Mosin-Nagant gets attention

[mio]

ok i bought a mosin less than a month ago and havent fired it yet

its my first mil-surp rifle and i bought it mostly because it was cheap and the ammo even chaper (found $3 a box)

is there anything else i should know besides it makes a big boom and just what does C & R rifle mean?

 

[bartsimpson123844]

C&R means Curio and Relic. It is a license that you can acquire by signing up for the license. Basically, once you have one, you can order C&R firearms online and have them shipped right to your door. If you are interested, here is a great guide on how to get one: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48235

 

[darkknight]

would a tasco buck sight scope be a decent addition to this rifle. i figure for a 89 dollar firearm a 500 dollar scope is kinda pointless. so i figured a more economical scope is a better buy. whats needed to mount a scope to these rifles is it hard to do. cant somebody with no gunsmithing expierence do it. i planned on using weaver scope mounts and i am almost sure you need a scope mount. anyting else im missing. plus do these guns come with cleaning supplies or do i need to plan on purchasing one of these.

 

[Cosmoline]

There are some scout style mounts available that sit on the rear sight mount. Darrell's are the best. Do a search on those in this forum and you'll find lots of imformation. The receiver scopes are typically PU type that mount on the side. Several importers are selling replica snipers with post-war PU's on them. I'd encourage new Mosin shooters to take the opportunity to learn how to use combat irons and a tangent sight instead of slapping a scope on it right away.

There are some kits that replace the straight handle with a screw-on turned down version and mount over the receiver like a standard Remchester, but these are problematic and most serious Mosin shooters consider them a waste of a rifle. For one thing, drilling into case hardened steel over the chamber is not the best idea. If you want a classic American hunting rifle with no iron sights and a good receiver mounted scope, get a used M-77 or a Savage.

 

[tinygnat219]

Kokogirl,

I find the Wolf 7.62X54R brand, and the Albanian Surplus 7.62X54R give you the biggest muzzle flashes. I have fired the Czech light ball 147 Grain Silver tips, the Hungarian 182 Grain Yellow tips, the Wolf, and Albanian and the last two have had the biggest muzzle flash.

The muzzle flash is there because the 7.62X54R ammunition is designed to be fired out of a longer barrel which denigrates the flash and noise.

TJ

 

[tinygnat219]

I am the guy that Zespectre went to the range with

Zespectre,

It wasn't an M38, but it's cousin the 91/59 which is a lot rarer. There isn't really much difference between them. I didn't realize that I startled you with that muzzleflash, but hey it's a fun gun to shoot. Out of my carbine collection, the Mosin Carbines tend to have the most recoil followed by the M-95 Steyr, although that's open for debate.

Here's something for some light reading. I forget where I picked it up.

AK-AR-Mosin-Nagant Comparison:
AK-47:: It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
AR-15: You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent oil for cleaning
Mosin-Nagant: It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945

AK-47: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside
AR-15: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600m
Mosin-Nagant: You can hit the farm from two counties over

AK-47: Cheap mags are fun to buy
AR-15: Cheap mags melt
Mosin-Nagant: What’s a mag?

AK-47: Your safety can be heard 300m away
AR-15: You can flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger
Mosin-Nagant: What’s a safety?

AK-47: Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling
AR-15: Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle has dog collars

AK-47: Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter
AR-15: Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife
Mosin-Nagant: Your bayonet is longer than your leg.

AK-47: You can put a .30” hole through 12” of oak, if you can hit it
AR-15: You can put one .22” hole in a paper target at 100m with 30 rounds
Mosin-Nagant: You can knock down everyone else’s target just from the shock wave of your bullet going downrange

AK-47: When out of ammo, your rifle will nominally pass as a club
AR-15: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great whiffle bat
Mosin-Nagant: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.

AK-47: Recoil is manageable, even fun
AR-15: What’s recoil?
Mosin-Nagant: Recoil often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.

