Mimicking Shooting Someone with a Handgun

[Norstrog]

If you have a minute please read the story below and respond as to how to appropriately handle the situation. I am a VA resident and am especially interested to hear what you LEO's that lurk these forums think/advise. This is not a philosophical debate it occurred earlier this afternoon.

Wednesday was my step-father’s birthday and because of scheduling issues we decided we’d go out to dinner tonight to celebrate. My wife and I met them at 6:30 this evening at my moms house. We all went in the same car Mom driving, Dad in the passenger seat, wife, and I in the back seat. We were driving down the road and all of a sudden mom’s complaining about a car behind us riding her tail with their bright’s on. She was getting upset so I turned around to see what the vehicle/driver looked like. The guys sitting there giving me the finger and began to swerve back and forth, right on her rear end. At the first opportunity he pulled up next to us, leaned out the window, and made a trigger motion like he had a gun and was going to shoot us. I must admit I clearly saw his hand and there was no weapon in it, however, it was a pretty obvious threat to myself, my wife, my mother, and Father none of whom appeared threatening in the slightest at the time.

My wife got the license plate, Dad know's his cars, and I got the appearance so I called the local police non-emergency line and reported it. I was offered the option of reporting it so they had in the system or filing a more official complaint with an officer. My mom lives alone and was affraid that somehow (not sure how but not my place) it would come back to her so opted to just report the incident so they had it on file.

I am a concealed carry permit holder, and a law abiding one, so did not have my weapon at the time because we were going to have dinner and a drink. This situation makes reaffirms my belief in CCW and I'm thankful that it was a minimal as it was.

My two basic questions are as follows:

1. Did we handle the situation appropriately by simply having it filed in the system in the case that the guy does it to someone else, or should we have filed a more official report with an officer?

2. We are adding two assumptions here, I am actually carrying and rather than mimicking the guy brandished and actual firearm. Is this a situation where I would be justified in using my weapon?
(I've read the laws and understand the answer to be yes but by no means am looking for such a situation).

 

[Caimlas]

1) I'd say you acted reasonably in this fashion. I don't know the law, so I can't say whether it'd have been more effective to file a complaint with an actual officer, but I can say that in a recent situation where someone threatened to shoot me (verbally), I did report it to an actual officer - though in this case there was at least a plausibility that he might try it. If you think it's a credible threat - to you or others at a later point - I say file.
2) That, I'm afraid, would be something for a jury to decide. I'm not familiar with the specifics of VA law, but I think a jury would look down on a "gun fight between vehicles" - images from movies would come to many people's minds, to be certain. And you'd have no way of knowing if your bullets are safe to others in such an event, if the vehicles are moving.

Having had a pistol pointed at me from a moving vehicle before, I can say that you probably don't have the time to reasonably respond before they start shooting, anyway - though that's just a guess. I imagine the best approach would be to swerve the vehicle into their's, though beiung the passenger you'd likely feel helpless as to what to do. In that situation, I think my compunction would be to either shoot, or grab the wheel to swerve.

 

[Z-Michigan]

1) I think you acted appropriately, though personally I would have done a more official in-person complaint with an officer. It seems like a clear threat.

2) I would hesitate to shoot in this situation, as while it's a clear threat, I don't think you would necessarily be in reasonable fear for an imminent threat to your life. That is the (approximate) test in my state, and other states may be different.

I have had many scary instances of seeing road rage, usually involving just other cars, but a few where I was involved (NOT the aggressor). None of the incidents I've seen or been in resulted in any physical contact, fortunately. I'll say that personally, if I'm in a moving vehicle and attacked with a clear threat to my life, I'm more likely to use my vehicle as a weapon than to try shooting. For me this is shaded by the fact that my smaller vehicle is over 3 tons (long story, not on topic). For many drivers I suppose use of their vehicle wouldn't be as viable an option. If you have a faster vehicle than the other person, speeding off is also a potentially good option, depending on road conditions.

 

[twoclones]

Personally, I think traffic makes otherwise nice folks insane and would not have paid much attention to the finger gun. Had it been a real gun, or a toy indistinguishable from a real gun, that would have been a very different situation.

 

[Treo]

Somewhat off topic but, one of the biggest mistakes I ever made during a road rage confrontation was to let the other guy pass me when I should have floored it .

I was hopping that if I did he'd just drive away. Instead, once in front of me he started trying to force a rear end collision.

Never let the other guy pass

 

[ronwill]

My opinion, you acted very appropriately. While I probably would have filed a complaint, you complied with your Mom's wishes. Since there was no immediate threat, that was an acceptable action. Many people change personality when they get behind a driver's wheel and, most of the time, it's best not to react aggressively in road rage situations. I always try to be courteous when driving allowing others to pass when they come up behind me, at least once. If they are "stop and go" drivers and I have to go around them because they slowed down, well I may not let them pass again.

 

[The Bushmaster]

"Never let the other guy pass" ... Now that sounds like a real formula for increasing the road rage, accident causing not to mention obstructing traffic...That is not the solution either. Find a well lit establishment with lots of people around and pull in and wait or call the police and have them earn their keep...

At the same time be ready if it all "goes south"...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i let em pass then turn off way past needing to prove anything, i got over being short

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

in va they might have a charge called "making terroristic threats" that i've seen applied to the finger gun fools. personally i think breaking the finger is appropriate but i've been over ruled

 

[brickeyee]

Just get away from the idiot.

