Mil-Spec vs. Non- Mil-Spec

[Sky]

Yes shoot the thing; enjoy as many others have. Call Bushmaster and the parts you are thinking about purchasing or having as spares ask a Tec about compatibility. Get your answers and prices then check around and see if you can find your parts cheaper at a different vendor. Good hunting...

 

[Quentin]

My buddy got a C-15 in 2008 and it has worked well. It does use a standard BCG, FCG, LPK, charging handle, barrel, handguards, pistol grip, etc. As has been said the receiver extension is commercial diameter so needs that size for aftermarket stocks. Only real difference is the composite receivers. I really didn't think it would hold up but so far it has.

It does sound funny for a guy 6'8" using a tiny C-15 - how about an AR-10?

 

[Tmilburn]

Yeah, from the guys I have spoken to that ACTUALLY own one or have actually HELD one, I have heard pretty good reviews so thats good news had a few bashers talk about how the gun was questionable quality or how it was plastic. But as they say people with bad things to say tend to copy one another, and there are many gun snobs reluctant to new technology. Look at the glock when it first came out. But overall I ignore the ignorance and shoot the snot out of it when i can. Pretty good gun with a warranty and I spent very little on it. So the people that talk let them talk. Thanks for the advice about the BCG and all on your buddy's AR overall pretty happy with my purchase so far.

Also, I didnt post the title of this thread as "tell me how questionable my choice was" or "how I made a bad one" I just asked a question about mil-spec vs. non-mil-spec, and with the help of a few of the posts on here I think I got it figured out.

 

[Tmilburn]

And Yeah it does look kind of funny, but my bank account thanks me when i but ammo. I am looking into a .308 in the future but not right now. On the other hand if i wear some baggy pants, i could probably concela the thing. HAHA

 

[Mags]

Tmilburn noone has bashed your gun all folks have said is that it is a new design and unproven. That's all!

 

[Tmilburn]

well then if thats what was contained in the posts then thank you guys..... and ill let others read what was written and see what they think. I guess preception of comments is all up to the reader. Thanks again

 

[greyling22]

I carried my "mil spec" ar around the woods for a few hours a while back and really wished I had been carrying a carbon 15. I really missed the light weight, and the ones I personally know of have held up fine. As far as parts interchange go, you may have some problems fitting a standard upper on a carbon lower, and visa versa, but once you get past that most of the parts should interchange.

Think of it this way, you're bushmaster, you're owned by bean counters at Cerberus. You, along with dpms, remington, are no buying parts in bulk to save on cost. You make a zillion ar's at as high a profit margin as possible and have giant parts bins laying around. Why design, fabricate, stock a new special part when you have piles of the standard part laying around if you don't absolutely have to.

 

[RP88]

Some "mil spec" features are worth paying for chrome bolt carrier, chromed barrel, properly staked gas key, but others are of dubious value -- Parkerizing under the front sight base.

Blind obedience to "mil spec" is how the taxpayers end up buying $400 toilet seats and $600 hammers.

I'd agree with you on that.

But, cutting corners on a weapon that can be the deciding factor between life and death is where the mil-spec features are very important.

And for the civilian market, it is a huge tip on who to buy from; the people who ask for a little more cash in return for a product of superb quality that they went the extra few miles to make compared to your common-standard market AR.

And to use your example: doing something as simple as parkerizing the ENTIRE barrel before putting the front sight base on is not exactly something that adds like $80 to the manufacturing process. It's a lazy way to do something. It's a type of corner-cutting that can lead to rust. It's poor foresight; even though it is easier to put on before parking the barrel, it will be much harder to take it off without doing some damage once it rusts over under there.

This is the kind of bottom-line way of doing things that puts bottom-line ARs way below the tier of your BCMs, your Colts, your DDs, your Noveskes, etc.

Sure, some of these corner cuts are negligible; batch-testing bolts to guns that aren't being mounted to the tops of MRAPs is a good way to save a few bucks and be price-competitive. No one's AR ever blew up from no park under the base or with different pins. But the main problem is that so many of these manufacturers aren't even price competitive these days anyway; so putting down the extra cash for a mil-spec gun of superior standard and quality is probably the better value anyway.

 

[Tmilburn]

Greyling, Funny you say that I was wondering about just that. However that isnt really breaking point for me I have a .223 and pan on building my next one in maybe a .308 or maybe 6.8 probably a BCM if i can get the parts. I have done some more research and it seems like people mod these just like a s&w or any other ar.... they have their following and it seems like they are a pretty sweet gun for the money.... Since bushy took them over anyway.

