Md State Police and Walmart abuse of power

[Master Blaster]

Walmart might want to consider the following thoughts.

Keeping a log of personal information on customers when this log is not required by law is a seriously bad idea from a liability standpoint.

If a bad guy buys ammo from them they record it in the log book, and then said bad guy goes and uses it to commit a crime the victims will have documented evidence of walmarts contributory negligence, and then since they will be the deep pocket they will get sued.

If same badguy buys ammo from walmart without being logged in the book, it would be much harder if not impossible to prove that they contributed to the unfortunate situation and hence they could not easily be sued.

IF walmart has a employee steal or copy the log book and then use a reverse lookup directory on the phone numbers, walmart will be liable for providing a directory of where to steal a gun to a crimminal. If some of their customers experience breakins after buying ammo, the perp is caught and says he got the info from their logbook, they will be liable to all of the victims.

From Walmarts selfish money based corporate perspective there is absolutely no positive liability aspect to the logbook, and a whole bunch of negative ones.

 

[Norton]

This is exactly the issue I related here regarding my experience at the Cambridge, Wal-Mart. Please read Phil Lee's excellent analysis there as well.

The clerk asked for my ID and I put it out there for the the usual cursory examination. When he pulled out "the book" I told him to forget it.

For the just-don't-shop-at-WalMart crowd, this is a bigger issue than just shop/don't shop at Wal-Mart. It is about the MSP using a retailer...any retailer...to collect a defacto registry of legal gun owners in this state and ther doing it without any legal mandate to do so.

I've been gone for the better part of the last 3 weeks and need to get off of my butt and call the manager and explain to him the substance of my conversation with the attorney general's office.

 

[EasternShore]

Norton I wonder if it is worth a call to Addie? She has been very supportive of us and her district is Wicomico and Dorchester counties, i.e. Parts of Salisbury and all of Cambridge. I think I'll all her office tomorrow, Mike in the mean time, Dave's has been low on stock but I am egarly awaiting Dick's, I guess Gander will hae to do, but if you wish to pursue this further I will gladly help spread the word around Salisbury, we still a small town and we can still be heard.

 

[alan]

One post is headed Something Is Not Kosher.

Might one go so far as to describe that as A MASTERPIECE OF UNDERSTATREMENT?

 

[Andras]

Internet is my friend, and I don't even pay sales taxes...

 

[Mike128]

I called the Officer but didn't get through. I'll try tomorrow.

Norton, I think a call and letter to the person in charge of project Exile and Walmart Corporation is also important. We need to stop this now before they establish a precedence of registaring ammo.

Eastern Shore, Wink's in Princess Anne is a good mom and pop store with better prices than Dave's. Give them a shot. Have you checked with any other Walmarts in the area recently?

To all, thanks for the help and please write Walmart Corporation. Let them know this is why you won't shop there. Let those you do buy ammunition from know you bought there because they don't have a registry. That is just as important to keep this from spreading.

 

[Norton]

Internet is my friend, and I don't even pay sales taxes...

If I could find a source of 9mm for the same price as Wal-Mart, I'd do that. Bass Pro runs a pretty good sale once and a while but you have to catch it when it's hot.

 

[Norton]

Norton I wonder if it is worth a call to Addie?

You'll have to help me out there.....I don't know my Eastern Shore folks beyond Pipkin and Smiegel.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Buy the Entertainment book when you can, it has 2 coupons for Dicks that are good for $15-50 depending on how much stuff you buy. $15 off of $75 of ammo when it's on sale knocks it down to better than I could get anywhere. Last case of .45acp came in under $8.50 out the door.

I also need to drop Walmart a line about this. Maybe, I'll hit the store near me tomorrow while in uniform and see how it goes. Good material for the letter if they jerk me around.

Norton- I was wondering where you were :-0

 

[Andras]

If I could find a source of 9mm for the same price as Wal-Mart, I'd do that. Bass Pro runs a pretty good sale once and a while but you have to catch it when it's hot.

I don't buy 9mm, could you tell me how much you're paying? I found 50rnd WWB 9mm for $6.50 online, other brands for less.

 

[alan]

Re Project Exile, whether it be policy, law or the wet dream of some bureaucrat in or outside the NRA, the words of President Lyndon Johnson come to mind. He so spoke on the general subject of legislation. The following is not an exact quote.

When looking at some legislative proposal, the possibly good ends obtained from the proper operation of the legislation are secondary. The most important thing to examine is the potential harm done by or from the improper enforcement of legislation, once enacted.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I'll write a letter to Walmart tomorrow. I'm also calling the trooper in charge tomorrow when he gets back. Anybody else I should call?

Yes. Your state senator, your state representative, the Governor, and the state Attorney General. All of them should be made aware of the situation and informed that it is unacceptable for the state police to be making up rules as they go along, and coercing businesses into doing things not provided for in statute.

 

[Norton]

I don't buy 9mm, could you tell me how much you're paying?

Bass Pro usually has it on sale for $5.88/50 which is Wally World's usual shelf price.

However, as I said.....for all of us it's not really the issue of price or even the fact that it's WalMart. The issue is that the State of MD is using a private business to collect information on a legal purchase without a legal mandate.

Next on their list? Cross referencing of alcohol against DWI convictions? Fatty foods against a database of those with known heart conditions? Ice cream and diabetics?

