KINGMAX
Member
Back in 1911 is was a .45 acp, still works for me, = GLOCK 21 in .45 acp.
Military sidearm question
- Thread starter Belgiboy
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marksman13
Member
As a real life instance of reverting to a sidearm, I offer up my personal story. My platoon was tasked with raidingthe home of a known terrorist. I was the team leader for a four man stack team that entered through the back of the house. I entered a bedroom and was met by a man holding and AK-47. I switchded my M-4 from safe to semi and the slector switch broke off in my hand. I drew my M9 and fired four rounds. All four rounds hit COM and the guy survived!!! This is a true story and I don't know if having a 45 would have improved the situation, but I would feel better slinging a 230 grain chunk of lead down range if that piece of lead has to be completely enclosed in a metal jacket. As a side note, I really do like the Berretta, I only wish it were a 45.
I qualified on the 1911 in Navy OCS in 1978, where we learned to operate and fire it at the range. During my first sea tour 79-81, I was a disbursing officer. When I had to go to the bank (we paid sailors in check or cash and I had over $100K onboard in the safe), I checked a .45 out from the ship's armory and went with one or two sailors similarly equipped, but not specifically security-trained. We had two magazines on the belt, none in the gun, chamber empty. I forget if the mags had 5 rounds or were full.
On the ship's quarterdeck, the Petty Officer Of the Watch (POOW) was similarly armed, but the Officer Of the Deck (OOD) was not. This was a small ship - around 200 people - so we had no professional security force, not even a rated Master-At-Arms. The position was rotational, usually filled by an E6 or E7.
Of course, these were the days before zodiac-riding suicide bombers (USS Cole). I trust force protection is much more robust these days.
BTW, after OCS, I don't recall ever firing the .45 again. It seemed like every time the ship scheduled range time (we had to go up to a range at then NAS Miramar IIRC) something came up, or we got bumped, or we couldn't get the ammo we needed.
I did 20 years in the Navy, but never after that initial sea tour did I have occasion to carry a sidearm, so no experience with the Berettas. I did a later sea tour in the late 80s/early 90s on an aircraft carrier, where we had a USMC detachment for security. oo-RAH!
On the ship's quarterdeck, the Petty Officer Of the Watch (POOW) was similarly armed, but the Officer Of the Deck (OOD) was not. This was a small ship - around 200 people - so we had no professional security force, not even a rated Master-At-Arms. The position was rotational, usually filled by an E6 or E7.
Of course, these were the days before zodiac-riding suicide bombers (USS Cole). I trust force protection is much more robust these days.
BTW, after OCS, I don't recall ever firing the .45 again. It seemed like every time the ship scheduled range time (we had to go up to a range at then NAS Miramar IIRC) something came up, or we got bumped, or we couldn't get the ammo we needed.
I did 20 years in the Navy, but never after that initial sea tour did I have occasion to carry a sidearm, so no experience with the Berettas. I did a later sea tour in the late 80s/early 90s on an aircraft carrier, where we had a USMC detachment for security. oo-RAH!
Silvanus
Member
I don't understand those two things
Why only 5 rounds in a magazine and why not a mag in the pistol?
BADUNAME13
Member
*** were you DOING going through a door with your weapon on safe!?!
I call BS or a I D 10 T problem on this one.
Silvanus: In a 'non war' situation the military is ANAL about EVERY aspect of 'live weapons/ammo.
They don't want you chambering a round till AFTER you need it.... 5 rounds are easier to count keep track of...
It's different now, but you can still see the REMF foot prints all over.... untill you get outside the wire.
MT GUNNY
Member
A vet told a friend of mine he came face to face with enemy,
both drew their pistols at the same time , shot at the same time,
both hit center mass, The vet went on to say the 9mm luger (luger I asume)
Is hanging in the vets home! The vet was using a 45.
both drew their pistols at the same time , shot at the same time,
both hit center mass, The vet went on to say the 9mm luger (luger I asume)
Is hanging in the vets home! The vet was using a 45.
Last edited:
748
member
The Air Force cops at the front gate and any one doing a job where they could have to use their gun keep it loaded with the safty off.
