Magsafe Ammo

[mec]

I did something similar with a piece of meat and a .380 RCBD.- Performed as advertised .
The rounds functioned in the SIG 232 perfectly and also held together very well after being cycled through the gun several times.- This was something we wanted to check because some other specialty loads (not rcbd) were prone to come apart after a few trips through the chamber.


I do not recall the velocities but they were high and consistent shot to shot. Got the impression that these people really do care about what they are doing.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

The .380 round has been recently beefed up to over 1800 fps. The stuff you guys probably have was the stuff I had at a little over 1500 fps.

KR, I was not the one who shot the beef, that was done by the people at the RBCD LE distributor, LeMas Ltd, in Little Rock, Ar. For those that have not seen the shots you can go here: (keep in mind that this is a 10 POUND roast being hit)
http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/a10mmSPLP.htm

 

[snubby]

Jeff,
Could you help clarify how the RBCD round works? It's called a TFSP (totally fragmenting soft point), which would imply the compressed metal disintegrates upon impact. On the other hand, it's seen as defeating hard targets as a solid (see the ammolab.com tests). The concept of the RBCD is a good one, though I'm not clear how it's designed to work. Thanks.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

snubby, I can't clarify it because I don't know. Best guess on my part is that it seems to be based on the density of what it is hitting. It will go through auto glass, sheet steel, even a couple of layers of sheet rock, but when it hits a wet medium it disrupts, violently. The optimum disruption seems to occur in warm meat. I have posted this before, it is dramatic:

It isn't nearly as dramatic in cold meat. The ammolab test are old versions of the ammo at lower velocities. I don't know if they plan on retesting, I doubt it because our ammo is pricey and the company does not give any away for commercial testing, they also don't advertise. Understand that nearly 80% of all production is to government agencies and departments.

Assuming that you saw this:
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

 

[BluesBear]

Animal tissue has different densities depending on the temperatures.

Most animal tissues are designed to work best in the 90º-100º range.
Ever notice your muscles get stiffer in cold weather?

Ever try to cut meat straight out of the refrigerator?
It's a lot easier to cut at room temperature. And a steak served hot is (or should be) very tender. But that left over steak in the doggie bag you bring home from the Outback is somewhat tougher to cut and chew if it's eaten at room temperature. If meat has been frozen then it's density will never be quite the same as it was.

The ONLY way to ever know what a bullet's true terminal ballistic effects will be on people, will be to shoot enough human beings with them until patterns develop. Until then it's all conjecture.

Now that could be a solution to prison overcrowding.

I have a box of RBCD.45 but I haven't had an oportunity to test it yet.
As soon as someone breaks into my house I'll let you know how it works.

 

[Sleuth]

Jeff, Have you personally shot any into any test medium? The reason I ask is the "they don't advertise, they dont have any outside testing" reminds me of several other products. Nothing Personal, but those products turned out to be ""Tremendously effective"" only in their advertising department.
Exploder rounds was one, "Rhino" ammo another, IIRC, and there were some other "secret" "government agency only" rounds touted as the ultimate defensive round. When I, as a Government employee with a Top Secret clearance asked for documentation, or at least the name of the Goverment Agency that had adopted this stuff, they refused to tell me - in other words, they were lieing.

Since penetration and expansion are opposities, I would really like to hear their explanation of how it works.

 

[BluesBear]

Exploder rounds were FUN!

I sold a LOT of that ammo and did a fair bit of testing on it. It wasn't half bad stuff. I dudn't carry it as my life or death ammo but against an unprotected target it would put a hurting on someone. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be shot with it.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

The only thing that I have shot with it is a 3 liter bottle filled with water. It exploded as expected. The reason that there isn't any outside testing is that most people, Evan Marshall included, want the ammo for free. I can see why, it ain't cheap, but RBCD does not give away ammo. They really don't care much about the civilian market. It wasn't even available to us until 1999 and even today nearly 80% of the production is for governments. That is why there is no advertising and when they do start advertising next year it will not be in regular mainstream gun mags. I never tried those other rounds mentioned, but back in the 1980's I carried Glaser Safety Slugs, dispite accuracy problems, and by 1994 I had switched to MagSafes. Joe Zambone even became a buddy of mine, we both rode the same kind of motorcycles. His stuff was good, but RBCD is faster, operates at lower pressures, penetrates intermediate barriers, and costs less.

That government ammo deal is odd. Frequently when the government offers you a contract to develop a load for them it comes with a non-disclosure agreement. I think just about everything that RBCD has did. In fact when I wrote that article on TFL about RBCD ammo being used by the Canadian sniper for the world record sniper shot in Afghanistan last year, Roscoe Stoker, the man who was the owner of RBCD, called me the next day because he had gotten a call from the govt. 'strongly suggesting' that he review his non-disclosure agreement with his attorney. Thing is that I did'nt get the info from Roscoe at all. He didn't know about it until I told him what happened. RBCD did a load called the 'Air Marshall' or 'Meteor'. It was developed under contract. It is a light bullet going nearly 3000 fps from a handgun. Blows huge cavities at 25 feet, but will not penetrate the skin of an airplane and will bounce off a leather jacket at 75 feet. It is considered non-lethal at 50 feet. Here is an article on it:
http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm

This was done over two years ago. I spoke with a FAM this last summer and they are carrying SIG P229's with 125gr Gold Dots. I don't know what happened to the RBCD stuff.

Point is MANY manufacturers provide ammo to various arms of the govt. and many are told in the contract not to discuss it.

As far as an explanation, I can only guess. With a mechanical engineer friend we have decided that Roscoe has come up with a polymer that falls apart within a certain velocity area when passing through a particular desity of material. The slug will penetrate stuff that is hard, but when things soften up it expands faster. The density of the warm meat is the 'perfect' density, while in cold meat it will expand, but not as well. It goes through auto glass or a sheet of steel, but not a jug of water. Sheet rock is in between, so it penetrates some, then falls apart after many. It seems to be a combination of velocity and density. I don't think heat has anything to do with it. This is all just a guess, but it is the best I can come up with, if anyone has a better idea I would love to hear it.

Bluesbear, you need to go play with 2 or 3 of those rounds and shoot something good. Which .45 ACP load did you get? There are 3 different ones.