More developments with groom shooting story

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Don't hijack the thread

The First Amendment has got to go. When an undercover agent hears talk about guns, he needs to be able to take pre-emptive action. After all, talk about guns clearly means you're about to be shot.
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There's a huge difference between talking about guns and
"Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!"
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as far as I can tell from the given information, it seems to me like the civies didn't know that it was LEO after them. Seems they thought it was some other civies comming to put the hurt on them.
 
If that Fox news report is correct then this looks like legal shoot to me. Now whether it follows NYPD policy, we shall see and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter (of course it will matter to the Officers and for the civil law suit that follows, but not in the criminal inquiry, nor how good the shoot was). I don’t care if you they didn’t have a gun, you assault someone with a deadly weapon and are actively trying to assault more people with it, you can and should be stopped with lethal force.

The real losers, are the family and the Officers (if they are telling the truth). The winners, are the lawyers and the politicians who are going to capitalize on this incident.

Andrew
 
A car is a pretty big target. If they hit one passenger three times, one passenger 11 times, and killed the driver, I'd say they were shooting better than average and it is unlikely they missed an entire vehicle with 29 shots.

I'd say a more likely event is the one someone described earlier - shots went through the windows or ricocheted off the sloped windows; but nobody can tell how many because at a minimum both driver's side windows and the rear window were completely gone by the end of the incident. If all of the windows are shot out, not much evidence of rounds that passed through or deflected off of them.
 
I recently talked to someone who lives in NYC and knows this area... turns out the train station hit by one of the bullets is actually the main station for the Queens area. At 4 AM the area is filled with early morning commuters, and to hit the station the bullets would have to fly through a block packed with people and taxis. Whatever the victims may have done, firing toward the station should get those cops off the force and into jail.

Also, muggers and carjackers often claim to be police. When confronted by an armed robber in Bloomberg's Gun-Free Paradise, claiming to have a gun and then flooring it out of the area sounds like a pretty good strategy. If the cops suspected the groom and friends of wrongdoing, I don't see why they couldn't have just taken down their license plate number and sent a couple cars of uniformed officers after the guys.
 
Even here in Cali muggers, burglars and general no gooders will claim to be cops to get people to stop. Last time I was in Plano, TX there was a big thing on the news about people pretending to be cops doing bad things.

Of course half the reports claim they didnt announce who they are and some say they did.

Who are you going to believe? Eyewitnesses, an agency looking to cover their asses, the cops, or the guys in the car?

EVERYONE has something to gain or lose in this one.
 
Stuff happens.
Quickly at times.
Fog of War and all that.
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So American cities are now war zones? Huh. I thought they were still supposed to be PEACE OFFICERS, not engaged in urban combat with no regard for what's behind the target? Is that just "collateral damage", now?

If this is to be "normal police procedure", the people of Queens will need kevlar windowshades and armor-steel siding. And since they didn't even care that they were shooting at a TRAIN STATION as well, perhaps tactical ballistic newspapers for the commuters.
 
Are NY cops still...

restricted to FMJ ammo in their auto pistols? I know that severely reduces stopping power thus possibly causing extra rounds being fired to achieve stopping of hostile behavior. With the number of officers firing, 50 rounds does not sound excessive. The question is, once someone percieves a threat (rightly or wrongly), did the other officers percieve a threat also, or were they firing just because one of the other officers was? We should wait for the FACTS to come in before we rush to judgement and condem officers who are trying to do their job to the best of their ability.
 
So American cities are now war zones?
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Uh, yeah... certain parts of certain cities are... or so it would seem based on the facts.
If this is to be "normal police procedure", the people of Queens will need kevlar windowshades and armor-steel siding. And since they didn't even care that they were shooting at a TRAIN STATION as well, perhaps tactical ballistic newspapers for the commuters.
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I'd guess that in the 3 - 10 seconds the S(tuff) was hitting the fan, the shooters were tunnel vision focused on the threat, i.e., deadly car that had hit one person already, hit their van once, hit the building (door) during rapid backup and charged forward yet again and weren't really thinking about their fine city or the taxpayers who might be in the line of fire. There might be a reckoning coming their way as a direct result.

Where would you be looking? Probably depends on where you're standing when things go south.

Too bad someone got shot to death and his buddies shot up as well. I bet everyone involved wishes they could go back to the morning prior to this and make different choices... but they can't. This one will also be interesting to follow. Let's see if Dept policy is changed. Let's see how much money changes hands. Let's see if the two shot up buddies get charged with the death of the driver... or if an LEO does.

