Modern .30 Carbine?

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Be careful what you wish for. Ruger made a single action revolver in 30 carbine. The blast and flash when rifle ammo was fired in the 6" barrel was something to behold.

As I said...

I have a .30 Carb Blackhawk...

The blast may be "legendary" but it's nothing earth shattering.

Now, from a snubby, maybe it would be. I'd still like to have one!

S&W prototyped a .30 carbine revolver (N frame) to give paratroopers a sidearm firing the same ammo as their M1A1. Reportedly the blast was so bad that even a tough paratrooper wanted no part of it.

Considering the lack of hearing protection common then, that would be a painful thing to shoot, I'm sure. It's probably pointless now, considering that you can get an 8-shot .357 N-frame... wonder if you could get 9 .30 Carbine rounds in instead of 8 .357s?

Cooool!

-Sam
 
Unfortunately the HEZI seems to have been vaporware and the Magals had such constant overheating problems that they were withdrawn from service.
Yep, unfortunate...the HEZI seemed like a great concept, but the website doesn't even exist anymore. :banghead:

At least if you shot someone with a 30 carbine J-frame and they run away, you can tell the police that he will be easy to find - he's deaf and on fire.
That's funny right there...I always thought that the .30Car. would make a great autoloader pistol cartridge (free flash-bang with every round :D)...but surprisingly no manufacturer has made one that is reliable, moderately sized, and not grossly overpriced.

:)
 
Seems like engineering an M1 Carbine for a rimmed .357 round would be a lot of work (and without much left of the original).

Ammo variety has always been driven by the fact, that, until now, there were milliyards if not billiyards of Ball ammo out there. Really tough marketing decision, fielding a "better" round when plain-ol'-ball was a round at 2 or 3¢ each. Why the market is not now responding, probably has to do with the bounce-back of component shortages after DoD increased their buy by a half-billion rounds.

The Ruger question is still there. But, they already had a "Mini 30" and there's no way they would have done the "smart thing" and used GI mags.

Which really leaves the question of why Marlin never tried. They could have done something handy and simple. Not over-dressed like the Hezi. But, they stopped building the Camp Carbines, which has always seemed a dumb business decision to me.

But, what do I know?
 
Why would you want 30 carbine in preference to 5.56?
Due to the greater size of the round...it has a more favorable TKO value, making it arguably more effective.

kludge, you were joking about the .458 Win Mag...right?...out of a wee little Kel-Tec, gulp. :)
 
Quote:
"Kel-Tec SU-30Carbine or .45 Win Mag."


Why would you want 30 carbine in preference to 5.56?
I started to think of cool carbines to chamber in .30 Carbine and realized the same thing. Now I would love to see someone like Kahr make an M1 Carbine chambered in 5.56x45 with a 1/9 twist 16" barrel. It's much lighter and handier than a Mini-14. Probably more accurate too.

Quote:
"Why would you want 30 carbine in preference to 5.56?"

Due to the greater size of the round...it has a more favorable TKO value, making it arguably more effective.
That would definitely be arguable. I argue that a quality 5.56 round like 75gr TAP or 64gr Powerpoints has better stopping power due to its much higher velocity and terminal fragmentation.

Now if the manufacturers loaded .30 carbine with a heavier HP bullet, then you are talking about something.
 
After reading this thread, I have realized that I'm not alone. With the new carbine ammo it would be nice to have a 30 carbine upper that took oem mags.

It makes me wonder if we could get enough people to commit, would a manufacture make it?

And as far as the 357 carbine conversion, I have a barreled receiver that I want converted to 10mm but am unable to find out price.
 
Why bother with .357 mag. Use .35 or .351WSL and load with .358 rather than .352 projectiles. Viola, problem solved. That or find a Universal Ferret in .256 Win mag and rebarrel.
 
I have both an AR and an AK, yet I prefer my M1 carbine for SD. In sp form, it is an excellent choice with a long history of good performance.
I don't know that there is a need for a fancy new weapon in 30 carbine, since the original is just a great weapon...though the KelTec suggestion might be interesting.
What is needed is lots and lots of 30 carbine ball ammo at cheap prices, and some new SD loads at reasonable prices.
 
Due to the greater size of the round...it has a more favorable TKO value, making it arguably more effective.

What cares about TKO? We have real world battlefield performance data of the 30 carbine compared to the 5.56 (thanks to the Israeli, who fielded both at the same time). 30 Carbine doesn't even come close in terms of lethality at any range.

The 30 carbine does tend to have less penetration and report, making it useful for police operations.

