Massad Ayoob Strikes again

[Old Fuff]

Only in the US are you likely to get sued if you round punches through the target and into a bystander.

Considering the odds, I'm usually but not always willing to take the chance. If I get into a shooting I'll probably get sued by somebody regardless of the circumstances.

As I pointed out, if the evil person has cover - or in an unlikely event, body armor, under penetration becomes a negative. I doubt that there is any perfect answer. Foresight and the likely environment where a shooting might occur should dictate ammunition choice. If one feels more secure carrying the latest in so called "high performance" ammunition that's what they should use. But ask yourself, "If I have to punch through something substantial to reach whoever is attacking me will this ammunition do it?"

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Considering that in gunfights, only about 20-30% of the rounds hit anyway, I'd say that overpenetration is a bit overstated. Collateral damage is much more likely to occur from misses than with shots that overpenetrate.
That being said, I use expanding bullets for SD, but if I happened to have a magazine of FMJ, that wouldn't stop me from using it if I needed to. But we do need to watch our backstops.

 

[The Bushmaster]

There aren't too many autos out there that won't function using hollow point ammunition. So hard ball being the only bullet that works for you, usp9, "is moot"...Bouncing bullets that have missed the intended BG is not a scenario I would like to subscribe to. Over penetration is a concern to me and if I can help it I try, by lots of practice, to illiminate or lower the chances of a miss in the first place. All of my semi-auto pistols function well with HP ammunition...

 

[The Tourist]

First off, in any debate you're allowed to have an opposing viewpoint.

Several years ago, this same debate went on in one of the gun rags--and I believe Mas took the "hollowpoint" side of the debate.

The "hardball" side was taken by Chuck Taylor. Now granted, I'll be the first to say that sometimes Mr. Taylor grates on my nerves--that's just how it goes in a debate. But he did show some pictures of hardball removed from the bodies of felons, and they mushroomed.

Mr. Taylor also teaches with a 1911. He probably knows as much as most of the notable firearms training schools. Correct my memory, but I believe he also taught at Gunsite Raven.

But here's my point, both men offer valid points and know a lot more than we do.

For example, I happen to like the writing/advice of Jerry Vancook over the same from James Keating. But here's the kicker, they're friends.

I read every article I see from Mas Ayoob, and I'm the better for doing so. However, a mushroomed hardball exists.

 

[DougDubya]

Ah yes, Phil - the FBI defense for choosing bullets that will cause grievous harm to bystanders.

 

[MCgunner]

"If I have to punch through something substantial to reach whoever is attacking me will this ammunition do it?"

I ain't real worried about having an extended shoot out from cover. I'm worried about either stopping the threat point blank or finding cover and holding off the attack with minimal shots fired while I dial 911 or getting the hell out of dodge so long as that's an option. I'm not going into combat, simply worried about defending myself against an assault. I'm not going to be running from cover to cover in an extended gun battle. I don't carry a gun just to look for a gun fight and I ain't even going to use it if I can get around that. Pull the trigger and you're out 2000 bucks on a retainer for a lawyer that charges 250 bucks an hour, I know this for a fact.

Considering that in gunfights, only about 20-30% of the rounds hit anyway, I'd say that overpenetration is a bit overstated.

Or, perhaps the need for practice, practice, practice is a bit understated. You are criminally responsible for every round fired, whether it penetrates a BG or a wall or what ever, at least in my state. A few years in TDC is not a fun trip to camp Karankawa.

 

[Pat-inCO]

Statistically, 70% of the rounds fired at the BG MISS (FBI statistics). Why then is there an issue of "over penetration"?

 

[SaxonPig]

In 1975 I shot and killed an armed robber. Ammo was military surplus 45 ACP 230 grain FMJ. The cops actually went and found several of the spent bullets that had passed through the perp's body. They only traveled maybe 50-75 yards and fell to Earth so not much left after passing through the torso.

They showed them to me and all could have been reloaded and fired again. Zero expansion.

