McCain, Kennedy propose amnesty plan for illegals

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Cool, are you saying the last amnesty (1986) caused the current problem?

It helped. Notice how the crossings increased by an estimated 30% in the weeks after Bush's announcement prior to the last election of his latest amnesty program.

Amnesty's are fine, AFTER the border is sealed. Without a deadly serious effort at sealing the border periodic amnesty's are just an explicit acknowledgement that NO efforts at immigration control will be undertaken.

Illegal immigration is the result of a history of silly xenophobic quotas, a moronic application process and ALJs with a backlog that staggers the imagination.

No, it's a function and right of any nation to control it's borders and immigration. And if American immigration policy is solely a history of xenophobia as you allege, how in the world did so many Irish Catholics, Jews, Chinese, Vietnamese, Haitians, Cubans, etc. find themselves here.

You are about 30 years out of date with your criticism of American immigration policy. The quota system that favored white Europeans is long dead.

We need the immigrants to do the work that the native-born refuse to do. Markets decide wages and those markets should be open; if people commit crimes, we should prosecute the criminals not the class (gee, this sounds familiar); illegal immigrants contribue far more than they take.

No, nearly every study shows that illegal immigratants are a net drain on the American taxpayer. They cost far more in services than they provide in benefits.

As for the jobs they take, many former well paying skilled jobs in construction, meat-packing, auto mechanics, and other fields are now sub-minimum wage. There are pleanty of illegals operating their own businesses in the US as well. You need to get past the image of Caesar Chavez. Not every illegal picks grapes for a living.

There is no objection to the illegal immigration of Russians, Poles or Irish (Irish were main beneficiaries of the '86 reform). The objection is contained to those of Latino ancestry. Why is that?

No, you are exactly wrong about the effect of the '86 reform. It decreased the levels of immigration of Europeans to the US. And I haven't noticed 15-20 MILLION Russian, Polish, or Irish immigrants living here in the US illegally.

I think at this point you need to start explaining why you seem to believe that hispanics don't have to obey US laws. Your proposition that a persons obligation to obey the law should be based on skin color smacks of anti-white racisim. :)

As for nobody objecting to Russians, Poles or Irish immigration, pleanty of folks in NYC would like to undo the past that saw so many Russian mob figures settle in their area. And I haven't heard of too many machete attacks here in Alexandria, VA being committed by illegal Irish immigrants.

Lawyer Admits Client's Guilt in MS-13 Killing of Pregnant Teen
Updated: Tuesday, Apr. 12, 2005 - 5:58 AM

By MATTHEW BARAKAT
Associated Press Writer

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) - Four members of the notorious MS-13 street gang who are facing the death penalty for killing a pregnant teenager they believed was a snitch offered starkly different defenses Monday as their trial began.

The lawyer for one of the four defendants essentially admitted his client's guilt and told the jury that trying to understand the backward code of honor among members of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, is fruitless.

"What you're going to hear is a story of absolute tragedy: lost children, lost souls, how lives can be so tragically mishandled," said James Clark, attorney for Ismael Juarez Cisneros, who admitted his role to police and implicated his co-defendants. "Please don't expect to make any sense of it."

Meanwhile, the lawyer for the man who allegedly masterminded from his jail cell the murder of Brenda Paz told the jury that at least a dozen other gang members wanted Paz dead because it was known that she was cooperating with police even as she stayed connected to her old friends from MS-13.

"A lot of people had a problem with Ms. Paz," said Jerome Aquino, lawyer for Denis Rivera. "Ms. Paz played a dangerous game. She played the police for sure. ... She never really left the gang."

According to prosecutors, Paz joined MS-13 at age 14 and the gang became her surrogate family; her pleasant demeanor earned her the nickname "Smiley."

She also was Rivera's former girlfriend, but at some point she became disenchanted with her life in the gang and agreed to testify against Rivera at an upcoming murder trial and reveal what she knew about MS-13, said prosecutor Ronald Walutes.

Police came from as far as California and Texas to hear what Paz could offer in the way of testimony against MS-13 members, and Paz entered the federal Witness Protection Program.

Aquino said Paz was a member of the powerful Normandy clique within MS-13 and that a threat assessment by the FBI listed 12 others beside Rivera who might wish to do her harm.

Paz did poorly in the Witness Protection Program. The FBI moved her from a safe house in Silver Spring, Md., to Philadelphia, Kansas City and finally to Minneapolis, but Paz maintained her contacts with MS-13 members and eventually left witness protection to rejoin MS-13 in northern Virginia, Walutes said.

"Brenda Paz was pregnant, lonely and she missed her family - MS-13," Walutes said.

