Making an illegal gun legal again?

[WestKentucky]

I have recently seen several firearms which have been grossly “bubba smithed”, some of which border on being legal or not. At least one of the has certainly been illegal, which made me wonder what could be done there to legally possess the firearm.

I know that the gun would require work to restore it to legal status. Welding a muzzle device on, replacing short stocks to achieve OAL etc. but what about that work in progress... if grandson inherits papaws unregistered SBS then can he simply remove the barrel and be OK? Would maintaining possession of the short barrel constitute legal charges for constructive possession?

What about the gunsmith who is doing the work to restore the gun, how do they stay on the right side of the law?

I ask because the prices on chopped down shotguns is far better than a pristine gun, so if I can buy the gun with illegal portions removed to make it legal to own then I would do so, and for a SBS I would be looking to permanently affix a “dial-a-duck” choke or simply replace the barrel.

 

[ilbob]

It is not illegal to own a receiver with no barrel and no stock.

Nor is it illegal to work on or own a long gun that has had the barrel and/or stock removed.

the BATF says it is not illegal to cut down a barrel and weld on a muzzle brake (or something similar) to make the barrel long enough to be legal. That suggests you can have a short barrel for at least some period of time without legal liability.

If someone sells you a firearm with some parts removed I don't see how you have any issues with what it might once have been. having said that the BATF also says regardless of what it might be now if it once was a machine gun it remains a machine gun even if it no longer is one.

OTOH, is it worth however much money you might save compared to the potential legal fees? personally, I'd just pass on the deal.

 

[WestKentucky]

So, for the sake of argument, if a person buys something like a Remington 870 that has a short barrel, they are still in possession of an illegal weapon for the 30 seconds that it takes to unscrew the magazine nut and pull the barrel. Very unlikely to get in trouble for such, but still illegal for that very short window of time.

On more complicated guns with pinned or screwed in barrels how would a person who has acquired the gun by some means protect the self from potential legal issues? Or the gunsmith who receives the gun to be returned to a legal status?

I know the easy thing to do is to refuse to accept the gun, but that’s not always the answer. If it were a family heirloom or historically significant gun then a person would want to maintain it and to do so properly it would have to be made legal. Could removal of a trigger group, bolt, or other parts possibly satisfy the disassembly requirement until illegal features can be removed? You still have a firearm (serialized reciever) with parts attached which do not fit within the law. Is the “firearm” technically disassembled until that short barrel is off of it, or the gun is otherwise made legal?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I followed a police auction held at Pigeon Forge once. They had several shotgun receivers with buttstock and forearm up for bid (barrels were not included because they had been sawn off). So a short barrel shotgun with no barrel is no longer an SBS.

 

[ilbob]

I followed a police auction held at Pigeon Forge once. They had several shotgun receivers with buttstock and forearm up for bid (barrels were not included because they had been sawn off). So a short barrel shotgun with no barrel is no longer an SBS.

That would seem logical but I don't know that is its legal status. Just because a police department sold it that way does not make it "legal".

 

[dogtown tom]

So, for the sake of argument, if a person buys something like a Remington 870 that has a short barrel, they are still in possession of an illegal weapon for the 30 seconds that it takes to unscrew the magazine nut and pull the barrel. Very unlikely to get in trouble for such, but still illegal for that very short window of time.

Simply detaching the barrel doesn't solve the problem. As long as you are in possession of that barrel, you are in violation of the NFA. You would need a legal configuration to avoid constructive possession of an SBS.

On more complicated guns with pinned or screwed in barrels how would a person who has acquired the gun by some means protect the self from potential legal issues? Or the gunsmith who receives the gun to be returned to a legal status?

Get rid of the barrel that does not have a nonNFA configuration.

I know the easy thing to do is to refuse to accept the gun, but that’s not always the answer. If it were a family heirloom or historically significant gun then a person would want to maintain it and to do so properly it would have to be made legal. Could removal of a trigger group, bolt, or other parts possibly satisfy the disassembly requirement until illegal features can be removed?

No.

You still have a firearm (serialized reciever) with parts attached which do not fit within the law. Is the “firearm” technically disassembled until that short barrel is off of it, or the gun is otherwise made legal?