 

[earplug]

Colorado Springs had two recent shooting incidents where the bad guy was trying to shoot and was hit in the arms. I don't know the details, but i'm wondering if FMJ or a SWC would have passed through the arms and hit the chest area. The magic jello box and frangible bullets don't always take into account the targets arms.

 

[MCgunner]

I did a lot of ball out of the dirt at the range to melt and recycle through usually my .38s. I have seen deformed ones, hit a rock or something, but not a "mushroomed" one. The hollow points often are flat, sometimes separate from the jacket. If a dirt mound can't mushroom a ball round, well......

Colorado Springs had two recent shooting incidents where the bad guy was trying to shoot and was hit in the arms. I don't know the details, but i'm wondering if FMJ or a SWC would have passed through the arms and hit the chest area. The magic jello box and frangible bullets don't always take into account the targets arms.

Go shoot something. I know that a .38 140 JHP will pass through a 100 lb boar's head, completely through the length of the neck into the throax and out the sternum. I've done it. I was impressed. This is a +P load from a 2" Taurus M85. Decent exit wound, too, obvious expansion.

I've shot through several deer shoulders with a 158 grain SWC in .357 magnum loads. I figure the bullet probably wound up in the next county from the looks of it. You don't worry about over-penetration when you hunt game. If you're .45 won't shoot through someone's arm, I suggest moving up to .38 special +P, cause if it'll penetrate 15 inches of hog skull, flesh, and bone, I don't think even Sly Stallone's arm is a problem.

 

[The Tourist]

reloaded and fired again

I'm a reloader, and on several occasions I've found spent hollowpoint bullets that went clean through my target, hit the snow behind it and also stayed pristine.

During the Super-Vel debates before the Miami shot-out, several people opined that a hollowpoint would simply pack with material and act like a solid.

I believe that issue is why Hydo-Shock and pre-fragged (pre cut) bullets were invented.

 

[Brian Williams]

Combined duplicate threads, we only need one discussion on this and it will probably end up closed any way.

 

[BikerRN]

Mas doesn't need me to defend him, and I don't always agree with his point of view.

I do however find him articulate, well reasoned and thought provoking. Thus, I tend to subscribe to most of what he preaches. I vaugely recall him recommending 'ball ammo years ago, if your gun wouldn't feed hollowpoints, but I believe that recommendation has changed. We are a more litigeous society now than in the past.

There are too many "good guns" out there that will feed hollowpoints, no sense having one that won't. In a self defensive scenario I'm not looking at a protracted gunfight with having to lay down "cover fire" and such. Therefore I need a round that STOPS my assailant RIGHT NOW! Nothing more, nothing less.

Hardball ammo is notoriously ineffective compared to hollowpoint ammo. Why risk possible criminal prosecution for using ineffective ammo when there are better choices out there?

BikerRN

 

[mtcraigco]

For .45 I have to admit I like 200grn LSWC, cuts a REAL BIG CLEAN hole, penetrates well, flattens well, does not plug up with stuff. The flat frontal area and lead construction lend to reducing overpenetraion wth reducing it too much.
(IE through an arm and into the torso.)

Make sure your gun will eat it all day, every day though.

Nothing scientific there, just lots of rounds downrange with it into various mediums.

I'm also a big fan of CorBon pow'r'ball in 9mm, .40, .45

 

[scurtis_34471]

"If I have to punch through something substantial to reach whoever is attacking me will this ammunition do it?"

Firstly, that's a pretty unlikely scenario. The reality is that there's a lot more concealment than cover in most situations and any bullet will tear though a wood or sheet-rock wall. Secondly, blowing holes through substantial cover is not something handguns do well anyway. Most handguns are inherently under-powered weapons, so unless you like to carry a S&W .500 Magnum, I wouldn't worry too much about which round will make it through that concrete block wall.

I use JHP in anything 9mm or bigger, because it is usually the more effective stopper. When you get down to .380, it becomes a little more complicated because that round does not have very good penetration. For anything smaller than .380, I think ball is the only way to fly.