This is really a bigger concern than firearms.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Maryland really isn't conducive to purchasing either guns or ammunition readily especially if you are not from the local area. It's much harder to find gunshops around here than what I am used to back in Washington State. Marylanders tend to give up their rights too easily. In one area I know of there is only one Gunshop and he is way over priced on pistols like you wouldn't believe. Walmart is about the only place to purchase Ammo around here. All this stems from the city of Baltimore. It is a city of over 500,000 which competes for the highest murder rate of any city over 500,000 people. 47 to 48 per 100,000. New York has 7 per 100,000. It's black on black crime which is a complete different subculture unto itself that the entire constituants of Maryland must answer to through various forms of restrictive laws. Criminals can conceal carry but you the lawful citizen cannot. . :banghead:

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Well, I stopped into my local Wal-Mart today to attempt to buy ammo and see if I get the record book pulled out on me. I wanted first hand experience before I sent a letter to management.

After 10 minutes of standing in the "sporting goods" dept I had to leave, appt I had to keep.

Since they no longer sell guns I rarely see anyone in the "sporting goods" dept and buying ammo there is not worth the hassle even if they don't want to try the book BS on me. I know for many it's about the only option. However, it's just not worth the hassle for me anymore.

 

[alan]

Lest Marylanders feel that they are the only citizens with State Police problems, here in Pennsylvania, what are currently described as the PSP (Pennsylvania State Police), formerly known as The Coal and Iron Cops are problematic also, as with the following.

Despite existing Federal Privacy Law, they insist that gun purchasers provide their Social Security Number. Re IDENTITY THEFT, and the joy and excitment that it brings, one wonders as to the security of PSP data bases.

Additionally, the PSP maintains an ILLEGAL REGISTRY of handgun purchasers and their purchases. I have no idea as to what, if anything might be going on in their minds re ammunition purchases.

 

[K-Romulus]

Wasn't there just a lawsuit on that?

Despite existing Federal Privacy Law, they insist that gun purchasers provide their Social Security Number. Re IDENTITY THEFT, and the joy and excitment that it brings, one wonders as to the security of PSP data bases.

I got to find that case . . . I think it was in Atlanta . . .

 

[alan]

K-Romulus:

There was "a case" such as you mentioned, and US District Court in the Philadelphia area ruled for the complainant, meaning they ruled AGAINST the PSP, or Coal and Iron Cops, whichever you prefer.

It is my understanding, based on conversation with FOAC Exec. Director, Kim Stolfer that the thing stands as follows. The PSP have taken the position that the District Court ruling only applies to the particulaar inibvidual who brought suit. I interpret this, and this is solely MY INTERPRETATION ONLY, that essentially the PSP are saying that "it is our thing, our table, our house, our rules". Additionally, I would conclude that they are also telling the citizery that if they don't like it, lump it, unless they come up with the cash to fund additional legal action. I suppose that the U.S. District Court could tell the PSP where to get off, but so far as I know, such comment from the court has not been forthcoming.

For details on the court case, you might check the FOAC web site, which is foac.org, I think. Actually, with a anti gun character like Fast Eddie Rendel in the governor's office, did you expect another result?

 

[alan]

K-Romulus Quote:
Despite existing Federal Privacy Law, they insist that gun purchasers provide their Social Security Number. Re IDENTITY THEFT, and the joy and excitment that it brings, one wonders as to the security of PSP data bases.



I got to find that case . . . I think it was in Atlanta . . .

K:

In the event that you are still looking for "the case", the following might help.

In U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Pennsylvania
Michael Stollenwerk v. Jeffrey B. Miller
Civil Action 04-5510

If you cannot find what you seek, e-mail me. There are 2 PDF Documents covering this case. One is a single page, the other is 17 or 18 pages, which you might find of interest.

Best

 

[learn2shoot]

Where to Buy

I would never buy from a place which required me to sign a log book. I once went into a Dick's in White Marsh MD the manager told me it was a loss prevention policy. I asked him to explain but he wasn't sure how it benefited loss prevention. I left without the ammo. He thanked me for being civil and noted that some other customers had thrown boxes of ammo at him. I wrote a letter to Dick's corp, but never heard back. I feel it is my (our) responsibility to call to task any business who tries to pull stuff like this. The more we call and write the more policies which will be reveresed, and the less likely they will be to try it again. I went back a few months later to see if the policy had been reversed, it had not, I complained and perpared to leave and the clerk mentioned that he could not find the log book and winked. I bought ammo.

Possible Scenario- a new sporting good manager at Wal Mart says to the store Manager - the MSP came in today and asked me to keep an ammo log I think it is a good idea, I might save a life. Manager who was educated by us - "NO WAY, don't even consider it!! last time I tried that my phone was ringing off the hook from the home office and customers, besides it would not work anyways...."

dodaloo dodaloo dodaloo dodaloo dodaloo (think of Wayne's World)

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Well, if you Marylanders think you have it tough, Wal-Mart's entire (S.F.) Bay (Area) District recently dropped all ammunition. At my local store, they filled in where the shotgun shells used to go with golf equipment, and the cartridges in the island counter have been replaced with the random under-counter junk that employees use. They still carry folding knives, however.

 

[nico]

My local Wal Mart doesn't even sell guns or ammo anymore. When I stopped by last week, their former ammo cabinet was full of pellet guns. Dick's and Sports Authority don't sell anything related to firearms either.

I guess I'll be buying my next batch of 9mm online.

 

[madmattmd]

Since reading the earlier posts on this subject, I've made occasional ammo purchases from WM to check to see if the "policy" has migrated up to the gun rights capital of Maryland, Carroll County.

I recently purchased .40 S&W from WalMarts in Westminster as well as in Hampstead. Since I have "prematurely" gray hair, they didn't even look at my license.

So, at this point, no problem. I will continue to buy the majority of my ammo from gunshops.

Matt