Miculek says: stop sending the wrong message with open carry activism

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Well, honestly, I don't want to "guide" the open carry movement at all. What I want is for people to deal with open carry idiots like they do with so many other idiots and not make this some kind of issue that "needs" more legislation or guidance.
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Be prepared to be ignored completely. They will discount anything you have to say.
 
Who's this we? You got a mouse in your pocket?


From my experiences in life, guys who go out of their way to be obnoxious enjoy it. And they won't be guided, led, encouraged or endure any attempt otherwise to alter their behavior. This is a fad, a phase, and it'll pass like all fads do. If it doesn't, we'll see more and more business posted no guns, and obnoxious jerks like these will find themselves isolated and alone.
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Yes, let's discount any possibility of talking with them. After all, they're complete idiots without brains. Never mind that they understand their right to keep and bear arms in Texas and spent the time researching the law.

Sheesh...we are our own worst enemies.
 
Joe Demko's point should not be ignored (especially for those of you who seem to wish to harken back to "the good old days:"
I grew up in a rural area in the 1960's and 70's. Vehicles with guns in window-mount racks were more common then. Their disappearance has more to do with prevention of theft than it does with guns being stigmatized, I'd say. One did occasionally see people out walking around with rifles back then. One still does, in the same context, today. Drive any of the back rural roads in Western Pennsylvania during the hunting seasons and you'll see people walking around with rifles, or shotguns, or archery tackle. Even Amish people.
It has never, in my lifetime, been common for people to just be out strolling around town, going into eateries and other places of business while toting long arms. I've never seen any old news reels, or photographs, that indicate it ever was. Any old-timey stuff with guns in the picture inevitably seems to have deceased game animals in the frame, too.
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Even in my community, during deer season, had some knucklehead walked into one of our local cafes carrying a military rifle (M1 Garand/Carbine, M-14, M-16), UNSLUNG, folks would not have approved. While the sight of a pack of teens walking the railroad tracks with their .22 rifles didn't alarm folk, there was a norm. There still is.
 
ATLDave said:
Yes, I remember it. And why did it still not keep CFA's executive from backing down? Because of money, just like the Chipotle matter. If you force a business to choose between money and something else, it will almost always choose money. The OC morons put Chipotle in that position, and Chipotle made the predictable choice.
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Well if two pinheads can make a major impact for all gun folk then what do we really have, an illusion?
 
tomrkba said:
Again, people can po-po them all they want, but pro-gun rights people have ZERO ability to stop them. NONE. ZILCH. ZIP. NADA.

Therefore, the best response is to GUIDE them by working with them in constructive ways. Otherwise, they will just ignore their critics and do what they want regardless of any attempt to shame them. Promoting legislation against it only cuts our own throats, so it's our only viable option.
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The people that carried the long guns in Chipolte did not do it for advancement of rights. They did not do it to protect their rights.

They did it completely to get attention. They did it for selfish reasons. They did it because they are immature and ignorant.

If you think they did it for any reason other that wanting it to be about them, then you are really have issues understanding how things work
 
huntsman said:
Well if two pinheads can make a major impact for all gun folk then what do we really have, an illusion?
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Apparently. Just as those folks that ask "what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand?" when it comes to their 2nd Amendment rights, but then are quick to tell others that they should not practice OC and exercise theirs. This is not an OC thing....this is a "being responsible" thing.
 
SAM1911,

In response to your comment way back about "knee-jerk reaction" I realize my views on this subject are a distinct minority on this particular forum. I really don't have a position one way or the other as I lack enough information for a informed choice.

The late humorist Will Rogers said "All I know is what I read in the newspaper." All I know is what little bit has been reported by the media. Of course most of us should know not to distrust the media but instead we allow ourselves to be baited by them.

I feel gun owners. Republicans and Conservatives can learn a lot from the Democrats and Liberals. When a Democrat or Liberal does something controversial, even possibly illegal, they close ranks and protect and support that person.

Republicans, Conservatives, gun owners are just the opposite. Let someone say or do anything that the media and Libs don't like they quickly abandon that person and throw him under the bus. Most recent was look how fast they abandoned Bundy when he made his salvery comments.

I'll refrain from any further posts as to avoid high jacking the thread.
 
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BSA1, be careful about conflating gun rights and other political views. There are plenty of pro-gun Democrats and some anti-gun Republicans. There's nothing inherently left or right about gun rights.
 
Yes, but like with the Bundy situation what could I possibly have to gain by defending people that completely terrified a bunch of citizens that might have a chance to vote on 2A rights later? If I went to my anti-2A friends and said "but you don't get it, those guys were actually very progressive!" do you think they'd react in a positive way? No! I think we need to realize that being 2A friendly is not just a blanket "anything guns is okay by me" and more tactical application of rhetoric is needed.
 
Mr Greene, that was from quite some time ago, before California eliminated open unloaded carry completely because of what "activists" did at Starbucks and other places. Now there is only CCW in California, which is one reason, I believe, for recent 9th Circuit victories for CCW permit issuance.
That's where you win, the legislative chamber and the courtroom, not the dining room.
 