Every bullet has an attorney attached to it... right?
 
restricted to FMJ ammo in their auto pistols?
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No. They usually carry JHP Speer Gold Dots.
As I read more about it. It seems like the 3 victims saw an UC with gun out coming towards them from behind. They jump into the car saying "He's got a gun!" They start to take off. The other officer comes in front and confronts them. They drive towards him thinking that he's a BG. and all hell breaks loose from there.
It seems that the initial sight of a man w/ gun before the cops ID themselves starts the panic reponse and the following events are tainted with that.
Seems to me at that point the UC cars should have put lights and sirens on. At least that would tell the victims that it was NYPD and not a couple of BGs
Also another point that intrigues me is that: The PO would have been firing at them from the hood of the car. It seems that would be the only way that shots would go through the car and out the rear to make it seem like someone inside the car was firing out the back.
 
What happened the "big guy" with a gun that these guys were arguing with? Did the cops ignore him? Wasn't he the first one the cops thought had a gun? At least according to that last article. Why didn't the undercover officer confront him instead?

If an UNDERCOVER officer approaches a car with his gun pulled, shouldn't he have his badge in his other hand? He can yell police until he is blue in the face, it don't mean a whole lot at 3 AM.

This was likely not a bad shoot, but I think these officers (especially the undercover officer) should still be punished for their conduct. They inserted themselves into this situation and failed to take any steps to difuse it w/o force. Why did that UNDERCOVER officer put his foot on their hood while yelling "Police" while not even having his badge out? If he wanted to prevent a drive by shooting, that ain't the way to do it. He put himself in position to become a target of the car and failed to properly identify himself IMHO. It would seem to me it was his actions which turned this into a turkey shoot. The fools in the car contributed, but I think it could have been handled differently.
 
Stop a potential drive by shooting by killing the suspects as they drive away from the scene after having not done anything? Makes perfect sense ;)

I mean, it sounds like they talked big in the club, but went outside and were simply driving away (leaving w/o doing anything suspicious). If every person who talked smack in a club was either arrested or killed, then we'd have overflowing jails and graveyards.

But all told this is a harder incident to call, late at night, alcohol involved, etc. But that doesn't excuse breaking departamental policy on firing into vehicles. And the order of events seems a more than a bit suspect.

I hope we learn more over the next week as to how this really played out (and I hope we get the truth rather than just the blue wall of silence and cover up).

Again, this incident makes a good case for strictly limiting undercover work, and the use of unmarked police cars. Take those two factors out of the equation, and I suspect no one would have been shot.
 
Well thanks to Rudy boy's plainclothes anti-gun squads and their shoot first policy, the easiest way to order a hit in NYC is to call 911 and say you saw the target with a gun! This is the fruit of the war on guns he started with his "anti crime" units.

Heaven help us if "America's Mayor" gets nominated by the GOP. I'd vote for Hillary first. I'd vote for OBL first!
 
gc70: you're too right.

The irony is that cops tell when perps lie by comparing the story they tell from one day to the next... or by dividing the perps into seperate rooms and comparing the stories they tell indiviually.

In this case it seems like they'd fall victim to their own tactics, can't keep their story straight for more than a few hours at a time ;)
 
Well I got flamed (singed) for questioning the shooting ability of NYs finest, but I have another question. How many drinks are undercover officers supposed to have, before starting a shoot out.
 
Give'em All Revolvers

Just seems like hysterical spray and pray mentaility rules. They can use their revolvers properly - to fight their way back to the patrol car where the M-16 or pump is stashed.

I'm not being facetious here. For ordinairy routine policing, when was the last time NYPD cops were gunned down by virtue of not having semi-autos avalaible? I thought the FBI's rule of threes (3 shots, 3 feet, 3 secs) applies and until a convincing weight of real world situations appears, I think 6 / 7shooters are the way to go.

Also, lets face it - a 4" bbl L frame 7 shot with 2 speedloaders oughta get you out of any situation. If not, then you had better use it to fight your way back to your rifle or shotgun.
 
I'm honestly surprised that they're allowed to have two drinks. Before I even crack my first pop top my carry gun is unloaded and locked away. Whens the last time you heard of a range with a two drink policy before heading out to the skeet range or firing line?
 
I have to agree with you redneckdan. Alcohol and firearms do not mix. My off duty weapon stays in my vehicle when I'm imbibing. I think the officers in New York were justified. Each officer there percieved a threat and acted accordingly as he was trained.
 
Why did that UNDERCOVER officer put his foot on their hood while yelling "Police" while not even having his badge out? If he wanted to prevent a drive by shooting, that ain't the way to do it.
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Maybe he watched TJ Hooker as a kid?


I would think allowing UCs to drink at all would just give ammo to the defense team later at trial.
 
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