Magazine Retention?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

On mag changes, there are basically two schools of thought that I have seen. One is that you need to get your rifle back in the fight and you can worry about retrieving empty magazines when the fight is over. The second is that a rifle without working magazines is useless and you must learn to retain your magazines.

In my limited experience, it seems many instructors teaching from an LEO or self-defense perspective prefer a fast reload where you worry about the empty magazines later. Many military trainers on the other hand, seem to emphasize mag retention more, most likely due to the different constraints each faces.

A few stories illustrating each side, some from personal experience and some I've heard secondhand.

Shooting a force-on-force scenario, I run the magazine dry with an armed assailant less than seven yards away. There is no time for mag retention - I drop the mag on the ground as I run while reaching for the spare.

In timed shooting, speed reload beats mag retention every time even among shooters who train and practice mag retention.

Shooter is running a course of fire and drops his 9mm mag on the deck. At the end of the course when he retrieves it, it is full of sand and non-functional. He can't return it to function before his next run.

Contractors get involved in a gunfight in Asia. They are each armed only with a pistol and two magazines. As they are pulling back to the vehicle to leave, they are held up as one of the contractors is making weird hand gestures and neither shooting or moving. He has dropped his mag on the deck and it has disappeared into the muck. He is trying to fish it out of the muck because they are in a weapons-restrictive country and will not get any more magazines. In the meantime, he isn't firing, he isn't moving and his compatriots are running out of ammo. Eventually he abandons the lost mag. If that sounds far-fetched for the average LEO or citizen, just remember Katrina... very similar environment.

Clearly, there isn't one solution that works well in every circumstance. However, since we tend to do what we are trained to do, the question is which should we be training for? Which is the better default solution?

 

[sacp81170a]

Interesting problem. I'd say it definitely depends on the situation. If you're "in country" dropped mags can be picked up and used by your enemy. Train for retention. Standard practice stateside, speed reload. Your empty magazines won't do you any good if you're dead.

 

[Jeff White]

It's situationally dependent. If you empty your magazine and you're still in a fight, speed reload and worry about picking it up after the fight is over.

If you are reloading during a pause in the action or are behind cover retain your mag.

Train to retain the magazine.

Jeff

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Wondered About This

This thought has crossed my mind more than once.

I'm aligned with Jeff's thoughts on this.

Keep the mag if you can. Otherwise stay alive.

Which leads me to wonder . . . is there some way, some device, some trick that makes mag retention easy or reliable?

I can't offhand visualize anything.

Would be a worthwhile gadget though, if you could get it to work.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Which leads me to wonder . . . is there some way, some device, some trick that makes mag retention easy or reliable?

Do you mean something like a dump pouch? Those seem to be fairly popular.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

For what it's worth, when we were in Kuwait we went through some extra training done by a contractor as part of our train up to go north. One thing they had us practice was really fast reloads without retaining the magazine. Depress the magazine release, let the magazine drop on the ground, stick in a new one. (Imagine how much fun that was with a front heavy, 203-equipped M4 shooting left handed...)

Afterwards the First Sergeant (company senior NCO) that was out there with us came out and said to all of us "DO NOT throw your magazine on the ground. If you wreck the ones you have you won't be getting anymore." I think we probably have some magazine floating around in case someone was really in a bind, but it'd not something we encourage. If you are nose to nose with a threat, reload as fast as you can, but otherwise it makes sense to me to retain the magazine.


Regarding the dump pouch, I don't shoot it out with terrorists too much (never), but I'm a big fan of just using your cargo pocket. Esp the cargo pockets on military uniforms, which are quite roomy. Sure you could wear a dump pouch, but you are going to be wearing it right over that cargo pocket that could do pretty much the same job. Just my two cents...

 

[stevemis]

Stateside self-defense: I'd drop the empties on the ground, just like I do at the range (no worries, I pick them up after I'm done shooting!). Of course, if the magazine isn't empty, don't leave it behind! Generally speaking, magazines are cheap and available. An empty magazine during a gunfight isn't very useful, and retaining takes your attention away from the task at hand -- survival. If magazines are that important, I guess you can go back and find them.. otherwise, I'm sure the police would be more than happy to retrieve and bag for evidence.

 

[JamisJockey]

*IMHO*
The average citizen, training to protect themselves and thier home should only be concerned with the 'typical' gunfight....exchanging a few rounds with a couple home invaders or punks on the street. Getting a dry weapon back in the fight quickly by dumping a mag seems the correct solution. One should also practice retention, for the 'tactical' reload.

 

[Thin Black Line]

For what it's worth, when we were in Kuwait we went through some extra training done by a contractor as part of our train up to go north. One thing they had us practice was really fast reloads without retaining the magazine.

We had similar training by a contractor in TX. Go as the situation dictates.

Afterwards the First Sergeant (company senior NCO) that was out there with us came out and said to all of us "DO NOT throw your magazine on the ground. If you wreck the ones you have you won't be getting anymore." I think we probably have some magazine floating around in case someone was really in a bind, but it'd not something we encourage.