AK-47: Your sight adjustment goes to 10, and you’ve never bothered moving it
AR-15: Your sight adjustment is incremented in minute of angle
Mosin-Nagant: Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you’ve actually tried it

AK-47: Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation’s most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide
AR-15: Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nation’s most illiterate conscripts
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time

AK-47: Your rifle won some revolutions
AR-15: Your rifle won the cold war
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle won a pole vault event

AK-47: You paid $350
AR-15: You paid $900
Mosin-Nagant: You paid $59.95

AK-47: You buy cheap ammo by the case
AR-15: You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
Mosin-Nagant: You dig your ammo out of a farmer’s field in Ukraine and it works just fine.

AK-47: You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted
AR-15: Your foes laugh when you mount your bayonet
Mosin-Nagant: You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.

AK-47: Service life, 50 years
AR-15: Service life, 40 years
Mosin-Nagant: Service life, 100 years

AK-47: Its easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes
AR-15: You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and an upper
Mosin-Nagant: You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends if he suggests anything but 7.62×54R

AK-47: You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick
AR-15: You can repair your rifle at a certified gunsmith, it’s under warranty!
Mosin-Nagant: If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one

AK-47: You consider it a badge of honor when you set your handguards on fire
AR-15: You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group
Mosin-Nagant: You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2×4

AK-47: After a long day at the range you relax by watching “Red Dawn”
AR-15: After a long day at the range you relax by watching “Blackhawk Down”
Mosin-Nagant: After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor

AK-47: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka
AR-15: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and Apple Pie
Mosin-Nagant: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shish kabob

AK-47: You can accessorize your rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set
AR-15: Your rifle’s accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle’s accessory is a small tin can with funny lids, but its buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest

AK-47: Your rifle’s finish is varnish and paint
AR-15: Your rifle’s finish is Teflon and high tech polymers
Mosin-Nagant: Your rifle’s finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga’s toe nail.

AK-47: Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov
AR-15: Your wife tolerates your autographed, framed picture of Eugene Stoner
Mosin-Nagant: You’re not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin

AK-47: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout “Wolverines!”
AR-15: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie room to room.
Mosin-Nagant: Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the yard.

TJ

 

[tinygnat219]

Additional Mosin information

Mio,
If you have a Mosin Nagant, is it a Carbine or full-length rifle? The Carbine will be relatively short, and some have permanent folding bayonets attached to the side of the rifle.

Some tips:
Brace yourself for the recoil, the Carbines can be particularly ferocious. If you have ever fired a 12 Gauge with Magnum Slugs, you are well prepared.
I would also suggest getting a recoil pad, or wear something thick under the butt plate of the Mosin, as it's steel.
You will get looks at a range, particularly if it's indoors. Make sure your target is securely fastened. I have knocked my target down with the shockwave alone.
Make sure you clean the chamber thoroughly before firing. Mosins tend to develop what's known as sticky bolt syndrome, this is where caked up dried out Cosmoline turns back into its liquid state as the chamber heats up. The Cosmoline can then jam up your bolt real good and make it difficult to open. It will open, you just have to force it.
For your first range adventure, get the Wolf ammo, you won't be disappointed.

This set of rifles is the pride in my collection, I have 7 Mosin variants, mostly of the Carbines, and I wouldn't get rid of any of them. Please let me know if you have questions. I will be more than happy to help you out.

TJ

 

[kungfuhippie]

Mosin Carbines tend to have the most recoil followed by the M-95 Steyr, although that's open for debate.

I beg to differ, unless you mean the old 8x50R steyr. The 8x56R was the most powerful rifle cartridge of WWII, not the 8x54R. According to surplusrifle.com the Steyr 95/30 weighs 7.4 lbs and the mosin m44 weighs 8.9 pounds. So a lighter rifle shoots a more powerful cartridge...taking basic physics

a=F/m

the acceleration of the rifle (a) or felt recoil is equal to the force of the cartridge devided by the mass of the rifle. we will go unitless so I can use stand firearm vaues (grains, fps, lb/ft etc. and substitute force for kinetic energy (ke) since I can use mussle velocity to find ke but acceleration of a bullet while it's in the gun is not easy to find.