I think they call it type 1 carry.
Then they have type 2 and 3.
I think they call it type 1 carry.
Then they have type 2 and 3.
Victor Romen
Member
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- Dec 26, 2002
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- 94
The U.S. Coast Guard is transitioning to the Sig P229R in 40 S&W for its service pistol (replacing the Beretta). They are used by boarding teams all the time and are not there for show.
When I was in the Army we decided that if you are a Facist a .32acp was good enough for Military use as it is all one really needs for shooting people in the back of the head.
If you are a communist a .30 caliber was plenty good for combat because it works quite well for shooting people in the back of the head.
If you are a gunfighter you will want something bigger,,,,,,
If you are a communist a .30 caliber was plenty good for combat because it works quite well for shooting people in the back of the head.
If you are a gunfighter you will want something bigger,,,,,,
marksman13
Member
Don't know how you train, Nomad, but that's how we do it. Weapon is on safe when moving down hallways, and at the low ready. When you enter the room, weapon goes to your shoulder, and moved from safe to semi. Just because the tactics are different doesn't mean it's BS. It's called preventing friendly fire accidents. Call it what you want. If I ever find myself in Iraq with you, remind me to always keep you in front of me.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Friendly fire will kill you just as dead as enemy fire -- weapons should be unloaded when not immediately needed and kept on safety until on target. And officers and NCOs have a responsibility to see that's how the troops carry them.
BADUNAME13
Member
That's BS, you don't KNOW WHEN it's gonna be needed. (That's why it's called a combat zone.)
-The lack of the 'warrior mindset' is the problem with much of today's military.
TRAINING and trigger control prevent friendly fire. All I know is the Corps would NEVER operate like that. (Look into how 'fingers' turn to flippers' under stress... and the fight or flight responses...) Who is we out of Curiosity?
Vern Humphrey
Member
The command is "Lock and Load" -- and it is the responsibility of officers and NCOs to control the status of the weapons of the men under their leadership.
There are no doubt men here who've killed more than I have -- but I'd say I'm probably above average in that department.
Training and discipline.
The United States Army -- and every unit I ever served with. I commanded A/1-61 Infantry in Viet Nam (and my brigade was part of the 3rd Marine Division -- one of the two Army-Marine divisions to see combat in our history.)
marksman13
Member
"We" are the United States Army. When we are outside the wire, we are locked and loaded. Our weapons are on safe until we are bringing our weapon to bear on our target. It's a simple operation really, and it does prevent NDs. If the Corps does it differently then someone forgot to inform all the Marines that fought beside us in Karbala and Hit. There is no need for your selector switch to be on fire unless you have identified your target and are ready to fire. To move through a building full of civilians and friendlies with your weapon on fire is utterly ridiculous.
This is really getting off topic for this thread. If you want to discuss it further, Nomad, how about starting a thread over in S & T?
This is really getting off topic for this thread. If you want to discuss it further, Nomad, how about starting a thread over in S & T?
BADUNAME13
Member
You answered my Questions, If that's the way ya'll do it... Ok with me.
My appoligies.
(Going into a house... about to shoot... weapons are off safe, I wasn't saying you should walk around 24/7 with weapons off safe. Although I don't think they should be unloaded at ANY time outside the wire.)
(Spent some Time in Hit/Hadetha myself... Sep 04 and Feb/March of 05. When were you there?)
marksman13
Member
I spent Setember 05 through December 05 in that crap hole know as Hit. Of course, the only time our weapons were unloaded was when were cleaning them at Firm Base 1. Never knew when something would jump off around there. I apologize if I misunderstood your post. It sounded like you were running around with your weapon on fire every time you left the wire. We were trained to keep our weapons on safe until we were bringing them to our shoulder. Different strokes for different folks. Were you in 3/1, 3/25?