My unit had absolutely no problem getting extra mags and ammo and we
we were CSS. Your 1SG needs to learn how to work the system in Iraq.

 

[taliv]

let me qualify this by saying i have no idea what i'm talking about...


but it seems to me that every poster is avoiding bart's question, which says you're going to do what you trained to do. you can't pick both. you have to pick one or the other. if you train both, i guess that implies your actions under pressure will be largely unpredictable. (although I hear Jeff saying "train to retain")

if you feel you can train to drop mags when you're in the US, and retain mags when you're overseas, please explain how you train for this.

again, the point is that the reports of high-pressure events are chock full of bizarre, non-nonsensical actions wholly inappropriate to the circumstances because they trained that way.

i can't count the times i've heard some of you say you're going to do what you trained to do. are you going to hold onto the mags or drop them?

 

[AndyC]

Dump the empty mags - you have bigger issues to worry about if you're in the middle of a bunfight. If you're inside a vehicle at the time (typical contractor scenario), the mags can be dumped inside the vehicle anyway.

Only time I'd hang onto one or two empties is if I were on foot and scampering over the desert.

 

[sacp81170a]

if you feel you can train to drop mags when you're in the US, and retain mags when you're overseas, please explain how you train for this.

Question answered then. Since I'm not planning on going overseas, I'll train to dump empties.

 

[rino451]

Train both ways and apply as the situation dictates. Store the retained where ever. Shove it under LBV/PC, in a cargo pocket, etc. I can't see a scenario where one would need a pouch really... Besides during training when you don't want to mess up your mags, which isn't train the way your fight and fight the way you train but anyway...

ETA

if you feel you can train to drop mags when you're in the US, and retain mags when you're overseas, please explain how you train for this.

No different than training for combat, tactical, and administrative reloads. Matter of fact, one of those reloads typically dictates mag retention.

 

[geekWithA.45]

You've identified a fundamental difference.

Civies are taught to "forget the mag", based on the assumption that they're solo in an SD fight, an empty mag is useless, and there's more mags on the shelf at GunCo.

Military's taught to retain the mag, based on the assumption that there are no more to be had, and than the individual shooter has several buddies who can maintain the volume of fire while he spends the extra second or two in the retention excercise.

I think you've simply got to recognize what your situation is, and make sure your most recent drills are appropriate.

If you need to balance and make your training consistent, a compromise is ALWAYS retain your LAST mag, to ensure at least minimum future functionality.

This is also SOP for an M-14 type rifle anyway, because you start loading strippers through the top to keep your last mag in the fight.

 

[Kor]

I'm gonna say that your immediate environment at the moment your rifle runs dry should dictate your response:

- If in close proximity to the enemy(within 25 yds) and no cover is available, transition to your handgun immediately and either neutralize the threat or suppress the threat with accurate self-covering fire as you move to the nearest cover. The transition to handgun is a faster, simpler gross-motor-type skill than trying to speed-load a rifle - try it with a timer, see for yourself, especially while moving laterally in relation to the target. If you're gonna train a non-diagnostic, default response, this would be the response I would train myself to perform. (BTW, going through the time and effort to unlimber a long gun and kit up with your chest rig, LBE, tac-vest, open-top speed-reload mag pouch, etc. and NOT adding a pistol somewhere on your belt is, IMO, kinda silly and short-sighted - unless one is so limited due to a military unit's policy or TO&E restrictions. Rifles are easier to shoot and more accurate and powerful than handguns, but pistols are convenient to carry - so, carry one already!)

- If behind cover or at longer distances(say, 100+ yds), you're not TOTALLY safe, but still safe ENOUGH that you can afford to take a bit more time and think your actions through more deliberately, step-by-step; if you've got cover, and you don't NEED to resume fire IMMEDIATELY for one reason or another(i.e. the so-called "lull" in the gunfight), then you may as well retain that empty magazine - but if you have no cover, and/or NEED to resume fire IMMEDIATELY because you have to provide covering fire, perform a quick/precise hostage-rescue shot, the threat charges you, etc. then go ahead and get the rifle speed-loaded and back in the fight, and worry about your mags later after the immediate threat is neutralized. The point is, since you've got the time/distance/cover advantage at this point, you don't HAVE to reflexively execute your default immediate-action drill, but can instead take a little extra time to CONSCIOUSLY direct your actions...which in turn means that you DON'T have to train yourself to UNconsciously execute either the speed-load or the tac-load or the reload-with-retention, just practice the relevant skills/motions enough that you can perform them smoothly without fumbling.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you need to reload under fire you need to do it as fast as is humanly possible. When they're shooting and you're not, you're losing.

Training for retention is based on a lot of "mights".

• There MIGHT be some rounds left in this magazine (even though it's very common to miscount rounds fired in gunfights.)
  
• I MIGHT be in a situation where I can afford to take twice as long to reload.
  
