Meth Laws: More Security Theatre

[pax]

This issue really steams me every time I think about it.

I have a larger-than-average family (five kids). Most of the kids, like me, have chronic allergies. And like kids everywhere, they trade colds with their friends all winter long. We live quite a ways out of town. My husband works nights and is usually the one who picks up groceries simply because it saves gas money.

The upshot is that it is illegal for my family to purchase or even to possess enough Sudafed to last us for a single week when everyone is sick. My husband cannot usually purchase the cold medicine for us at the 24-hour WalMart, because the pharmacy window closes when the sun goes down. So ever since that stupid law went into effect, I end up having to make a special, separate trip to town just to pick up snotty nose medicine.

These stupid laws don't make any difference at all to my neighbor's recreational habits. But they sure as @$%^ affect my life, my family, and my finances.

And don't even get me started about unintended consequences. Someone here -- I'm not going to scroll up and get the name because frankly I despise the opinion so much that I'd prefer not to remember who said it! -- suggested that pseudoephedrine should just go back to being a prescription drug. Great. So instead of buying a $5 box of pills, I'd have to buy five trips to the doctor (do the math: that's a $20 co-pay for each kid if you've got insurance; or $100 or so per kid if you don't), plus that same $5 for the actual medicine. Not to mention the time off work and, oh yeah, that trip down into town to the pharmacy because you simply cannot buy a prescription med from the corner market. Think how many kids in poor families will end up with ruptured ear drums from non-bacterial snotty noses, if using simple snot-nose medicine gets to be that expensive.

pax

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Agreed. If anything, we could say that Meth is a result of the more or less successful prosecution of the drug war against cocaine. I've read the effects list, and I'd rather see legalized (and regulated for safety) cocaine.

Yes. Meth is cheaper to make and it can be synthesized inside the US; no need for smuggling. The more they have clamped down on coke the more we have meth.

Way to go!

On the topic of Prohibition:

We tried it for alcohol. It didn't work and it was flaunted by people at all levels of society. It did result in a lot of wealthy and powerful criminal organizations and lots of new gun laws and other anti-freedom laws, but it didn't make alcohol go away.

On the topic of the drug war:

We've been wasting trillions of dollars on it for the past thirty years and drugs are just as available as ever. If we keep on doing it for another ten or twenty or thrity years, is it going to miraculously start working? How much more money do we need to spend and how many of our freedoms are we going to sacrifice just to prevent people from doing something which is either not harmful or is harmful only to themselves?

 

[JMusic]

It was me Pax and again we disagree. We seem to be close on opinions yet so far away. This time I am not dated to the subject. I run a Pharmacuetical packaging plant and have had the DEA in our plant to ok the storage of bulk Ephedra. I am telling you right now it is there intention to outlaw this drug. If it does not get back into the hands of the medical professionals. Your right though, the financial burden was not considered.
True story, 5 years ago when the DEA came in to audit they had a cartoon in hand showing how many Sudifeds it took to make a gram of Meth. They also had printed up a pamphlet. His statement was that Meth and ephedra was the worst thing that ever happened to this country and that there were alternatives to ephedra. Now what do you think will happen if the DEA puts this on their schedule list? I am not any happier than you are about this but instead of bitching about it at least I am throughing out alternatives to where you don't have to go from store to store to get enough to help your condition.
Jim

 

[pax]

JMusic ~

A $500 dollar alternative to a $5 box of pills is no alternative.

pax

 

[JMusic]