The answer is to aim better... but mostly to not to worry about whether you are hitting the guy 0.09 inches away from a vital area. That's how a .45 or a .355 magnum parabellum stops someone, by hitting a vital area (heart, major artery, spinal cord, maybe a major bone, etc.) and not because of some mythical creature called stopping power. I've seen many people who took multiple center mass hits from 9mm, .45, 5.56, 7.62 and many other rounds. None were knocked down. If a .45 could knock a man down, then it would knock you down too. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's still a law of physics and the .45 doesn't get around it. So unless the bad guy is a 21 lb bowling pin, don't rely on the mythical creature called knockdown power.
You stop them by taking out a vital organ, vessel, or nerve... it's as simple as that.
Mortech
Member
OK when the SHTF lets see you properly identify where the BG's vitals are , things get really fluid when the lead flies .
5/58th ATC Bat 84'-92'
5/58th ATC Bat 84'-92'
loadedround
Member
I served in SE Asia and had the occasion to carry and use both the 9mm and my own personal 1911A in 45 ACP. I do not wish to rehash old war stories, but will say that FMJ 9mm ammo were POS as a man stopper. The 45 with ball ammo(FMJ) never failed to end the argument. Amen!
mainmech48
Member
Silvanus: It was (is?) done that way due to it being Navy Policy/Regulations. As a simile, this can be be compared with cancer: Nobody can tell you exactly where it comes from but, in most cases, you ignore it at your peril. It was "..The Word", and the Word was God.
When I was 'supernumerary' waiting for my discharge to come through at Great Lakes in 1969, I was assigned the job of escorting prisoners to and from the brig. Regs required that I carry the 1911-A1 I was issued when the duty called for it in the regulation RH flap holster, even though I am left-handed. It came with two magazines, one loaded with five rounds of ancient ball. While actually in-transit, it was to be carried with the loaded mag in the pistol, hammer-down on an empty chamber.
Fortunately, I was also issued a night stick. Even more so, I generally only drew low-level F-ups and never had to resort to either.
When I was 'supernumerary' waiting for my discharge to come through at Great Lakes in 1969, I was assigned the job of escorting prisoners to and from the brig. Regs required that I carry the 1911-A1 I was issued when the duty called for it in the regulation RH flap holster, even though I am left-handed. It came with two magazines, one loaded with five rounds of ancient ball. While actually in-transit, it was to be carried with the loaded mag in the pistol, hammer-down on an empty chamber.
Fortunately, I was also issued a night stick. Even more so, I generally only drew low-level F-ups and never had to resort to either.
FerFAL
Member
This is my safety.
Safety off as soon as the gun leaves the holster on SA firearms, or only used to decock on DA/SA firearms right before you reholster, NEVER leave the safety on on DA/SA firearms. That’s the way I was taught.
I never heard of people going into harm’s way with the safety on and only turning it off when they see the threat, but I suppose there’s a first time for everything.
Hell, I wouldn’t follow that piece of advice no matter what.
When working as a team and you move leaving your friends in your line of fire ( can’t help it sometimes when working 360º), your finger goes out of the trigger guard, barrel points to the floor, perpendicular to the ground, weapon’s frame slightly pressed against the chest: 1) so that you don’t “brush” your team members with your loaded gun 2) Easier to move around in close quarters and confined spaces.
FerFAL
Safety off as soon as the gun leaves the holster on SA firearms, or only used to decock on DA/SA firearms right before you reholster, NEVER leave the safety on on DA/SA firearms. That’s the way I was taught.
I never heard of people going into harm’s way with the safety on and only turning it off when they see the threat, but I suppose there’s a first time for everything.
Hell, I wouldn’t follow that piece of advice no matter what.
When working as a team and you move leaving your friends in your line of fire ( can’t help it sometimes when working 360º), your finger goes out of the trigger guard, barrel points to the floor, perpendicular to the ground, weapon’s frame slightly pressed against the chest: 1) so that you don’t “brush” your team members with your loaded gun 2) Easier to move around in close quarters and confined spaces.
FerFAL
FotoTomas
Member
This will be a bit long winded but covers lots of ground from the original post as well as several follow on comments.
As an Active duty soldier and later National Guardsman I carried the M1911A1 pistol as a 95B MP and as an 11B Automatic rifleman (M60 AND pistol). When I transitioned into 11H as a TOW missile gunner I was again issued the M1911A1 as a personal weapon.
