first take aim at them before they could shoot back? Are they US solders in war or are they Highway patrol men quelling some local dispute? We beat the Japanese because we fought them and fought them till they were done. Win first then maybe be friends latter on.
 
I didn't download from the link. I am assuming that this is the same footage that made the rounds a couple days ago ?

What makes you think that it has to be one person firing one gun ? I actually had never considered that. I automatically assumed it was more than one guy firing at him.
What makes you think that it HAS to be a machinegun since there are tracers present ?
Why does "The weapon seems to be of 5.56 caliber."
"You just don't get beat up that much from a 5.56." The guy is in basically a kneeling postion. He gets shot COM and sits down on his butt and remains sitting on his butt until he is shot in the head and again in the chest almost at once at which point his upper torso follows the course of gravity and he falls on his back. To me, that isn't "getting beat up".
 
Ammo for magazine feed weapons is supplied by 10 round stripper clips that do not generally include tracer ammo. Belt feed ammo has one tracer bullet for every four regular bullets.

It could be multiple sources of fire. The fire seems to come from two short bursts. The sound for each burst seems the same so the caliber seems to be the same. The two bursts seem to not overlap. I suspect the source is 5.56 based on sound and impact. I suspect the source is a M243 SAW over a M4 due to the tracer fire and the common use of the M243 SAW on vehicle mounts. You can hear the vehicle speed away.

The important thing is the guy did not launch his RPG. The really bad thing is the guy felt comfortable enough with the situation to get out into the middle of a street to take a shot and his colleagues did not feel compelled to stop him. No one said to the guy, “Hey stop what are you doing you’re going to get us all killed!â€
 
It's not an M243 SAW, it's an M249 SAW. And yes that looked like an M249, since every 5th round was tracer, and most riflemen don't load tracers in their M16's/M4's, since they work both ways.

You fire in short bursts on the SAW to control it better as well, which would explain the burst effect.

That's just my SWAG, it might have been an M240G on a vehicle, but those just sound "meaner" than the one in the video.
 
Doing a frame-by-frame analysis, the first tracer round strikes Abdul in the belly, almost perfectly center of mass in his position. It deflects by about 5 degrees apparently and strikes the ground behind him. As Abdul sits back up and asks for more, you can clearly see a frame that traces the exact path to the shooter. The bullet strikes apparently right through the heart (center of the torso) and deflects by a good 10 to 15 degrees on exiting. The Tracers sure did not seem to fragment. Funny, some idiot is screaming after the shot as if this was some tragedy. I can't imagine how stopping somebody from commiting murder is a tragedy. Heck, looks like guerilla warfare to me.
 
Farnham-

The M240 comes in the following versions:

M240B-standard infantry version used by the US Army
M240C-coaxial or 'coax' version used on the M2/M3 IFV and M1 tank
M240D-helicopter pintle mount version
M240E1-pintle mount version used on the loaders hatch on the M1 tank
M240G-infantry version used by the USMC, differs from the M240B in the absence of front handguards

I agree with you, it sounds like an M249 SAW. Sound isn't 'heavy' enough for an M240.
 
I knew there was a difference between the Golf and the others, only one I've ever actually seen was the Golf, thanks for the info!
 
Very Interesting...

One of my drill sergeants, who speaks Spanish, watched the video. Two notes:

1-the TV crew is from Spain. He says you can tell by the way they pronounce certain things. Not that it matters, but it's not Univision or TV Mexico or whatever.

2-to paraphrase his translation, the reporter is apparently saying that the shooting was done by the "militia," and that this is fairly common. No mention of US troops.

Very interesting.
 
I first saw this footage a few days ago. When I saw it I immediately believed it was a SAW. The rate of fire and tracers are indicative. As his arm is not partially severed and the back of his head stays attached I can not believe it was a 240B or any other medium machinegun. If it was "militia" fire that killed him, I would think it was an RPK.

In response to -
"The really bad thing is the guy felt comfortable enough with the situation to get out into the middle of a street to take a shot and his colleagues did not feel compelled to stop him. No one said to the guy, “Hey stop what are you doing you’re going to get us all killed!â€
The enemy in Iraq is generally (GENERALLY) not noted for his tactical skills. A good example of this would be trying to fire an RPG while squatting smack dab in the middle of the street. I would say his and his comrades actions are indicative of stupidity as opposed to "comfort."

Thanks to whoever posted the link to this footage - it's amazing.
 
The PKM fires the 7.62X54R round of the old Mosin-Nagant. It doesn't rattle, it THUMPS (sounds like an M60 or M240, if not a BAR).


If it was militia, probably an RPK. If it was our guys, likely the 249. (I didn't download it, my modem's only running at 28.8 at the moment). The 249 just sort of rattles, very low recoil, reasonably good accuracy, and yes, they come with tracers.
 
Sort of makes one rethink the horror stories about 5.56 failures dosen't it?
Click to expand...

Well, the 5.56 round has had a number(think about it) of kills so one video of it taking down a person doesnt make a difference one way or another.
 
M249 has a faster rate of fire. I'm pretty sure that's what it is, even though I can't get audio on this (school) computer.

John
 
Just my opinion guys, I wasn't there so I could be wrong. It sounded like a 240G. 240Gs are set to a higher rate of fire typically than the 240B and the vehicle engine in the background sounded like a bradley or tracked vehicle of some sort. Again I could be wrong, just my 2 cents
 
Does any one know what our RPG friend's support group was yelling in what I assume is Arabic just before things did not quite go as originally thought out?
 
You know, I have often wondered why we see all of this footage of masked RPG wielding men stand out in the open and launch a missle and then duck back behind cover. Not once I have I seen one of them get shot. Not only that, I have never seen their rockets hit anything or even the target they are shooting at. I get the feeling that the footage is of people shooting their rockets and guns at troops about two miles away otherwise we would see more footage like this. I have no clue what gun it was, but it worked.
 
I have the answers

There is no way Iraqi Militia made those shots. The aim was to well controlled as well as the short controlled bursts. That is US military training. Hodgies, regardless of whom they were trained by, spray and pray. These were well placed shots.

The round were .223 (5.56) NATO. This size tracer does look like a spark because of how small it is. I have a ton of experience with tarcers of all sizes. These were .223 Nato Tracer rounds. The orange phospurous gives that away. Also, if you notice. The round kinda zip through the guy. The very first one just grabs his attention and though it is a lethal shot, would have taken some time to kill him. He was in now way "beaten up" by the blast. They seemed to have zipped right through him. And in super slow motion you can see the angles that the tracers take after entering the and exiting the body. They have a good 45 degree pitch. A much heavier .308 round would hve blasted straight through or the tradjectory would have been augmented much less.

Finally, this is a SAW that is being used. The tracers are spaced every three. The report of the round are perfectly timed apart and there is no overlapping. The sort burts are exactly what soldiers are trained to do with this weapon when locked in on a target. The only time they use sustained rapid fire is when the are offering suppressive fire so their comrades can advance/retreat etc.

One more thing. The reason the 5.56 has such a bad wrap is that one bullet usually does not kill the target. You saw in this footage that if they did't hit this guy with more rounds, he may have picked his RPG up and continued to fight. Only when they hit him with another few round was he a gonner. The 5.56 has a tendency to zip through targets non vital areas and offers no knockdown effect. It is a good round for hunting rabits, but would you use it to hunt Deer? Only if you felt like chasing the deer around the woods for 15 minuted waiting for it to bleed out.
 
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