Thats fine Pax and I agree. But do you think the government is going to make this better for you? Part of the issue as I see it is it will eventialy move to the pharmacies anyway. As regulations go into play to link this nationaly and they will, the mom and pop stories will say forget it. I don't know if you occasionaly use this product or if it is regular. Those of us who use this regular have an issue with having to constantly go back. IN my case in this area it is already moving to larger chains and pharmacies thus limiting availablility. I know you had a tragic event with this and I can understand the emotion but reason is what will prevail. An OTC is supposedly available without consulting "anyone". Don't you see this is no longer an OTC. If we as a whole do not come up with a solution then the Government will do it for us. So you don't like my prescription idea. You have a larger audience than I could ever hope to have. Solutions and contacting your local Reps is what is going to change this. Why not help. This is an unusual occurance not even the Doctors I've talked to no what to say. Maybe you get one scrip a year to purchase hell I don't know I just know that every month I try a different script without the same results and the supply and availability of what I used, a Tylenol product is harder and harder to find. Maybe you don't see the same thing. Again we will agree to disagree.
Have a good day.
Jim

 

[22-rimfire]

Pax; Here where there is a meth problem, I also feel that a person should be able to buy more than a single box (package) of Sudafed or whatever brand suits your needs. They require ID and I have no problem providing this information as I have no intention of providing these pills to anyone outside my immediate family.

Jmusic, I believe you asked for statistics that the DEA is being sucessful in reducing the numbers of meth labs. Right now they seem to be in the mode of advertising how big of a problem it is rather than providing statistics that the changes in TN law have been effective. Maybe you could enlighten me with your statistics. I am comfortable that the source materials are being gradually dried up in the necessary quantities without a great deal of expense and risk to the buyers. Nothing is perfect in law enforcement. Busts are actually down here, but I don't know if it is a result of budgets or fewer labs.

I have talked to folks that had labs and were busted. I have no personal experience with the drug other than what they have told me. The law has made it much more difficult for production of meth in the illegal clandestine labs. I hear that alot of the drug (not the components) is coming from Mexico these days too. You go into Walmart and buy the various components together, and I guarantee that it will be noticed by the legal authorities.

The addiction is a terrible thing and the penalties for production are now very very strong. I think the penalties are out of wack with many of the more serious crimes, take murder for example. No statistics, but a gut feeling and general observations. I feel the same way about DUI's as the penalties are overkill.

 

[JMusic]

I don't have the stats either but I am meeting with the DEA this Tuesday. If this web site is still going I'll relay what I find.

In my past life I worked Narcotics for a Meg unit which was a series of local Police and Sheriff office assiciates from different counties. PCP was the biggie at the time but you netted about everything from pot to heroin. We went on weekly raids usually starting on Wednesday or Thursday working through the weekend. Though we made many arrests I don't think we put a dent in the drug problem. If there is a demand there will be a supply. But that's for a different thread.
Jim

 

[tyme]

Prohibition didn't work before, but it might work if we just try harder.

And furthermore, it might work because it's not constitutional... everyone knows unconstitutional laws work better.

 

[patrol120]

Sorry guys,. this law WORKS. Oklahom ahs long been the "leader" in meth lab seizures. We were also the first to enact the psuedoephedrine laws, known as the "Nik Green Law" here. Our lab seizures and general meth arrests have decreased Dramtically. As in, over 50% in the two years since the passage of the law.

I am a law enforcement officer, and I see the benfits. I have a family, and I see the inconvenience. While it is a pain to have to do these things, it does work, unlike many silly drug and alcohol laws.

I worry more about the drunk drivers on our roads than the meth heads.

You, sir, need to reallt reevaluate your worries. Drunk driving is a BIG problem, but no bigger than methamphetamine use, abuse, and manufacturing.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

Sorry guys,. this law WORKS. Oklahom ahs long been the "leader" in meth lab seizures. We were also the first to enact the psuedoephedrine laws, known as the "Nik Green Law" here. Our lab seizures and general meth arrests have decreased Dramtically. As in, over 50% in the two years since the passage of the law.

And here we see the root of the problem, folks!

As every manager knows, whether or not you achieve "success" depends largely on how you define "success". A business man looking evaluating his business looks at the balance sheet and cash flow results. An oncologist treating cancer looks at well-defined measures like five-year survival rate, three-year relapse rate, etc. If a business man looked at "number of customers" instead of those accounting measures, he would have a different view of success. In fact one of the big factors in the DotCom boom was that people switched from conventional accounting measures of success (cash flow and balance sheet) to other measures, such as number of customers, so they could have a business that was losing $1mil/week but if it had 1mil customers, it was a success. That didn't last too long.