Throughout my Army days the pistol was issued with anywhere from one 5 round magazine to three 7 round magazines. In addition the holster was dependent on the duty and what was in supply.
In Korea as a MP I was issued a open top leather rig with safety strap (right or left hand depending on soldier) and one 5 round magazine. New Provost Marshal came on post and we went to right hand flap M1916 holsters for all with three 5 round magazines and later 7 round magazines.
In NYC with the Armed Forces Police we had issued Don Hume basket weave leather gun belts, open top holsters and gear. During a stint in MPI I was issued a Colt Detective special with 6 rounds of ball ammo and we used whatever holster you could get. Mine was a Bianchi paddle with thumb break.
Later National Guard time and the Flap holster was on my side as a M60 gunner and the M7 chest holster was the rig when I was a TOW missile gunner on the ITV 901.
At no point did Army peacetime doctrine allow for the carrying of a M1911 with the chamber loaded UNLESS you were in combat. That is not to say what actually happened on some tours of duty. Those clearing barrels got their holes for a reason you know! The women MPs and MP Investigators along with Army aviators all had the advantage of a revolver issued to them and usually with full cylinders and a simple trigger pull to make it work. I preferred the revolver to a M1911 for that reason during my army days. Today I understand that the Army and the M9 pistols are often carried with a round chambered and safety on. My Iraq vet co-workers tell me they were issued two 15 round magazines for the Beretta. They put it on safe and chambered a round. The hammer automatically dropped to the DA position and the locked and loaded pistol deposited in the holster.
I have no active or guard time since 1989 and have not been issued the M9 ever. I have however used the Beretta M9 (commercial version), 92FS, 92G and 92D on numerous occasions as a police duty gun and in fact I have a Beretta 92D on my hip as I type this.
Handguns are not routinely needed in the field but there are times when they can be very comforting. I was very happy to have had the ones I did when on duty. I do know that there have been a plethora of after action reports of pistol combat in the sandbox. Several co-workers spent time in Afghanistan, Iraq or both. I was too old and fat to go back in the Guard or else I too would have been there. I have heard the stories but I take more stock in the reports.
Handguns in Iraq for example have been used in greater numbers as primary weapons for house clearing team members and other duties than most any other action. Handguns have absolute advantages in some of those circumstances. Most soldiers I knew wanted one if possible. Except for the tunnel rats in Viet Nam handguns were not so useful in the jungles. Even so they were popular as issued or field pickups.
If I were to go back into military uniform and find myself in Iraq I would opt for a M9 with reliable magazines over the M1911. The modern battlefield has far more scenarios where lots of bullets are better than a few bigger bullets. Handguns are weak pieces of crap compared to combat rifles and a .45 pistol may be slightly better in some ways over a 9mm but it is still a crappy handgun cartridge. Those 9mm europellets have done well in many of those action reports. They excel at penetrating some of the modified armor the bad guys sometimes have as well. Pelvic shots from a 9mm or a .45 seem to be right on the money as far as effectiveness, they both do great. If issued a pistol make mine a Beretta flavored 9.
The bottom line in military circles is a combination of effectiveness and cost. In many cases they are compromised. Even so I think the pistol in military circles is an asset and should be encouraged even though for most it is wasted weight on the belt. If I had my druthers I would select a handgun and cartridge (I favor the .40 GLOCK 22 for that job) as standard for those limited jobs that require a handgun and I would allow individual soldiers to carry personal weapons of their choice in the service caliber. The .40 is a viable compromise that meets the needs of the "lotsabullets" crowd and the "BIG is Better" crowd. The heck with NATO compatibility.
My opinions and worth what you paid for them.
As an Active duty soldier and later National Guardsman I carried the M1911A1 pistol as a 95B MP and as an 11B Automatic rifleman (M60 AND pistol). When I transitioned into 11H as a TOW missile gunner I was again issued the M1911A1 as a personal weapon.
Throughout my Army days the pistol was issued with anywhere from one 5 round magazine to three 7 round magazines. In addition the holster was dependent on the duty and what was in supply.
