What sidearm should replace the U.S. M9?

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cluttonfred

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I know this one is going to start a firestorm, but here goes.

Please let's NOT turn this in to a debate on the pros and cons of the Beretta 92, that's a different thread. But the stocks of M9s are aging and wearing and there has been talk of a replacement off and on for years, especially since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq began. So....

We are talking about a general issue sidearm for the U.S. military, all services, not for special forces or pistol teams or other expert users. Choose one pistol to serve everyone from combat infantry to pilots to cooks. For now, I'll suspend disbelief that economic factors won't force retaining the 9mm and open it up to any caliber. Remember, it has to be a gun suitable for men and women with large or small hands and varying levels of pistol skills from raw recruit to seasoned veteran.

And the nominees are...?
 
UMMMMMMM . . . . more of the same????
In fact 25,403 more of the same

NEWS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Editorial Contact:
Karen Lutto
Lutto PR (press office)

Matteo Recanatini, Marketing Manager
LE/DoD Division
Beretta USA Corporation



UNITED STATES ARMY LAUNCHES NEW YEAR WITH PURCHASE
OF 25,403 U.S. MADE BERETTA M9 PISTOLS

ACCOKEEK, MD (January 17, 2008) — Beretta has just announced that it has been awarded a multi-year contract by the U.S. Army to deliver M9 pistols to servicemen and women as part of the U.S. Government commitment to ensure the operational safety and readiness of U.S. Armed Services worldwide.


The contract is for 25,403 M9 pistols with deliveries starting in June 2008 and continuing until February 2010. The U.S. Army also reserves the right to purchase additional M9 pistols as needed to meet their needs. All of these M9 pistols will continue to be manufactured at the Beretta U.S.A. facility located in Accokeek, Maryland.


“Beretta is always honored to assist the U.S. Armed Forces in defending our country,” stated Jeff Reh, Vice-General Manager for Beretta U.S.A. Corp. "The Beretta M9 pistol remains the most reliable and well-tested handgun in the U.S. military inventory, with tests resulting in an average of only one malfunction every 20,500 rounds fired. U.S. Government witnessed testing at our factory has confirmed this remarkable reliability.” Mr. Reh added that, “Beretta U.S.A. Corp. has supplied the Beretta M9 pistol as the standard sidearm for the U.S. Armed Forces since 1985 and continues to make investments in manufacturing capability, R&D and product development to serve the needs of the U.S. Military and Homeland Defense community. “


"We are proud to be able to provide the U.S. Armed Forces with a reliable, robust sidearm that will perform when needed to defend the lives of our servicemen and women”, said Elio J. Oliva, Vice-President of Sales and Marketing for Law Enforcement and DoD at Beretta U.S.A. Corp. “We understand that the M9 is not a primary weapon system and that it is often used a weapon of last resort, in close quarters and under demanding conditions. When U.S. servicemen deploy their M9 in theater it needs to work. All 350 employees at Beretta U.S.A. understand the importance of this mission and remain committed to delivering the highest quality products to our Military”, said Mr. Oliva.


“Each of our M9 pistols is test fired with proof rounds and tested for accuracy at 50 meters”, said Gabriele de Plano, Vice-President of Product Development at Beretta U.S.A. Corp. “We have continued to invest significant resources to improve the quality and already impressive performance and reliability of the M9 through the years. We have also developed new accessories such as high-lubricity sand-resistant magazines to deliver improved performance in the unique environmental conditions of the Afghan and Iraqi theaters”, added Mr. de Plano. Each Beretta M9 pistol ships with 15-round standard magazines and is designed to accept 20-round magazines.


In 2005, Beretta U.S.A. Corp. received 13 contracts for M9 pistols and component parts from the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps. Many of the U.S. Army purchases were multi-year contracts lasting five years, from which over $31 million dollars in purchase orders have since been issued to Beretta U.S.A. Corp.