Going back to Patrol120's post: Most law enforcement officers, from the DEA on down, measure Drug War success in terms of number of arrests, kilograms seized, number of labs busted, dollar value of assets seized, number of convictions, etc. That's all great, but is that a valid measure of success? I think not. I think that's like a businessman looking at number of customers or market share instead of accounting.

What is a valid measure of success in the Drug War? I think the only two factors that have any meaning are number of users and drug availability. It's hard to get a precise reading of the number of users but you can get some indications from surveys and OD ER admissions. Price is the other great metric to look at. Price is controled by supply and demand. If there isn't evidence that the demand has changed significantly, then the price level is an EXCELLENT single-number metric for evaluating the WoD.

And if we use this valid metric for evaluating the WoD, what do we find? Prices have dropped steadily since the WoD began. Number of users has probably not changed significantly. Drugs are more available than ever. The WoD, by this metric, is working less than ever.

It's a failure.

When something is a failure, there are two possible ways to go: One is to do a lot more of what wasn't working. For example, if you have a bacterial infection and your antibiotic isn't working, maybe it will work by upping the dose. The other alternative is to do something different: Maybe switch antibiotics or some other entirely different therapy, or maybe even re-evaluate the problem.

Right now we are in the "upping the dose" stage. We've been in that stage for the past twenty years or so. We now have about 2mil people living in prison, mostly on drug charges, the largest prison population the world has ever seen. And yet... drugs are more available than ever. It isn't working.

Where do we go from here? Build prisons for another 2mil people? Start shooting people who possess drugs?

Or do we switch course?

Going back to Oklahoma specifically, Patrol120, so you're busting more labs, but has that had any effect on meth prices? Is meth any less available than it was before?

 

[patrol120]

Actually, from all accounts, meth is much harder to obtain than it was before. What is available is available at much loswer quanitites, and much higher prices. This comes from those we arrest, or deal with, who are involved.

 

[sm]

pax I am as steamed about this stupid infringment as you are - and I am single.

Standing Wolf, tyme and others bring out Constitutional points I am concerned with as well.

Now I have assisted with LEO, UCs in things, I have seen what goes on. I recall years and years ago finding a trip wire to keep folks out of a "pot operation". The smells of meth lab are distinct...

I have also been in the main OR and seen the results. IN that hosptial part of my life seen the Cocaine addicted babies born and die. Been steamrolled over by a 95# scrawny teenager. I went down to tackle ( to protect others) and she took me and two others down - PCP is amazing stuff.

Now, what gets me? All this 'postioning' and 'posturing" to get a Nat'l Health Care system.

I trust .gov about as far as I can spit. So - keep Wagging the Dog, and the masses whimper and whine, give up more liberties in exchange for Freedom.

Freedom of Drugs, Terror, Guns, The Boogy Man or whatever.

Creative Marketing to give a feel good feeling something is being done.

We have Laws, have had for years. We have Jails. LEOs put their lives on the line...
Liberal Lawyering and forgetting to dot an "i' allows these drug folks to be back out on the street.

The officer finally finishes a 12 hr shift in 18 hrs. The Perp is back on the street before his next shift. In the meantime pax is making a snotty nose run and has to take risks to keep a child from getting a bursted eardrum. The Fire Dept has to put out another fire at a Motel rented, next to your relatives, or the abandoned house down the way.

Story goes from a Mentor of mine...

In a small rural town many many years ago, a man raped a girl. There was witnesses, caught stone cold in the act. Sheriff and Deputies with assistance of civilians , chased this rapist to a small country cabin. He would not come out. They went in. Pried a board up and put his testicals under the board. Tossed him a rusty butcher knife - set the cabin ablaze. He had a choice - either way Justice was going to be done.

There was not a rape for a long long time in that community - or neighboring communities.