 

[BushyGuy]

Bushmaster is one of the best Ar15 makers in the world, dont listen to all those kool aid drinkers who think you should own a Colt or Spikes tactical, i have shot both and seen both abused- Bushmaster held up to its name. Its sad Bushmaster ME plant will soon be turned over to Remington March 31st

Colt does make good rifles but overall not my choice of rifle cuz they have very bad customer service. i had good customer service with Bushmaster ,shot couple Bushmaster rifles , but never a Carbon 15 . it dont need to be mil-spec cuz you aint in the military! Enjoy your gun!

 

[Quentin]

...As far as parts interchange go, you may have some problems fitting a standard upper on a carbon lower, and visa versa, but once you get past that most of the parts should interchange...

Good point, I noticed this too - my ArmaLite upper didn't want to go on my buddy's C-15 lower. We could have forced it but no point and it would have loosened up his fitment for the original receivers. On the other hand his C-15 upper pinned right on my lower. No big deal since this can happen with aluminum receivers as well.

Gotta agree the Bushy is light, under 6 lbs. My ArmaLite is about 7.5 and Daniel Defense is 6.5. You do notice that.

 

[Slamfire]

I am new to the world of AR's and decided to go buy a bushmaster carbon 15 as my first ar (well second but never got to shoot the first). So I came home after getting my gun at gander mountain and began reading how they are not mil-spec. Now I know the basic meaning of mil spec is the metal that parts are made of, staking of gas key, staking of castle nut and such but my question is can I still use aftermarket parts to swap the factory ones on this gun? Such as BCG, Trigger assembly, charging handle and so on. All (helpful) replies welcome. Bushy basher are not however. I dont want to know how poor my gun is and such, just some facts on the topic at hand.

A factory bushmaster is a fine firearm. They are in the hands of military, I would have to do a web search, but Bushmaster has been purchased by foreign militaries, also I think the mercenary Black Water types. I could have sworn the US Army purchased some, I remember seeing a reference to a US military contract. You picked one of the better manufacturers.

You are better off keeping all the factory parts together. There are differences in fit between manufacturers.

As for military spec. Any rifle built to the military technical data package is would be considered “mil spec”. But the military drawings for the M16 date back to the early 60’s. I don’t know if the Army is still the Configuration Manager on the technical data package, or if they turned that over to the contractors, something they have done on most military equipment. Now days mil spec is whatever the contractor decides is military spec, at least at the product level. The military does put out top level requirements, like “it will operate in the rain”, but it is up to the Contractor to figure out how to do that. And as for controlling part specifications, that has been totally turned over to contractors.

Even so, if there are AR parts being made to the 1968 vintage TDP, there have been a lot of process and technology improvements since the Vietnam war.

Just shoot your AR. Don’t spend money on parts that will not work as well as the factory Bushmaster in your factory Bushmaster.

 

[MolleMan]

I was looking over at the bushmaster site and saw that they carry a 1 yr warranty.

Now correct me if i'm wrong (cause i have no idea) but wouldn't typical mid-upper priced AR rifles carry a lifetime warranty kinda like alot of your pistols do?

 

[john5036]

So, in re: to the OP's question...

Mil-spec is not only what the rifle is made of, but also sizing of the parts - CHECK
Standard AR parts will probably work - CHECK

However, if the OP comes across a component that specifies whether it is commercial or mil-spec, what is he supposed to choose? It does not appear that our Bushmaster gurus have answered this question, but rather made references to Bushy manuals/support, which are fine answers too, but does anyone know or have experience with the carbon models, aside from extra comments defending Bushmaster?

Please help the OP out... and me, I'm curious

 

[Tmilburn]

Yes MolleMan, you are correct the mid to upper grade ar's generally do but from what I gather if you call with a complaint bushmaster makes it right no matter what many of those "limited lifetime warranties" you speak of are based on round count, ammo type, shoe sizes, pants size and number of teeth your last born daughter had at 8 months old. Bushmaster seems to just fix it. Also these are generally on much more expensive guns not always but normally.

John, it seems to me that the aftermarket parts are made the same and also the only thing I have found a little off is that the stock is a commercial stock so I would have to order commercial spec not mil spec. Which isn't a huge deal to me because of the aftermarket stocks i like 90 percent give an option.

 

[taliv]

Yeah, from the guys I have spoken to that ACTUALLY own one or have actually HELD one, I have heard pretty good reviews so thats good news had a few bashers talk about how the gun was questionable quality or how it was plastic.

again, my guess is that bushmaster has made some improvements to this gun over the past few years. I say that because a few years ago, they had a reputation for being complete crap (and I certainly still have that opinion of them), but there have been a few threads lately with anecdotal reports that people were happy with them.