In addition to the M9, Beretta U.S.A. has developed the M9A1 pistol which incorporates various enhancements such as integrated Picatinny rail, enhanced grip checkering and magazine well modifications to allow for quicker tactical reloads. To date Beretta U.S.A. has supplied over 4,000 M9A1 pistols to the United States Marine Corps.

About Beretta Law Enforcement:

In addition to producing the celebrated M-9 pistol, the official sidearm of the five branches of the US Armed Forces, Beretta also outfits law enforcement and homeland security agencies across the United States.

Through its recently-launched Total Solution™ system, Beretta combines the strengths and core-competencies of every company within the Beretta Holding Group to provide optimal products and services to the Law Enforcement and Defense community. Beretta’s Total Solution™ provides a complete array of products to suit diverse regional conditions and meet agency objectives and needs. These include the polymer Storm family of products (Cx4 carbines and Px4 pistols), the Benelli line of shotguns, including the M4 Super 90, adopted by the United States Marine Corps, the SAKO and Tikka line of sniper rifles, the line of shotguns and pistols offered by Stoeger, and the hi-tech line of optics manufactured in the US by Burris. Beretta also operates several armorer and tactical training schools across the United States. For additional information, visit berettaLE.com.

About Beretta:

Beretta established in 1526, is the oldest industrial dynasty in the world tracing its roots through 16 generations of continuous family ownership. Firearms bearing the Beretta name have been sold for almost 500 years. Beretta USA Corp. was founded in 1977 and supplies the standard sidearm to the U.S. Armed Forces. Today Beretta manufactures, distributes and markets a complete line of firearms, accessories and apparel. Beretta also owns and operates six retail Beretta Gallery stores worldwide. For additional information visit www.berettausa.com.
 
Not a fan of the M9

I'm not a fan of the Beretta 92FS / M9. In fact, it was the first pistol I ever owned and I traded it away despite its sentimental value. I got a much better pistol for it.

I personally don't like to see us spending more money on a poor pistol. I would be much happier if we just switched over to the less expensive, more reliable, more harshly tested and widely abused CZ 75 line of pistols.

If you read about the CZ75s, their NATO testing is very impressive and they are the most widely used law enforcement and military pistol in the world.
 
I personally don't like to see us spending more money on a poor pistol. I would be much happier if we just switched over to the less expensive, more reliable, more harshly tested and widely abused CZ 75 line of pistols.

If you read about the CZ75s, their NATO testing is very impressive and they are the most widely used law enforcement and military pistol in the world.

X2. I think the CZ-75B is a great choice. Then arm aircrews with the CZ-75D PCR or P-01.
 
BZZZZZZT! Bad choice. Anything with HK on it will be overpriced and (with few exceptions) have bad ergonomics and trigger.

If the powers that be could get over their fear of a firearm without a conspicuous external safety, Glock 17 for general issue and Glock 19 for select troops would be a sturdy and proven combination.

John
 
I'm a huge fan of the 9mm, but I will freely admit that it is a lackluster performer in ball ammo. Since we will doubtless be using ball ammo for the foreseeable future, it makes sense to get something that does well with ball ammo. To my semi-educated mind, this means large slow bullets, which means .45 ACP.

So, going with the idea that it is to be a .45, it makes sense to get something that everyone, from huge grunt to smallish female, can fit their mitts around. This says single stack, as opposed to double.

A manual safety is a good idea for a military sidearm, as is a shootable trigger. The nice thing about the manual safety is it can allow for a lighter, single-action trigger. This improves shootability.

A method of determining the status of the weapon visibly would be nice. Perhaps an indicator that it is cocked? Maybe even an exposed hammer.