If you have a SBS as defined by Federal law, it requires a tax stamp to legally possess. If you remove the short barrel and install a barrel of 18" or longer you have removed the shotgun from its SBS status as long as:
1. the OAL is greater than 26"
2. the original barrel of less than 18" is no longer in your possession.

 

[ilbob]

Interestingly, it would appear that the BATF has ruled one can change a legally registered SBS into an unregistered normal shotgun merely by making the barrel 18" or longer and the overall length > 26" without having to notify the BATF that it is no longer an SBS. It's not clear to me if it is legal to then change it back to the SBS configuration although it would seem logical that it would be since it is already registered that way, but logic seems to have little to do with how such things are handled.

 

[dogtown tom]

That would seem logical but I don't know that is its legal status. Just because a police department sold it that way does not make it "legal".

The fact that it does not have a barrel makes it's legal status crystal clear...…….it's cannot be a SBS because it does not have a barrel.

 

[ilbob]

Simply detaching the barrel doesn't solve the problem. As long as you are in possession of that barrel, you are in violation of the NFA. You would need a legal configuration to avoid constructive possession of an SBS.

Suppose you own both an AR15 carbine and an AR15 pistol. Presumably you are not in "constructive possession" of a SBR just because you have a short barrel available. It would seem there would need to be more to it than just having a short barrel available.

 

[dogtown tom]

Interestingly, it would appear that the BATF has ruled one can change a legally registered SBS into an unregistered normal shotgun merely by making the barrel 18" or longer and the overall length > 26" without having to notify the BATF that it is no longer an SBS.

It's not a ruling, its the law. SBS/SBR are all about the configuration.
As with an SBS, you can take your SBR across state lines without ATF permission by merely replacing the short barrel with one of at least 16".....making it a Title I rifle.

It's not clear to me if it is legal to then change it back to the SBS configuration although it would seem logical that it would be since it is already registered that way, but logic seems to have little to do with how such things are handled.

Sure its legal, as long as you have an NFA tax stamp to possess an SBR/SBS.

 

[ilbob]

The fact that it does not have a barrel makes it's legal status crystal clear...…….it's cannot be a SBS because it does not have a barrel.

I am inclined to agree but I am not sure of the actual legal status of such a firearm.

 

[dogtown tom]

Suppose you own both an AR15 carbine and an AR15 pistol. Presumably you are not in "constructive possession" of a SBR just because you have a short barrel available. It would seem there would need to be more to it than just having a short barrel available.

"....legal configuration...."
AR15 rifle with a barrel of less than 16" needs a tax stamp. You cannot possess such a barrel unless you have a tax stamp or another legal configuration.
1. The firearm in question was originally a pistol. Meaning you could go pistol>rifle>pistol. That's a legal configuration.
2. If the firearm in question was originally a rifle, it requires a tax stamp to attach the short barrel. It can never be a pistol.
3. If the firearm was originally a rifle, mere possession of a short barrel without a legal configuration is constructive possession of an SBR.
4. Having another AR pistol, a stripped or complete lower without shoulder stock ARE legal configuration that you could attach the short barrel.

 

[dogtown tom]

I am inclined to agree but I am not sure of the actual legal status of such a firearm.

Well, ATF and myself are pretty darn sure.

 

[milemaker13]

As to the original question... I agree that technically, there would be that illegal 30 seconds to unscrew the barrel... so, have the seller unscrew the barrel first then sell you the rest. No technical problem there I'd imagine. Now it's just a barrel- less or stock-less shotgun receiver.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... if a person buys something like a Remington 870 that has a short barrel, they are still in possession of an illegal weapon for the 30 seconds that it takes to unscrew the magazine nut and pull the barrel. ...

If someone transfers a short barrel shotgun without NFA formalities both the transferor and transferee have violated the NFA.

 

[dogtown tom]

As to the original question... I agree that technically, there would be that illegal 30 seconds to unscrew the barrel... so, have the seller unscrew the barrel first then sell you the rest. No technical problem there I'd imagine. Now it's just a barrel- less or stock-less shotgun receiver.

It's an SBS whether assembled or unassembled.
From ATF Ruling 2011-4:

….A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.....

The same concept of "constructive possession" would apply to a disassembled shotgun. In short...………….DON'T TAKE POSSESSION OF THE SHORT BARREL!