I personally know quite a few people who bought them several years ago and I don't know anyone who was happy with it or kept it very long. I don't know anyone who bought one recently. (I would have tried to talk them out of it, if I did)

If you read the archives here, you will find several threads in the same time period started by users having problems (mostly not being able to interchange parts, and malfunctions) with the complete guns: (some samples)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=351341
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=356029

And my own experience with a custom gun I built on a stripped C15 receiver is in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=556945

while I didn't have any malfunctions over the course of 1500 rnds in classes and matches, the receiver did wear out so that the CH wouldn't latch. Of course, Bushamster offered to fix it for free. I retired the gun and haven't shot it in several years. If it hadn't worn out, I would probably have 10k rounds on it by now.

Note that I mentioned I could visibly flex the receiver just with finger pressure (doesn't seem conducive to reliability). But another user reported a rumor that Bushmaster made them thicker in about '08.... more evidence of improvements.
As I said in a previous post, when I handled the complete guns several years ago, there were parts that couldn't be interchanged (not just the receivers) but it appears they may have resolved that problem. I hope so.

 

[Tmilburn]

Hey Taliv, I do now own one and I can dispell the myth about being able to flex the gun with your fingers. I can't find one place on the gun where this even comes close to being possible. I know that Professional Ordinance used to own the C-15 and then bushmaster came out with the carbon 15 and after PO giving them such a bad name they were shunned for a while but it seems now that bushmaster has made some improvements and that they are on the right track. I feel like I have found out what I need to know for the most part but any other helpful tips would be good.

 

[Quentin]

Well I know my buddy's C15 which was bought in late 2008, you can't flex the receivers. I have heard reports about the charging handle wearing out the notch on the upper but that hasn't happened to his either. (But I can see how it would happen.) I know the BCG and FCG are standard since we have swapped them as a test. He wanted a different trigger and no issues installing it.

There is one other issue with Bushmaster, not just the C15 - the front sight isn't milspec height (F-marked FSB) so if you add a standard rear sight you may have to buy Bushmaster's taller front sight post.

 

[Tmilburn]

Hey Quentin, Thanks for actually posting something useful and giving me some first hand expiriences. I really do appreciate it. What kind of trigger did your buddy get for his?

 

[sappnasty]

I don't care what anyone says...Polymer is the new steel. If everyone thinks plastic is suck crap, call Gustav Glock and see what he has to tell you. The billions of dollars he has made and the fact that 80% of ALL law enforcement carries a "plastic" gun says plastic works if correctly used. I personally would love to build a carbon/polymer ar-15....talk about light weight while humping through the woods! Tony, keep it and have fun with it. Tell everyone else to pound sand...lol

 

[taliv]

that might be relevant if the C15 were made from the same material as a Glock. it is not.

btw, AR15s were called plastic guns back in the 1950s ... so you're about 60 years late calling polymer the new steel

 

[Mags]

I just don't see where anyone is bashing on them in this thread. Seems like you guys keep trying to pick a fight. Calling something plastic when it is in fact made of a type of plastic doesn't seem bad to me.

 

[Tmilburn]

Thanks mike.... I just figured I would post up the questions I had in case anyone else needed awnsers to the same question plus im going to start working on my C-15 build shortly and wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into. So far I have gotten a handful of good supported awnsers and a bunch of people that dont really know but copy other negative posts about the bushys..... typical right

 

[Tmilburn]

Okay fine plastic...... good..... I doubt anyone would run infront of it at 10 yds or 100yds..... therefore it serves my pupose. If anyone wants to bash on a gun go look for the high point threads they are PLASTIC guns. Thanks

 

[sappnasty]

Mags, you are absolutely right....It actually suprises me that Talviv continuously trash talks everyones threads....he did it to this one, he's done it to some of mine and I've seen it on others therads as well....especially being that he is supposed to be a "moderator". I think THR needs to rethink their choice in who they select to moderate thier threads. Talviv, Tmilburn asked a simple question...here is MHO, if you are not posting something that is beneficial to the thread or to try and "help" the poster in what he orginally asked for, then keep your dime store comments to yourself. You maybe be rich living high on the hill, but not all of us can be ballers and own only the "best of the best"...if you want to traash talk someone's firearms, then start a thread titled "Hi, I'm talviv and I want to trash talk all of your guns...oh by the way, everything I own is perfect"......Too many negative people on this forum.