So, a single stack .45 with a single-action trigger and a manual safety, with an exposed hammer. Hmm. We've used one of these before, haven't we? ;)

Mike

PS That isn't to say that the venerable 1911 design should not be revised. I'd be happy with a 1911A2 that changes some of the things that make the 1911 a little finnicky or higher-maintenance than a modern sidearm. Larry Vickers is featured in SWAT magazine taking about how the 1911 is still viable, but is now more of a niche gun than say, the ubiquitous Glock. Some of the foibles of the 1911 (plunger tube) can probably be "fixed" with an -A2 revision. I'll now don my asbestos undies and let you guys decide what an -A2 should look like. ;) :evil:

PPS Full discolsure: I own a 1911 (Sistema, actually), but I'm not a huge drooling 1911 fanboy. I just note that the gun works, works very well for most people, acceptably well for almost all people, is a design with closing in on 100 years of institutional knowledge behind it, and doesn't need a multi-million-dollar R&D reinvention of the wheel to field. It just makes sense.
 
Hi Cap 45 like the FNP 45 or the HK45 Although I doubt we will be going away from 9mm anytime soon.

FNM0061m.jpg
 
Easy answer....

Glock G22!
The .40 is a better round than the 9mm (IMO), but the G22 doesn't sacrifice much in magazine capacity to a similar 9mm handgun.
And it has a medium sized frame so that even smaller guys and gals can grip it well.
And it has been well proven in the hands of law enforcement all across the USA.

If not the Glock then I would go with either the SA XD40 or the S&W M&P40.
 
All the above is pure speculation. As already posted (and some might not like it), here are the facts:-
UNITED STATES ARMY LAUNCHES NEW YEAR WITH PURCHASE
OF 25,403 U.S. MADE BERETTA M9 PISTOLS

And this will go through to at least 2010 - go read the press release.
 
Dies anyone else wonder how they came to the number 25,403? The 25,000, and even the 400, I could see being proposed, but the last three? And yet it would be hard to imagine them placing the order based on a count of the number of needs in all the armed forces, both because that'd be a big PITA to count, and because it's constantly changing.
 
It really doesn't matter...War's are not won with handguns....Personally, I think the present 9 is fine....Any talk of the .45 coming back is pointless due to the political/economic variables involved...
 
I read in a recent gun magazine that the US military has a few requirements for the next "standard-issue sidearm":

1. .45 ACP
2. At least a 9-round capacity
3. Integrated light rail
4. External safety

So that leaves out any current Glock (no external safety) and any standard 1911 (no 9-round capacity).

At least 2 options come to mind: The Beretta PX4 .45 and the new Springfield XD-45 with external thumb safety. I've handled both and prefer the XD ergonomically. It also has 13+1 capacity compared to the PX4's 9+1.

I love the Beretta 92 and just bought one myself. It's a very fine pistol, but it's not the beat-up old US-made military M9 with crappy aftermarket mags that have been used by our armed forces. I think the 92 has gotten a bad rap because of these weathered old M9 models that are using non-factory mags. I am, however, not a fan of the 9mm ball round for military use and think that a change back to .45 is long overdue.
 
I'm with Coronach except that I don't see the plunger tube in a 1911 as a foible at all. I dropped the FLGR in my Kimber for a plunger.

I see little merit in the idea that we must retain the 9mm round to appease NATO. We dragged NATO kicking and screaming to the 7.62, and then dropped it for the 5.56, waiting decades for them to catch up. I see little that has happened in the history of NATO which forced allies to use each others' ammo. LET US ALL USE WHAT WE WANT.

I like CZ-75s a lot more than I like Beretta, but I don't see a compelling enough difference between them to justify a switch. The military won't make changes to a gun, which on paper, is pretty much the same gun.

While I would absolutely prefer ANY 1911 style compromise, (such as a double-stack, or even LDA compromise,) the military will never admit that they did something wrong in the first place. Forget the 1911, not gonna happen.

I side with the ubiquitous Glock as the simplest, most IDIOT PROOF, universally useable handgun that could be issued and trained to many soldiers cheaply, effectively, and quickly. BUT, I think in head to head trials, the XD yould be tough to beat. Where military sidearms don't need to be concealed, and the 9mm is less potent, the .40 has more recoil, I see no reason to use anything other than a .45 ACP.
 
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