Yes I understand due process and innocent until proven guilty. Seems to me a fellow having witnesses seeing his pecker where it does not belong, under threat of a knife - and the Meth lab in progress cooking - kind of hard to deny some wrong act is going on. Take the BGs out, permanently. Send a message, and instead of the Jails being overcrowded - let it add to the morgues overcrowding.

I look at the whole package, not just the BGs, the LEO, the mom's, ,mine, and the fact no matter what law is passed, folks are going to find away around it.

Hey, I gave one of my boxes of sinus meds to someone in need. Hurricane victims, concerned about getting an infection. I have given classmates at college, heck even instructors a dosage, and they me. It happens, you run out. These laws to protect me they shove where the sun don't shine. I still contend it is part of a bigger plan to control folks, socialized meds is one part of this.

 

[JMusic]

All good points. Patrol 120 don't take this wrong I still consider myself part of the "Brotherhood" Measuring arrests is not the best way to tell you are gaining in the War. We made the same mistake in the 70's on pot and guess what they simply took it inside and started Hydroponics. WE measured arrests on PCP and low and behold they simply went to crystal meth and coke. We once concentrated on the big dealers and then during the Reagan Admin. we worked the users. I don't know what the answer is but it is a simple issue of supply and demand. Until the public decides it does not want or need these illicit drugs they will continue and so will the war. I believe adding another group to the fray is futile, and another way to alienate the public.
Jim

 

[Beren]

You, sir, need to reallt reevaluate your worries. Drunk driving is a BIG problem, but no bigger than methamphetamine use, abuse, and manufacturing.

Hmm. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration states:

"17,419 persons were killed in alcohol-related crashes in 2002, 15,019 of which involved a driver or non-occupant with blood alcohol content of 0.08 or greater."

Interestingly, I cannot locate any straight data on meth-related mortality. Most of the published stats are now "emergency room visits." From the data I've looked at, there were a couple of thousand meth-related deaths in 2002.

Meth use ranks far, far behind drunk driving in terms of annual mortality.

Both meth use and drunk driving combined rank FAR behind obesity as a killer of Americans. Shall we pass laws forbidding the consumption of junk food or excess calories? Think of the children! 365,000 Americans died in 2002 where obesity was the main factor!

 

[patrol120]

I am sure the deaths that be directly linked to meth use are somehwhat low. However, I would imagine that when you factor in the blood poisonings, the suicides, the murders, the car accidents, the AIDS, the Hepatitis, etc that can be directly linked to the methamphetimine fad, the numbers would be much more relative.

let me state that I am not, in any way, attempting to make the drunk driving issue lesser in any way. It is a terrible epidemic.

 

[Beren]

the blood poisonings, the suicides, the murders, the car accidents, the AIDS, the Hepatitis

Much of which is more directly attributable to the criminalization of meth use or poor personal decisions, rather than meth use itself.

I'm much more concerned about behavior which causes direct harm to others. Let's get the intoxicated drivers off the streets, for example, regardless of what they used to become intoxicated. Let's get children out of the homes of parents too intoxicated and addicted to properly care for them, whether it's alcohol, H, or meth.

 

[Crosshair]

You want to know something scary. It is now easier to get illegal drugs than it is to get cold pills. *** is with that? I can go to any number of people I know from high school (I wouldn't call them friends, I really don't like them.) and would be able to get anything I want. I don't, but I know that with a few phone calls I could get any illegal drug I wanted. I hardly call that an effective "War on Drugs" This latest insanity doesn't solve a darn thing.

 

[patrol120]

Much of which is more directly attributable to the criminalization of meth use or poor personal decisions, rather than meth use itself.

So, by your rationalization, the deaths caused by alcohol, such as the murders, the beatings, the deaths due to auto accident, the suicides, the spousal batteries, the thefts, etc, do not happen, since this "drug" is legal?

 

[Beren]

So, by your rationalization, the deaths caused by alcohol, such as the murders, the beatings, the deaths due to auto accident, the suicides, the spousal batteries, the thefts, etc, do not happen, since this "drug" is legal?