Other social movements that have been successful in the US have had broad support of the media. The pro gun movement in the US for the most part does not have the support of the media. You can't expect most of the media to portray in a good light two guys carrying long guns in a business. There is a general bias against guns in the media that the pro gun movement must deal with and overcome.

Most people just go through life without realizing that some people around them are legally carrying guns. When the media portrays guns in a bad way, that makes the majority that does not care one way or the other for guns to often dislike guns.
 
The people that carried the long guns in Chipolte did not do it for advancement of rights. They did not do it to protect their rights.

They did it completely to get attention. They did it for selfish reasons. They did it because they are immature and ignorant.

If you think they did it for any reason other that wanting it to be about them, then you are really have issues understanding how things work
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It's great to know that you have telepathy and know exactly what was going on in their minds.
 
Step one in getting all of us on the same page here might be for somebody to clearly and concisely articulate why anybody, let alone Neckbeard and Kushh, should find it prudent to carry a TAPCOed out SKS into a suburban USA restaurant. I've been doing this gun activist thing a while now, so I'm familiar with all our side's kewel sound bytes. Just between us gun nuts now, whatever the rights involved may be, just what is the point of open carrying a rifle? Anybody who answers "Because I can!" wins a no-prize with clusters for not answering the question but feeling like he just had to say something anyway.
 
huntsman said:
Well if two pinheads can make a major impact for all gun folk then what do we really have, an illusion?
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That's entirely possible -- illusions or delusions, at least within the ranks of some so-called RKBA "activists."

Perhaps too many people lead insular, asocial lives; or they mix with only like minded people; or their social interaction is mostly in cyberspace. But it seems that some of us have little appreciation for, or understanding of, how they are viewed by others and the sorts of responses their actions are likely to have on real people in the real world.

As I've said before, I find it very discouraging that so many in the RKBA community fail to recognize the importance of positively influencing public opinion or to have any real clue about how to go about doing that.

During the course of my career I've had a pretty fair amount of experience working with business clients who needed to be able to influence public perception, understand how to make advertising effective and find the best ways to effectively communicate their messages.

When a lot was at stake, they didn't just guess or assume that their audiences would think the ways they did or have the same values and perceptions. They consulted with psychologists and others who have studied human motivation and perception and beliefs. They thoroughly analyzed the demographics of the audiences and tried to understand what they cared about, what they were scared of, what made them happy or feel secure, what they believed and didn't believe.

They also tested their conclusions with surveys and focus groups. They paid attention to what was happening and made adjustments in their messages and techniques if things weren't working the way they wanted them to.

We in the RKBA community need to stop dismissing as emotional or unreachable or unreasonable those of our neighbors, co-workers, the people in our community, etc., who don't share our positions . We need more of them on our side. We need more of those who we can't completely win over to at least be more neutral. And to do so, we need to start trying to understand them and tailor our messages to be accessible to them given their interests, values and concerns.
 
Joe Demko said:
Anybody who answers "Because I can!" wins a no-prize with clusters for not answering the question but feeling like he just had to say something anyway.
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Well, that is exactly what Delcampo (the one with the SKS) said when asked why he did it.
 
Joe Demko said:
Step one in getting all of us on the same page here might be for somebody to clearly and concisely articulate why anybody, let alone Neckbeard and Kushh, should find it prudent to carry a TAPCOed out SKS into a suburban USA restaurant. I've been doing this gun activist thing a while now, so I'm familiar with all our side's kewel sound bytes. Just between us gun nuts now, whatever the rights involved may be, just what is the point of open carrying a rifle? Anybody who answers "Because I can!" wins a no-prize with clusters for not answering the question but feeling like he just had to say something anyway.
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Rifles are far more effective than pistols, as it happens.
 
So...Chipotle is a high-risk environment where the greater effectiveness of the TAPCOed out SKS could mean the difference between life and death? This sounds like something from "Golgo-13 and the Search for the Perfect Patrol Rifle."
 
Joe Demko said:
So...Chipotle is a high-risk environment where the greater effectiveness of the TAPCOed out SKS could mean the difference between life and death? This sounds like something from "Golgo-13 and the Search for the Perfect Patrol Rifle."
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You are, of course, correct. This is why it is not a big deal that Chipotle took an anti-gun stance. It's so safe there, nobody would EVER need a gun.
 
Au contraire. It is a big deal that a national chain is now anti because of two cartoon characters. It scarcely matters, though, whether it was because they are attention whores or because they are utterly unable to judge realistic threat levels. I don't know about Neckbeard, but Kushh owns a handgun that I suspect would have sufficed as long as he did his part...and all without panicking the rubes!
 
Joe Demko said:
Au contraire. It is a big deal that a national chain is now anti because of two cartoon characters.
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I guess I needed to put /sarcasm after that statement

Joe Demko said:
It scarcely matters, though, whether it was because they are attention whores or because they are utterly unable to judge realistic threat levels. I don't know about Neckbeard, but Kushh owns a handgun that I suspect would have sufficed as long as he did his part...and all without panicking the rubes!
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*A rifle is more effective than a handgun.

*We obviously think (know) that violent crime can happen at Chipotle, same as anywhere else, since we care about carrying guns there.

If you use logic and combine the two above statements...

You asked why, there is a reason ^, even if you (or anybody else, including me) doesn't like it
 
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