Meanwhile, Walutes said Rivera was becoming increasingly suspicious of his former girlfriend, and he eventually enlisted trusted gang members to kill her. He first sought to have a young gang member encourage Paz to have an abortion "so his conscience would be clear if he decides to have her killed," Walutes said.

The indictment states that gang members voted in a Fairfax hotel room on July 12, 2003 to proceed with Paz's murder. She was killed the next day by Cisneros and two other defendants, Oscar Antonio Grande and Oscar Garcia-Orellana, Walutes said.

Paz's body was found several days later in rural Shenandoah County. Walutes said Paz was lured to her death under the guise of a fishing trip on the banks of the Shenandoah River.

"Oscar Garcia-Orellana put a rope around her throat and held her, while the other two stabbed and stabbed and stabbed," Walutes said.

Walutes said there is no physical evidence or eyewitnesses connecting the defendants to the murder scene. But other gang members will testify, and prosecutors will play tapes of coded phone conversations between Rivera and others in which they say he planned the murder.

Aquino said Rivera and the other defendants make an easy scapegoat for Paz's murder and said authorities brought the charges as a way to escape blame for their own failure to protect Paz once she entered witness protection.

Garcia's lawyer, Frank Salvato, said his client is innocent and had no reason to want Paz killed. Grande's lawyer, Luis Restrepo, urged the jury to look closely at the evidence and not to simply convict because of the defendants' gang membership.

The trial, which is being held in U.S. District Court in Alexandria because Paz was a federal witness, takes place as authorities are seeking to get a handle on the region's gang problem. In recent months, several high-profile gang attacks across suburban northern Virginia - including several machete attacks in which victims have had fingers severed from their hands - have alarmed the community.

None of the defendants disputed his membership in MS-13 and several acknowledged it openly. A large "MS" tattoo was visible on Grande's neck.

The trial could last up to two months if the defendants are convicted, which would trigger a penalty phase to determine if the death penalty is warranted. Death penalty experts said it is very rare, though not unprecedented, for a single jury to hear four capital cases simultaneously.

http://wtop.com/index.php?sid=502844&nid=25
 
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It helped. Notice how the crossings increased by an estimated 30% in the weeks after Bush's announcement prior to the last election of his latest amnesty program.

Amnesty's are fine, AFTER the border is sealed. Without a deadly serious effort at sealing the border periodic amnesty's are just an explicit acknowledgement that NO efforts at immigration control will be undertaken.

It should not go unnoticed that news about the current level of border control is treated as headline news in the press marketed to Spanish language residents.
 
Tejon,
Neither your Irish nor the Poles were illegally entering the US in the volume that's been coming in from your southern neigbor..

I won't deny there's some shameful racism out there within 'white' America.
I've been on the receiving end several times (and fully expect to taste it again this May, when I visit relatives in IL and TX). Heck, I see some of it on this very thread!

You can't deny that there is a significant issue with regard to illegal immigration and border security, directly linkable to Mejico and its citizens, regardless of the migrants' skin color ---and Mejicanos do span the color spectrum, no?

It's simple really... your government has to decide whether it prefers legal immigrants, or illegal ones. That decided, all the many doctors, nurses, engineers and all-around workingfolk all over the world who want to migrate to the US can thus determine whether to keep waiting in line for a legitimte work/immigration visa... or take a quick flight to Mejico and walk North.



H. Cortes-Jorge Jr.
 
I won't deny there's some shameful racism out there within 'white' America.
I've been on the receiving end several times (and fully expect to taste it again this May, when I visit relatives in IL and TX). Heck, I see some of it on this very thread



If the White people our so racist why do so many Non-Whites want to come to this country? Been nice when my people came from Europe if school classes were taught in their language. They had to learn English. Would have been nice for them when they went for a job and didn't get hired or want to rent a place but they wouldn't rent to them they could have cried discrimination. Been nice if they got the free medical care and had all the welfare programs. They had to make it on their own no special classes in school no welfare programs. Yes their is discrimination in this country but as I look at it all of it is directed against the White People.
 
Re-read with me carefully, now.
there's some shameful racism out there within 'white' America.
The above is not, I assure you, the same as saying that all of 'white' America is racist.
I precisely used 'white' between apostrophes, because I do not believe that 'racial' distinctions
are at all relevant to the topic at hand. Illegal immigration unfairly affects
all legal immigrants and their descendants, regardless of appearance.

If 'color' is so crucial as one participant to this thread would have us think....
then tell me, kind THR denizens...