In Korea as a MP I was issued a open top leather rig with safety strap (right or left hand depending on soldier) and one 5 round magazine. New Provost Marshal came on post and we went to right hand flap M1916 holsters for all with three 5 round magazines and later 7 round magazines.
In NYC with the Armed Forces Police we had issued Don Hume basket weave leather gun belts, open top holsters and gear. During a stint in MPI I was issued a Colt Detective special with 6 rounds of ball ammo and we used whatever holster you could get. Mine was a Bianchi paddle with thumb break.
Later National Guard time and the Flap holster was on my side as a M60 gunner and the M7 chest holster was the rig when I was a TOW missile gunner on the ITV 901.
At no point did Army peacetime doctrine allow for the carrying of a M1911 with the chamber loaded UNLESS you were in combat. That is not to say what actually happened on some tours of duty. Those clearing barrels got their holes for a reason you know!
The women MPs and MP Investigators along with Army aviators all had the advantage of a revolver issued to them and usually with full cylinders and a simple trigger pull to make it work. I preferred the revolver to a M1911 for that reason during my army days. Today I understand that the Army and the M9 pistols are often carried with a round chambered and safety on. My Iraq vet co-workers tell me they were issued two 15 round magazines for the Beretta. They put it on safe and chambered a round. The hammer automatically dropped to the DA position and the locked and loaded pistol deposited in the holster.I have no active or guard time since 1989 and have not been issued the M9 ever. I have however used the Beretta M9 (commercial version), 92FS, 92G and 92D on numerous occasions as a police duty gun and in fact I have a Beretta 92D on my hip as I type this.
Handguns are not routinely needed in the field but there are times when they can be very comforting. I was very happy to have had the ones I did when on duty. I do know that there have been a plethora of after action reports of pistol combat in the sandbox. Several co-workers spent time in Afghanistan, Iraq or both. I was too old and fat to go back in the Guard or else I too would have been there. I have heard the stories but I take more stock in the reports.
Handguns in Iraq for example have been used in greater numbers as primary weapons for house clearing team members and other duties than most any other action. Handguns have absolute advantages in some of those circumstances. Most soldiers I knew wanted one if possible. Except for the tunnel rats in Viet Nam handguns were not so useful in the jungles. Even so they were popular as issued or field pickups.
If I were to go back into military uniform and find myself in Iraq I would opt for a M9 with reliable magazines over the M1911. The modern battlefield has far more scenarios where lots of bullets are better than a few bigger bullets. Handguns are weak pieces of crap compared to combat rifles and a .45 pistol may be slightly better in some ways over a 9mm but it is still a crappy handgun cartridge. Those 9mm europellets have done well in many of those action reports. They excel at penetrating some of the modified armor the bad guys sometimes have as well. Pelvic shots from a 9mm or a .45 seem to be right on the money as far as effectiveness, they both do great. If issued a pistol make mine a Beretta flavored 9.
The bottom line in military circles is a combination of effectiveness and cost. In many cases they are compromised. Even so I think the pistol in military circles is an asset and should be encouraged even though for most it is wasted weight on the belt. If I had my druthers I would select a handgun and cartridge (I favor the .40 GLOCK 22 for that job) as standard for those limited jobs that require a handgun and I would allow individual soldiers to carry personal weapons of their choice in the service caliber. The .40 is a viable compromise that meets the needs of the "lotsabullets" crowd and the "BIG is Better" crowd. The heck with NATO compatibility.
My opinions and worth what you paid for them.
Vern Humphrey
Member
a
Amen! Count on at least a 90% degradation in performance when the feces hits the ventilator.
Devonai
Member
FotoTomas, thank you very much for your post.
marksman13
Member
fotothomas, great post. Lots of points to ponder there. I like the 45 and much prefer it to the 9mm for serious social work, but against soft body armor the 9mm may be slightly more effective. Had a few gun battles, but none ever involved insurgents with body armor. I think body armor is a regional thing, or something associated with certain groups of terorists. After my experience with the 9mm, I still think I would prefer a 45 if FMJ is in the mag.
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