 

[Art Eatman]

A gunsmith friend had a single-shot shotgun brought in for repair. Not repairable. He cut off part of the barrel and knurled it to use as the handle for a wrist-exerciser. The junked gun went into his "wild animal" box as future repair parts. A few years later, a warranted search of his various stored items revealed the short barrel. He wound up doing a year in the federal pen at Big Spring.

 

[Elkins45]

If this is about wanting to keep a family heirloom then how about rendering the short barrel inoperable by welding a plug into the chamber? It’s no longer capable of accepting ammunition and therefore isn’t even a functional firearm in that configuration. Kinda like a DEWAT machine gun in a museum somewhere.

I would let the seller take care of this BEFORE accepting possession of the item in question. Or only take the barrel and then accept the receiver once the barrel was rendered non functional.

Is this legal?

 

[dogtown tom]

A gunsmith friend had a single-shot shotgun brought in for repair. Not repairable. He cut off part of the barrel and knurled it to use as the handle for a wrist-exerciser. The junked gun went into his "wild animal" box as future repair parts. A few years later, a warranted search of his various stored items revealed the short barrel. He wound up doing a year in the federal pen at Big Spring.

So...….was the reason for the year in federal pen because of the short bbl in the parts bin? I doubt it.
If LE is conducting a search its because they have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed.

 

[MachIVshooter]

On more complicated guns with pinned or screwed in barrels how would a person who has acquired the gun by some means protect the self from potential legal issues? Or the gunsmith who receives the gun to be returned to a legal status?

If replacing the barrel with one of legal length is your intent, order your new barrel and get it disassembled and rid yourself of the short barrel as quickly as possible, and just don't yap about it in the interim. If you have the means, it'd be best to weld on a length of pipe bringing it to legal length until you get around to removing it.

Any smith with 07/02 or 10/02 can be in possession of NFA items which are unregistered until such time as they are completed, at which point we have to file a form 2. If the receiver brought to us is going to leave as a title I firearm, then there will be no registration, and the weapon is handed back to the owner when we're done. The only things which can't be restored are machine guns or DDs (must find a 10/02 to deal with DDs).

I'm not encouraging people to do anything illegal, but folks are way too skittish about possibly possessing something that could maybe be construed as NFA during a brief period of reconfiguration, repair or restoration. ATF hasn't the manpower, inclination or authority to monitor 100 million gun owners 24/7 to make sure not a one of them is momentarily violating statutes that they routinely plea down blatant violations of anyway. There are scores of unregistered NFA items floating around out there from AOWs to machine guns, but about the only ones which get prosecuted are people who are involved in other criminal activities and get caught, or those who do something really stupid like post it to YouTube & Facebook for the whole world to see.

 

[Art Eatman]

Short barrel + receiver, although not-repairable = separate charge from other issues. Doesn't matter about other problems.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I believe someone posted a few years ago wondering why a section of larger gauge barrel had been welded onto the end of a smaller gauge shotgun barrel.

Added: I don't think it was done to affect the pattern. It would not have worked like a "jug choke". The larger gauge extension would have no effect on the shot charge. Pattern would be determined by the cylinder bore of the muzzle inside the extension. The only explanation that sounded right to me was: the gun had been fired with the muzzle plugged with mud; the muzzle had split; the barrel had been sawn off behind the split; the extension had been added to bring the barrel up to or beyond minimum legal.

Quite a few shotgun barrels wearing Cutts Compensators were shortened below 18" before the compensator was added as a permanent extension.

 

[GAF]

Just me, but I would walk away and not worry about all of the legalities . It cost me nothing to err on the side of caution.
When I do not know i say no.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I'll repeat this in case I haven't posted this here already.

ATF measures barrel length by closing the breech on an empty chamber, running a metal rod down the muzzle til it stops on the breechface, taping the rod at the muzzle, then measuring the rod to the tape mark.

I have an old shotgun with barrel length that measures about 18.3" using the ATF method. But about an inch of barrel is screwed into the receiver. The outside of the barrel from receiver front to muzzle is about 17.4". I think a lot of people may be spooked into deep sixing an old shotgun because they do not know the ATF definition of barrel length and how to measure it.

 

[RPZ]

Buy the shotgun minus the barrel. Leave the barrel with the seller.