Is this young woman 'white'? 'yellow'? 'brown'? :
sump_kab.jpg


How about this young woman in double exposure, is she 'brown'? 'yellow'? 'black'?:
(sorry, can't find a less risque' photo of this Miss KH)
sump_krh.jpg


Or how about this young woman, is she 'brown'? 'yellow'? 'white'? 'black'?:
sump_jom.jpg


Do any attempts to categorize these young women by 'color' really matter?
Irrelevant to their legal status, I say... and it is precisely the legal status
of individuals entering and working in the United States that is the issue at hand.
Irrelevant as well, to the negative effect that widespread illegal immigration
may or my not have on these ladies' own legal status and livelihood.

As for comments fervently wishing English literacy of new immigrants...
I might desire the same of at least one purportive American posting on this thread,
if I were as much a devotee to the mastery of English as he presents himself to be.


Tragic really.
No... hilarious.
No wait... uhmm... yeah!
:D :D :D
 
Horge, I am about as white as you can get and still be on the color spectrum. I am also a shameless racist; as for the ladies you posted, I freely admit that I judge them on their looks....

:D

el tejon, we white people hardly need to be racist when so many of these groups are self-identified by their racial and national background. I have never referred to myself as Euro-American, ever. That in itself is a huge distinction between those who are race and identity obsessed and "Americans".
 
First, leave the future Mrs. Tejon out of this. *heart beats*

Second, Cool, the impact of the '86 amnesty is still with us? Immigration reform 19 years ago caused increased immigration now? If so, then hooray, let's do it again.

So many of the groups you describe came here because they disregarded immigration laws. Violating immigration law is an old American tradition.

THRland teems with the descendants of illegal immigrants, e.g., Paper Sons and those whose families were on the wrong side of the English Civil War and not allowed to immigrate, corruption of the blood, seizure of estates, whole 9 yards. Heck THR even has members from a state that gets its nickname from illegal immigration.

Yes, the quota system is history and I said it was. However, it still serves to show the motives of the anti-immigration movement. What was true then is true now.

No efforts at gun, er, border control will be taken. No efforts at border control can be taken. The thought that we can prevent people from coming here to work is absurd.

What we can do is to legalize the inevitable. Get out in front on this and attempt some sort of filtering process just as has been proposed.

horge, no, in terms of percentages from years ago that is incorrect. Far more Catholic Europeans were coming in then than Mexicans now. Race is relevant as there is no concern over illegal immigration from nations populated by Caucasians. No, in fact, the white people are not a problem at all and we certainly don't post articles about crimes committed by the native born.

Legal or illegal we need people who work. Native Americans are addicted to the easy life and will not work. Part of the obesity problem here but that's another thread.
 
I sure hope the people of Arizona vote McCain out over this!

His State is currently the National focus on the border issue. HIS VOTERS are currently assisting the Border Patrol in this issue.

Yet here he is, 1700 miles away, teaming up with a Democrat of the worst kind, to draft a bill that will HELP illegals stay in the US!!

Talk about being out of touch with your constituents!!

:fire:
 
I sure hope the people of Arizona vote McCain out over this!

His State is currently the National focus on the border issue. HIS VOTERS are currently assisting the Border Patrol in this issue.

Yet here he is, 1700 miles away, teaming up with a Democrat of the worst kind, to draft a bill that will HELP illegals stay in the US!!

Talk about being out of touch with your constituents!!

I am not so sure about all that. If you look at it closely, it may ultimately cause the federal budget to pay for Arizona's problems.
 
All of my ancestors that I can document came here through Ellis Island, legally, as did most of the immigrants in past generations. Others of my ancestors came here through the Bering Strait, but I don't have good documentation on them.

If you are upset that they are illegal, this this bill will help them get legal. What is wrong with that?
How about an amnesty program for all murderers and rapists?

Exactly how many and which of our laws do you want to pee on?
 
Well, I agree entirely with you on the gun laws. But I disagree with you on the immigration laws ... not vehemently, but I do disagree. And you have a good point about the difference between mala in se and mala prohibita, but I wonder if illegal entry is really bad only because it is prohibited, or is it prohibited because it is bad?

Every country has a right and some might say a duty to control its borders. As others have pointed out, there is no other country with the lax attitude that the US has toward illegal immigration. I can't see any good in an amnesty prgram for invaders, nor in relaxing the laws about immigration.
 
Infidel, O.K., I'll give it a try. :D Immigration is bad because those with anti-Catholic, anti-non-Northwest European attitudes said it was. Actually immigration has always been hated by tyrants and would-be tyrants throughout U.S. history. Heck, just look at the Declaration of Indpendence.

Amnesty allows those who want to become legal to become legal. It brings them out into the open and allows them to be more productive. Further, ICE can go hunt bad boys instead of someone who "invaded" the U.S. to do work that Americans believe is beneath us. I.e., amnesty allows us to focus limited resources.