By my rationalization, we would suffer from more alcohol-inspired murder, beatings, deaths, suicides, batteries, and thefts if alcohol were criminalized. History bears out this assumption.

 

[Chrontius]

Reducing access to large volumes of ephridine tabulates has reduced the meth lab problem. You can still buy your tabulates for colds and so forth, you just can't buy five packs at a time.

The labs send out runners and give them $100 (+expenses) for the day to hit stores for supplies. It is really quite amazing to what lengths these people go to to get the ingredients. Meth is a terrible drug that is extremely addictive. In my state, you'll get 8 years in prison for the first offense (manufacture for sale). The combination of ingredients is also considered a "lab".

Of course by this definition every home in America which includes a barbecue a cat and a car is a meth lab. Save for cat litter, I've got all that in my garage/pantry, and I know half a dozen people with the litter, too. :banghead:

Just thought I'd throw this in for fun:
"A puritan is a person who is haunted by the fear that someone
somewhere is having fun"

 

[JMusic]

I said earlier in this thread I would report back after my meeting today with the DEA. These agents are charged with the proper enforcement of licit drugs. Questin I poised was " Has the regulation of OTC psuedoephedrine drugs helped with the Meth problem?" Their first comment was "We do not have stats but arrests are down so yes it is working. Sudofed and like compounds in tablet/capsule form was the bad boy in their opinion. One thing they did say was the same products in liquid form are not under this regulation fore it is much more difficult to break down. I've never looked nor do I know if they make a liquid just for sinus issues. Maybe if true the Pharm companies will soon come out with something good in liquids or Gelcaps. As a side note my wife just returned from the Pharmacy with some Sudafed. It was behind the counter but no name was required or signature? Go figure.
Jim

 

[doger5]

I grew up in the 80's with just say no. It was cheaper to make up a slogan than to do actual funding. I've been hoping for middle eastern and south east Asian laws on drug use. Take them out and shoot them. But because of the Constitution and Bill of rights it won't happen.

We supply prisoners with weights to bulk up. I have a friend who is afraid of her son and he's spent time in jail. She has a restraining order on him. He's a meth user and the police have said we can't do anything until he does something or we catch him in the act.:banghead:

 

[ceetee]

Of course by this definition every home in America which includes a barbecue a cat and a car is a meth lab. Save for cat litter, I've got all that in my garage/pantry, and I know half a dozen people with the litter, too. :banghead:

Ya beat me to it. Between the kitchen and the garage, I have all of those items... And I don't even have a cat. (Just a leaky lawnmower.)

 

[JMusic]

El TacoGrande I don't know how many here actually understand how insightful your statement is. I was an active LEO when model airplane glue was determined to be a plague. The solution was to put it behind the counter and limit purchase to 3 tubes. We (LE) thought that we had really put a dent into the issue. My wife being an emergency room RN saw no difference in the people showing up there with this OD problem. There was no real statistical measurements across all the disiplines that dealt with this problem. As you said you cannot run a buisness by feel, unfortunately that is how the war on drugs has been conducted.
Jim

 

[ArmedBear]

Agreed. If anything, we could say that Meth is a result of the more or less successful prosecution of the drug war against cocaine. I've read the effects list, and I'd rather see legalized (and regulated for safety) cocaine.

Dingdingdingding!!!

+10

Meth (and Crack) would NOT EXIST were it not for a tighter supply of cocaine. Meth is a crappy drug, made as a low-budget substitute for cocaine.

Let people do coke if they want, and meth goes away. Plain and simple.

And I'm (personally) very anti-drug. But I also oppose laws that merely "protect people from themselves" while making law enforcement a morally-ambiguous profession. Catching robbers and rapists is a noble thing to do; sending stupid kids to prison for growing some pot plants must take its emotional toll on those who have to do it.

Actually, I've spoken with a judge or two, and it does exact a toll.

This must have an impact on how we all view the law.