 

[DMZ]

In the June Issue of "Combat Handguns" Mas' has an article about malicious intent in which a SD shooter was convicted. He was using HP's in his 10mm.

 

[MCgunner]

No need for me to comment any further. scurtis_34471 pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[TxPhantom]

FMJ in smaller calibers...

I would think that the smaller calibers like 32, 380 and 25, would be more effective with a FMJ load. Especially in cooler weather where the b.g. may be wearing more clothing to penetrate. I agree that anything larger should be loaded with hollow points for better expansion.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Hardball ammo is notoriously ineffective compared to hollowpoint ammo.

What?? What's missing here is the other crucial point. As Skeeter used to repeat over & over again, he wants an ammo that will be statistically more reliable than the other when "crap hits the fan": that's hardball....
BTW, I'll stick with Chuck Taylor & Clint Smith on this one....

 

[MCgunner]

Hard to get "statistically more reliable" than the ammo I fire in my .45 and 9, which don't jam ever. I shoot hollow point, but I shoot reliable guns. I sold two POS 1911s because they weren't reliable with decent SD ammo. Actually, one of 'em got ripped off and I replaced it with a P90 Ruger. I don't keep guns that won't feed good ammo. FMJ is NOT my definition of good ammo. It ain't the ammo that's reliable feeding, it's the gun. You cannot jam my P90 with any factory ammo I've tried in it. It feeds flying ash trays to FMJ 100 percent, even will feed an empty case, I'd tried it. If I couldn't find an auto that would feed reliably with hollow points, I'd stick with revolvers. My SP101 feeds everything, 148 grain .38 wadcutters to 140 grain JHPs at 1335 fps.

 

[Headless]

I shot a .38 at a house wall once. It didn't go through it; it got lodged in the trim/interior wall just under a window. It was a hollowpoint DPX @ 110gr. A door frame would have stopped it dead, and I think a solid wooden wall would have too (wood planks x2) I load heavier rounds in my revolver now. Still HP though...

Just something to consider; not all handgun rounds are going to pentrate through wooden walls, though i'm sure they'd punch straight through drywall all day. I think i'd

 

[W.E.G.]

By the time I'm dipping into my FMJ supply for carry ammo, I've survived quite a while under SHTF conditions, and I really don't care about things like overpenetration.

 

[Geno]

Yeah, I read it a while back. Great piece, as always. We have some darned good writers here. Check out John Shirley's writing too! Good writers both!

Back to the topic, this is the reason why back in 1989-1990 school year I refused the Michigan State Police's request that I carry in school (I was the high school principal). We were facing a Columbine situation. Then, ball and HPs were about it for .45 ACP. I had nearly 500 students in a hallway 300 feet long, and 12 feet wide.

Even if I had hit a perp, then the risk was too high for over penetration. Now, with contemporary amunition, and with my current training I would not hesitate, and in fact encourage educators be allowed to carry in school and in fact 24/7 in all locations, even in court and at the local PDs. Heck, we do live in America, don't we?!

Alas, I drift. Excellent article, and good food for thought. Frequently I carry 4 magazines of Winchester 230 grain HPs, and 2 magazines of 230 ball. Sometimes you want deep penetration.

 

[CountGlockula]

I love reading Ayoob's stuff. I have to check this out.

 

[SwampWolf]

You are criminally responsible for every round fired, whether it penetrates a BG or a wall or what ever, at least in my state. A few years in TDC is not a fun trip to camp Karankawa.

So, are you saying that if, say, a law enforcement officer was able to shoot and kill a person who was in the process of murdering innocents (i.e., Colombine) and his life-saving round passed through the bg and struck another ,that said leo would (or could) be criminally prosecuted for this unintended consequence? Not necessarily doubting you (or your source) as I'm too well aware that there are many goofy laws existing throughout the U.S. Still, I would like to see the actual text of the aforementioned "law".