How many modern militaries are using 30 carbine versus 5.56x45?
 
Which really leaves the question of why Marlin never tried. They could have done something handy and simple. Not over-dressed like the Hezi. But, they stopped building the Camp Carbines, which has always seemed a dumb business decision to me.

Apparently the Camp Carbine did not sell well. It seems there are more people interested in the latest super magnum than in a super handy carbine.

Marlin's short barreled lever guns make a prety good camp carbine. They are just not semi-autos like the M1.
 
>We have real world battlefield performance data of the 30 carbine compared to the 5.56 (thanks to the Israeli, who fielded both at the same time).

GunTech, I'd be very interested in reading this if you could point the way to the source. Thanks!
 
Speaking of Kel-Tec, how about a SUB-2000 with ten rounds of .30 Carbine in a single stack magazine. Now that would be handy, and when you compare the .30 Carbine to pistol calibers it is a substantial upgrade. Heck, a rugged SUB-2000-like weapon in .30 carbine, if quick and easy to unfold and use, might actually be a great PDW or police carbine even today. Even bike cops could have them in locking hard cases bolted to their mountain bikes. ;-)
 
The 30 carbine pretty much requires a locked breach system, which the sub-2000 does not provide.
As for the years of combat experience comparing 5.56mm and 30 carbine, we are comparing FMJ to FMJ...Yes, 5.56mm is superior in that comparison. But private citizens are not restricted to FMJ. I find Soft Point 30 carbine to be a terrific HD round, and I can switch to a mag of FMJ if I need to punch into a car door.
While there were many reported combat failures of the 30 carbine FMJ load, some great soldiers preferred it...Including Audie Murphy.
 
Indeed, all military after action reports are with military ammo, ball versus ball. It is the unique behavior of 5.56x45 ball (fracturing at the canneleur) that made it 11% more lethal than the 7.62x51mm during the Vietnam conflict - which was admittedly an environment that played to the M16 strengths, i.e. close contact and meeting engagements.

All spitzer type ball ammo behaves in a similar fashion when it transits media (strikes tissue, for example). It tends to flip over and exit base first if penetration is through and through. M193 and M855 5.56x45 does start this flip, but tends to fracture (when velocity is over about 2400 fps) and break into pieces, which accounts for its higher lethality at optimum ranges (about 150m with M4 type rifles)

Round nosed bullets like those used in pistols and the M1 carbine don.t exhibit this behavior.

Once you add expanding ammo to the mix, it's a very different game, but 5.56x45 with expanding ammo can still wreak a lot of havoc. The slightly larger diameter of the 30 carbine bullet, and slightly heavier weight still have to contend with the higher energy of the 5.56.

The typical 110gn soft point 30 carbine round will have around 950 ft-lbs of energy. A similar 223/5.56 load will offer around 1300 ft-lbs, about a 25% energy gain. Many deer are taken in this state by the 223.

The 30 carbine does have an advantage over pistol caliber carbines, but as noted, there's a reason it hasn't been popular outside of limited military applications - and its civilian popularity has waned substantially since cheap military ammo is no longer available. The M1 carbine was designed as what we now call a PDW. A better comparison is against the FN P-90 and the 5.7x28. I that role, the M1 is a superior solution except in the case of armor penetration.
 
GunTech, I'd be very interested in reading this if you could point the way to the source. Thanks!

I'll have to scan it in. I don't think the report I have is available on the web.
 
id like one in a different caliber like .45acp

if i had the equipment and the money i would make one by self

what i want is an m1 carbine that would take thompson/greese gun/uzi mags but still has pretty mucht he same action i like how the bolt works and the oprod


i think a 3 way cross between a riesing a marlin camp 45 and an m1 i can dream cant i?
 
As would I...I have always thought the M1/M14/Mini14 safety was a great design...why the M1Carbine didn't use it I don't know. It definitely needs to be able to accept the USGI Carbine Mags though. :)
 
I have always thought an even better option would be a rimless 357 or 357 maximum round. The rimless design would allow the use of box magazines. The load data is already there and the world is full of excellent 357 bullets.

The 158gr bullet going 1800fps gets a little over 1100 foot pounds of energy, The 125gr bullet makes a little over 1300 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. Those are velocities I have gotten from my marlin 1894 with an 18" barrel. The twenty inch rossi I use to have would get around 1860fps with the same load.

The 357 maximum would probably get a couple of hundred FPS more.
 
The .30Carbine round could use a little updating...new load data and a better selection of bullets would be great. :)
 
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