Michigan/Snowmoblie

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If it's posted, don't carry. If not, make the educated guess.

Just remember......


First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked
 
^^^^ Ok so not the same as MN. Bummer!!

If MI is the same as some other states, MN is one of them, the rules don't carry the weight of law. In MN it is a petty misdemeanor which is not a crime! The fine here is $27 for the first offense.

We don't have to worry about how much is sold where. We can carry anywhere a sign is not posted. And drink up to .04 and still carry.

I am not condoning the breaking of the law. Just understand that in grey areas (e.g.. 49 or 51% of sales alcohol) that the laws/rules have lenient punishments because they are not always black and white.
 
Yeah, we don't really have signs or anything. At least none that I've ever seen. You really do just have to guess.

I do work at a bar, as a cook. So we do have a kitchen, but the sales from our kitchen don't even come close to the sales from our liquor. I guess working in the bars for so long, just walking in to one I'd realize how much of what they sold.
 
I pay more attention to the Michigan blood alcohol limit of .02 while carrying than what side of 51% establishment's revenue is from.
 
It is a dilemma, to be sure.
If you let it be, or are inescapably, intrinsically compelled by this opinion, then yes. Otherwise, no dilemma at all. I've never been able to grasp, understand, or accept how there is a "right" to not have someone else do or possess something in your presence that you have no knowledge of and/or which you suffer no harm from. This might as well be a right to have people not believe something or think something or mumble something under their breath that you don't like. Or not pass gas on your property, or wear purple underwear. This is such an ephemeral concept of a "right" as to have utterly no meaning at all.

If we don't carry when asked not to by those who prefer that nobody be carrying a gun, even though we all know criminals don't obey laws or respect rights, we are respecting those folks' rights.
When pushed to accept such an ephemeral and merit-less concept of a "right" I will freely state that some RIGHTS absolutely take precedence over other "rights." Your RIGHT to self-defense wins over my "right" to (not even sure exactly how to phrase it) ... not be in the presence of some object I have no knowledge about or contact with.

If we carry anyway, we're doing what we think is justifiable even though it is also, no matter how you slice it, going against the rights of those who desire to create and enjoy an environment where there are no guns.
But there is no reality in this created environment. It is meaningless and vapid, unless they're enforcing that "right" via metal detectors and running around naked inside a walled compound, they have no real hold on the reality they're claiming to try to create. For their pragmatic purposes, me coming in with 37 guns secreted about my person is just as good as me entering disarmed. The benefit they receive from the enjoyment of their utopia is not lessened by my presence.

From the perspective of individual rights, it is beside the point that crooks will have guns no matter what the law says and no matter how the policy of the property owner reads.
From the perspective of the restricting individual's claimed "rights" ...ok. From the perspective of my right to self-preservation, "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better make darned sure that's really where he is."

It's quite ironic to me that some of us see these place as so desirable that we are willing to commit a property rights violation in order to patronize them, and yet so dangerous that we won't disarm before we enter.
And so dangerous? Tell me again about all the "safe" places in this world where we can go and know that we're secure from harm. Now recall that we're talking about bars and restaurants and let's juxtapose those notions.

As I said, this theory doesn't pass the sniff test, for me.
 
Sam, you're ignoring the other option--don't go there. You have no inherent right to go onto private property anyway. Your presence there is a privilege afforded by the owner who expects his rules to be observed as a condition of extending you that privilege.

This is not a theory--it's a fact. It is morally correct and completely rational.
 
One needs to sell multiple amounts of food to realize the profit made from booze.

I reject your logic. If the establishment sells food, it's a restaurant. Your criteria can be applied anywhere, and it doesn't work.

I'll stand by my assertion.
 
I appreciate all options and thoughts on this subject and not to downplay anything but for those that have not been in the northwoods the option of not going there isn't always ( mostly not) an option. When you ride a sled it is from gas station to gas station and if you want to eat or get warm I would say 90% or better of those places serve. I was hoping there were others on herethathave had to deal with this situation. When it comes that time I guess the guns will just stay at home in the safe. Thanks again for allthe input.
 
Hello, interesting posts! I don't snowmobile, but many years ago, I was in UP deer hunting, we would go into town occasionally to visit bar..I never was much of a drinker. After we got to know the owner & patrons, we discussed O.C. our .22 rimfire revolvers into bar..but quickly thought it a bad idea. That night though..nearly every male in that bar had a hunting knife on his belt...some big uns!
 
Look...MI law is kinda strange. If you have a CPL, you CAN carry in a bar, regardless of % of sales but MUST O.C. It's exploiting the difference between two laws, but it's the way it works. The bar owner may ask you to leave, in which case you must leave, but I've never been asked to leave. If in doubt about the % of the joint's sales, just play it safe and O.C.
 