Relaxing the immigration constraints will allow the U.S. employers to utilize people who want to work harder than native-born Americans who believe they have a God-given right to cable television and a government check. This helps the GDP and creates citizens who know more about their country than the native-born.

Now, the important stuff, horge, have you given the young women my phone number yet?
 
creates citizens who know more about their country than the native-born.

How will an amnesty program do that? I wasn't aware that Amnesty would magically make them fluent in English, grant them at least a US High School education, and make them Good Strong Honest Country Loving Americans.
 
Legal or illegal we need people who work. Native Americans are addicted to the easy life and will not work. Part of the obesity problem here but that's another thread.

El Tejon, I am willing two listen to your legal arguments and think about the points you make.

But that comment is beyond obnoxious.
 
sherm, you don't see it among the native-born? :what: :confused:

Obnoxious? No, I would say dead on (studies show how fat Americans are, I guess I am giving a reason). Perhaps a little hard, but that's what this country needs.

Of course, considering my gig, perhaps I'm in a little better position to see it every single day. Just consider it a symptom of the attitude that politicians spout as a legally-protected right.
 
El Tejon, where are you headed here? You seem to have tossed your legal mind for a stroll in the swamp.

Here are some more of your words of wisdom:

This helps the GDP and creates citizens who know more about their country than the native-born.
 
I don't buy the anti-NWEuro assertion, at all. The statement strikes me as substantially more "racist" than the anti-Mexican statements that pop up in these discussions. It is an historical fact that North America was settled and populated by Mid- and Northern- Europeans (ignoring the people who already lived here). That is mostly due to the places explored and claimed by various European countries, which correlates with latitude and climate.

I don't know enough tyrants to know how they feel about immigration. However, I think most of them also don't like rape and murder, robbery and general disregard of the law (unless they and their family are doing it). That doesn't make rape, murder, robbery, and general disregard of the law desirable, it just shows that tyrants can be right once in a while about some things. Arguments against any particular principle by trying to associate it with any particular group of bad guys is specious, even if the association is true, which is not evident in this case.

I agree entirely that too many "Americans who believe they have a God-given right to cable television and a government check", but I disagree that that attitude is more prevalent among natives than among illegal immigrants. Rather, I think that it is the other way around. That is based on my own experience.

I do not believe that illegal immigrants "want to work harder" then natives or legal immigrants. My experience is to the contrary.

Not do I buy the unsupported and almost certainly erroneous assertion that illegal immigrants "know more about their country than the native-born", assuming the the phrase "their country" was meant to apply to the country that they illegally entered. Everything that I have seen, read, or heard is contrary to that. In fact, it is my experience that illegal immigrants look upon their country of origin as "their country", including the illegal Canadian immigrants whom I have known.

And I disagree with your assertion that illegal aliens "add to the GDP". I maintain that they are a net drain on the economy, on the society, and on our country.

I maintain that a lax immigration policy, allowing illegals to enter at will and not controlling the borders, is suicidal for the society and for the country. Just look what it did for the Indians.
 
sherm, no stroll, I walk directly into the truth. Studies have shown that new citizens know far more about the United States than native-born citizens, more Spartan than the Spartans.

I'll put one of THR's new citizens against a random, native-born student in Chicago's public schools any day. :D
 
Studies have shown that new citizens know far more about the United States than native-born citizens,
"New citizens" implies Legal Immigrants, not illegal aliens.

And whose studies?
 
Infidel, not an assertion. It's historical fact. The immigration quotas were written against those who were not from Northwestern Europe.

Those granted amnesty would be new citizens as well.

Don't need to know about all tyrants. Perhaps just the tyrant King George III. Remember studying the Declaration of Independence in high skul? What was King Jorge's attitude toward immigration into the U.S.?

If you believe illegal immigrants are a drain, if I showed you studies that they were not, would that convince you. Is your opposition a utilitarian concern, or is it something else, like you allude to in the Indian example??? :confused:
 
If you are upset that they are illegal, this this bill will help them get legal. What is wrong with that?
The bill will take the crime already comitted and make it legal. Not the same by a long shot as making the situation better.

I'm all for a much easier process to legally immigrate, and a guest worker program as well. But no-one who is here illegally should even be eligible. If they want to do it right, they can GO HOME and start over legally.
 
Purely one Old Fart's opinion: I want the illegals gone. I don't want any more immigration at all, unless the newcomer pays somebody to leave.

Why?

Simple: I feel crowded. Too many people are now in the US; maybeso 100 million too many.

And I ain't so sure but that I'm about half-serious...

Art
 
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