Depending on where you are in Virginia traffic can be very bad.

It is really best to avoid these *******s.
There is no reason to die over who is driving in what lane.

If you showed a weapon you would be brandishing.

 

[Loosedhorse]

As a CCW, you should ALWAYS report...

any threatening behavior to which you did not react by drawing your weapon. If any of those acts rise to the level of criminal assault, you should file a criminal complaint. And keep a logbook of each instance.

Why? Let's say G-d forbid someday you do have to shoot someone in self-defense, one of the first things that may be leveled against you is that you over-reacted, you were just waiting for the first opportunity, etc.

Wouldn't be nice to say (if counsel so advises you) to the detective, "Actually, sir, I've been threatened on a number of occasions, and never even drew my firearm, and YOU have the records on that. But this was different: this time I was in fear for my life, because the attacker..."

Isn't nice to have the police record as part of your defense?

 

[Rokyudai]

Definitely should have filed a more detailed report. If you have someone tailgating/having brights on and it is safe for you to pull to a far lane, off the road, or off an exit, do it. If he is following you at this point, try to get yourself to a police station or the most public place you can. Start honking your horn and get as much attention as you can. Hopefully he will not want the attention at that point and get away.

If this guy is so stupid to persist, stay in the car. If he gets out, you now can speed off probably before he can get back to his vehicle.

This isn't a science, you need to act when you believe your chances are best. Do not use your gun against someone making hand gestures. Be the bigger person and do everything you can to avoid the morons.

 

[WayneConrad]

The laws justifying the use of deadly force vary from state to state, but in my state (Arizona), the use of deadly force would not have been justified. I am not sure whether or not my state's law would justify the threat of use of of deadly force, but I wouldn't consider it wise in that situation. No threat to your life existed. What he did was the equivalent of a verbal threat, "I'm going to shoot you." What you were lacking was the evidence that he had the means to carry out that threat. A verbal threat in the absence of the means of carrying out the threat does not justify the use of deadly force in your defense.

The laws in your state may differ, but I would be surprised if there is a state that permits the use of deadly force in that situation.

 

[Kentak]

Never let the other guy pass

Bad (I won't say "stupid") advice. When someone behind you is acting like an idiot because they think you are going too slow, whether you are or not isn't the issue. Pull over and let them pass. Pull into a parking lot that can give you more maneuvering room if needed. Much more likely than not, that's all that's needed to end the situation. They'll go on their idiotic way and be a pain in the butt to someone else.

An empty hand gun gesture is not a reason to show a gun. You did the right thing by making the report. I wouldn't have made a formal complaint for such a trivial, albeit obnoxious, incident of road rage.

Keep in mind that in many jurisdictions, merely handling a gun in a vehicle, absent a legally justified reason to use it in self-defense, can be a crime in itself. It's not worth it. As a CCW holder, your purpose should be to avoid potentially serious confrontations, not go looking for them with you loved ones in the car.

K

 

[Kentak]

What you were lacking was the evidence that he had the means to carry out that threat. A verbal threat in the absence of the means of carrying out the threat does not justify the use of deadly force in your defense.

Excellent point, WC.

K

 

[maestro pistolero]

Let him pass. Then slow down, turn, or pull over traffic and circumstances permitting.

BTW, cars can stop WAY faster than they can accelerate, so if you find yourself staring down someone's muzzle to your left or right, SLAM on the breaks if you can, THEN pull your weapon while you try to get away. If getting instantly out of the line of fire is not possible, don't hesitate to shoot back, but make SURE of your shots and backstop.

 

[brickeyee]

"The laws justifying the use of deadly force vary from state to state, but in my state (Arizona), ..."

Virginia has NO statute law governing deadly force.
ALL of it is case law.

If you do not have a copy of "The Virginia Gun Owner's Guide" get one and read it KNOW>

Most of the case law is pretty clear (we have had a long time ;growing' it) but you still need to understand things like 'justifiable' and 'excusable' homicide (the two classes used in Virginia).

 

[Norstrog]

I want to clarify that my question about the use of deadly force was not one of whether it was appropriate in the instance that occurred, but rather extending what occurred into a more philosophical realm. In other words, the guy did not have a gun and I recognized that and therefore the use of deadly force in VA would definitely not be appropriate. That being said I must admit I did not stop to fully think about what the situation occurring in moving vehicles truly meant when I asked. Point being, I think that the general answer of even if he had brandished an actual firearm responding with yours should be secondary to using the vehicle appropriately. I personally will never brandish my firearm, I hope to never show it to anyone except my fellow enthusiasts because the instances where I intend to do so will only be those in which my life or the life of another is in danger. As Caimlas pointed out a shootout between moving vehicles is quite possible going to endanger more than the parties involved. I have no problem with the concept of personal defense. I do have a problem with injuring an innocent third party because I acted inappropriately.

I appreciate everyones response no matter what the stance. I feel that analyzing situations like this after they occur is a good way to handle it better if it happens again.

All in all, people like this guy always leave me wondering what the hell were they thinking? Is getting to your destination a couple minutes quicker truly worth your life? Concealed carry has made me much more passive and less likely to react with aggression myself. It truly has implanted the thought of, if I can carry a gun whose to say this person is not, and is it really worth it? Unfortunately, for people like this one day he's likely to make a gesture of this sort to someone who will actually respond by shooting him. That being said, it's not going to be me unless there is no other choice.