It's not the fact that they serve, it's how much of their sales are from alcohol. If a diner serves beer, it's completely different than a bar selling food.

There's no need to be unarmed, but you may have to adjust your carry method. As Clipper said, just open carry.
 
it's how much of their sales are from alcohol.
I have no responsibility to examine the books on every place I consider entering to see if they're selling more booze than foor (or is it more profit from booze/food? or more gross sales?)

We just got the silly and unenforceable law thrown out here in OH, where I was previously somehow considered responsible for determining if a given location did or didn't have a class"D" permit. And places that did NOT sell booze for consumption on-site (grocery stores) would put up the class"D" gunbuster sign, further confusing anyone who was willing to comply with that particular law.

Make your own ethical choice, dab102999 ... or call ahead and try to get a straight answer out of the drone who answers the phone, regarding what they make more money on.
 
While your wife goes in to get warm, use the facilities and get some corn chitlins take-out, you wait outside and write your name in the snow.
 
I would just call the establishments owner and get permission prior to my trip. That way if LEO tries to interfere you can reference them to the owner of the establishment. Private property is just that, and LEO need permission from the owner, so it is a win,win.:D
 
The issue here isn't one of rights. It's not about proprietors posting a "no guns" sign, or other customers' expectations. It's about the LAW in Michigan. I have no problem carrying in a facility posted as "no gun" simply because the owner likes it that way. But I won't carry in a place where it is illegal to do so. Big difference. A gun owner needs to find out, FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT, which establishments are 51% and which are not. Their view in the matter is what counts. Not a P&L or an owner's view. This is really pretty simple. Just ask.
 
It's quite ironic to me that some of us see these place as so desirable that we are willing to commit a property rights violation in order to patronize them, and yet so dangerous that we won't disarm before we enter.
This point seems to go over the heads of many who want to cherry-pick what they will do and not do. Why would you go to a place whose owner you have no respect for by disobeying his wishes? It is HIS place HE gets to set the rules - if you do not like them, go somewhere else - it really IS that simple
 
This point seems to go over the heads of many who want to cherry-pick what they will do and not do. Why would you go to a place whose owner you have no respect for by disobeying his wishes? It is HIS place HE gets to set the rules - if you do not like them, go somewhere else - it really IS that simple
Again, though, that's a philosophical answer, not a legal one. And it isn't a philosophy that every "good" person shares, or even comprehends.
 
I understand why, as an organization, THR moderators would not advocate that anybody ever break the law.

I might point out however, that the National Socialist Party depended very heavilly on all good citizens obeying the law and no citizen could presume to judge for themselves whether or not any law was moral or immoral.

Yet somehow, today, we celebrate the lawbreakers as heroes and have declared the law keepers to be villians.
 
There are few and far between places to stop on the trails in the UP. Last time we did a trip up that way, I was carrying my concealed handgun.

To be safe, we did the ol' flip flop, you go in, I go in, etc. With the one outside keeping an eye on the gear and the guns.

I had no interest in playing the 50/50 game or, being in some bar in the middle of nowhere unarmed.

Your mileage may vary.
 
I might point out however, that the National Socialist Party depended very heavilly on all good citizens obeying the law


I might point out that the United States of America depends very heavily on all good citizens obeying the law.....so your point is what? That we should all just obey the laws we think are convenient for us personally? Ain't that kinda how the criminal mind works?

In Wisconsin we can CWC in any place that serves liquor as long as we don't drink........works for me and those I go to bars with. Basically, CCW and you are the designated driver. I fish the U.P. several times a year and generally take a CWC firearm with me. I have been told by resort owners and bar owners that altho the chances of being caught in a no-carry bar is slight, it ain't worth the risk. Besides the penalties I listed before, your firearm is also confiscated. I tend to believe them more so than keyboard commandos. I also ride Dirt Bike on the numerous ORV/snowmobile trails in Gogebic, Iron and Ontonagon Counties. Believe me, the majority of places to stop, even when in a legitimate town(and there ain't many of them), make their money selling booze. The Native American Casinos up there are also off limits to CWC. Folks can rationalize and make all the assertions they want, and they are more than welcome to take the risk themselves. If you want to push the envelope and believe that the "grey area" will protect you from prosecution, go for it. Just don't suggest to others to do the same.
 
OR

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Go with the older way our military had of dealing with a "problem".

"dont ask,dont tell"

So ignoring laws one doesn't like or go along with is the answer.

No wonder this world is in the shape its in.
 
In my recent Michigan ccw class this was discussed. Its really not that hard to figure out most of the time. Corner bar that also has a grill and sells a few burgers, probably what the op is asking about,- no carry. Applebees or tgi friday type place- you should be ok. It is a judgement call somewhat but if you actually used your weapon you would have bigger things to worry about.
 
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