• Dropping that mag MIGHT make it impossible for me to retrieve it.
  
• Having those few rounds or that magazine later in the fight MIGHT make a difference.

I'm not saying that there aren't any situations where it might be beneficial to retain a magazine. I'm just saying that it requires a lot of "mights" to work out just right in order for it pay off. In other words you're paying a measurable time penalty for something that will only benefit you if a lot of circumstances line up just right.

In my opinion we wouldn't even be discussing this if some "enlightened" individuals hadn't struck upon retention reload rules as a convenient method for differentiating one "brand" of "practical competition" from another "brand" of "practical competition".

 

[geekWithA.45]

Kor: My understanding is that most trainers are recommending transition to handgun for _any_ rifle stoppage when engaged at less than 25 yards.

JohnSka: I think there's really more to it than the diff between idpa/ipsc rules.

All: Yes, we fight as we train, but we train to offload the parts of the fight that don't require thought, so as to make room for the parts that do.

Training does not relieve us of the burden of thinking, because without thinking, it's not possible to outsmart our opponent. Training does not turn us into automatons who have no choice but follow whatever ingrained path we've setup. It simply means we don't have to look at our guns to reload them, in the presence of befuddled mind, we're more likely to do something reasonable, rather than standing there going "duuuh?", and lessens the likely hood of overlooking something critical under stress, (like seeking cover, or getting off the line of force)

 

[JohnKSa]

I think there's really more to it than the diff between idpa/ipsc rules.

Argh! I knew that if I put that last line in there it would provide convenient method to allow people to ignore the rest of my post and respond without addressing the other points I made--but I did it anyway.

I hijacked my own post.

Ok, I'm not saying that's ALL there is to it or that's all I would have said.

 

[sacp81170a]

In my opinion we wouldn't even be discussing this if some "enlightened" individuals hadn't struck upon retention reload rules as a convenient method for differentiating one "brand" of "practical competition" from another "brand" of "practical competition".

JohnKSa:

FWIW, you and Kor covered the subject well in every significant aspect. I think your comment about differing "brands" was right on target. I went back and reread your post several times and I fail to see where you hijacked yourself.

I got in trouble once for using an IAD that I had drilled into me in the military during a training exercise because it was unexpected and unfamiliar to the trainer. The fact that it worked astoundingly well didn't keep me from getting chewed out. I'd rather take the word of those who've BTDT and those who make sense than engaging in an "either/or" theoretical exercise. The general consensus here seems to be that there is no black and white solution to the problem of mag retention. Circumstances on the ground at the moment will dictate the wisest course of action. Until then, train for what will give you the best odds of survival under all circumstances.

 

[Nightcrawler]

It would seem to me that this would be a good reason to stock up on plenty of magazines/clips/moonclips/speedloaders/whatever, so you're not hurting if you lose a few in training.

The way I practice, I let the empty mag fly. (As a matter of fact, the way I do a speed relaod with my FAL often results in the expended magazine being flung downrange.) If I have time to stop shooting and do a "tac" reload, then I have enough time to stuff the partially loaded magazine in my back pocket.

Otherwise, I've got plenty more mags at home, more than I ever use for practice. I won't be out if a lose a couple.

 

[Mannlicher]

worrying about retaining magazines, as others have said, depends on who you are, who you work for, and where you are.
Since the only scenerio I can think of where I would be going through a lot of magazines would be something bad, and here in the States, I would be very much into retention.

 

[B.D. Turner]

Most civilian shooting incidents only involve three to five rounds fired total. While there are exceptions to every rule.
While working for the sheriff's office we were trained to put the empty mag back into our pants pocket then grab the fresh mag and reload. I had a real problem with this school of thought and thought that the empty mag in pocket was a waste of time and that we should let the mag fall free. We were using H&K USP .45's and ten round mags with two spare mags on our duty belt. The instructor pointed out that our patrol cars had plenty of ammunition in them but if I were to fight back to the car and had no mags to reload I would be up the creek. I pointed out that loaded mags would be the answer and not just ammo but the department would not fund the extra mags.

 

[Zak Smith]

Of the three types of reloads, the emergency and speed reloads are done by definition to continue fighting the fight you're in now. How many empty magazines you have for tomorrow doesn't help if you lose this fight.

 

[Blakenzy]

Weld lanyard loops to the magazines' baseplates, tie cords to them and then stitch the cords to your load bearing equipment. The cord doesn't have to be too long, arm's length or so. When you burn through all your ammo you will end up looking like and odd wind chime with all the mags clatering around your knees, but you won't lose any...

 

[[email protected]]

Train both methods, with a heavy (like 80%) emphasis on the just dropping the mag and getting the gun loaded. The "speed-load" is much more likely to have to be done under extreme stress, while any time you would remove a magazine with ammo left in it would be; A: A feedway-type malfunction, in which case you want to get rid of the probably defective magzine anyway; or B: a brief "lull" in the action behind good cover, which will make for a much less stressful scenario than if your gun went dry.

DanO