ke=1/2mv^2
for a 206 grain 8x56r
ke=1/2(206)2300^2
ke=544870000

for a 8x54r
ke=1/2(147)2660^2
ke=520056600

so our unitless comparative value is

a=ke/m

steyr a=544870000/7.4 = 73631081 = 7.36x10^7

mosin a=520056600/8.9 = 58433326 = 5.84x10^7

so our final numbers are 7.36 vs. 5.84 the steyr has a more powerful recoil.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah, there's no comparison between a Mosin carbine and the Budapest straight pull. I can shoot heavy 54R out of an M-38 all day. The recoil is not a problem. But the M-95 with that ball ammo is enough to make me quit. It's on par with magnum .45-70 out of a guide gun.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

I can imagine a whole generation of deaf russian folk

It was a whole generation of dead russian folk. The survivors were in no mood to treat the German prisoners nicely.

Deaf? I think most of the infantry was using the longer 91/30 or little sub-machineguns. Probably not that many carbines. The longer rifle is much quieter and much less recoil. I don't know why. The deaf folks were probably mostly Artillery.

If I shoot the M44 in summer, I try to remember to bring the Past pad. In winter, I'm padded with a good coat. And good earpads. And sunglasses.

Regards.

 

[270Win]

It's on par with magnum .45-70 out of a guide gun

OUCH!

I remember being at a gun show last year and being SORELY temped by a single-shot .375 H&H... which weighed maybe all of 5 lbs. and had a VERY narrow buttplate.

In retrospect, that thing would have been a severe punisher.

 

[tinygnat219]

I beg to differ, unless you mean the old 8x50R steyr. The 8x56R was the most powerful rifle cartridge of WWII, not the 8x54R. According to surplusrifle.com the Steyr 95/30 weighs 7.4 lbs and the mosin m44 weighs 8.9 pounds. So a lighter rifle shoots a more powerful cartridge...taking basic physics

Kunfuhippie,

That's why I stated that the conversation was open for debate. I have an M-95 Steyr straight bolt pull that shoots the 8X56R cartridge. It's close, but in terms of FELT recoil, I believe that the Mosin Nagant Carbines have the most. This is personal opinion, which is what I stated in my previous post. Shoot, if you have more evidence, let me see it. I am Definitely interested there!

If it helps, of all the rifles I own, the M-95 Steyr is the most annoying to fire. The Straight bolt action is tough to pull back . Couple that with the goofy Mannlicher clip loading feature then add the battlesites sighted for 300 yards and it's easy to see why this rifle was relegated to 2nd tier service.
TJ

 

[kungfuhippie]

The Straight bolt action is tough to pull back . Couple that with the goofy Mannlicher clip loading feature then add the battlesites sighted for 300 yards and it's easy to see why this rifle was relegated to 2nd tier service.

LOL, the goofyness of this rifle is why I love mine. Its size, mannlicher clip keeps ammo together, and weight have made me consider taking it backpacking (well not it, but another one I'll care less about dinging up) . It's the rifle that will eventually push me into reloading.
Yeah, 2nd tier cause it doesn't hold a candle to a nice german mauser or a 91/30

 

[Ad Astra]

Stiletto, nice pic of that bayonet lost in M44 muzzle flash.

and for all the flash and none of the recoil (and over 3,000 FPS to boot) try the Czech short-range hollow core 7.62x54r ammo in the short MNs. It has a bluish tone to the flash and does NOT cause sticky bolt.

 

[Stiletto Null]

^
That's what the picture was, actually.

The blue tinge he speaks of:

 

[packnpundit]

First Russian long gun

It's the day after xmas, and since nobody saw fit to buy me a gun this year I had to take matters into my own hands. Since I sold my sks last years, a crappy chinese one I brought back from long term storage. I had a few bucks to blow. For the whopping total of $89. Big Five set me up with a M38 carbine. Sweet! It has been through some arsenal work -good looking rifling, though not bright, bolt face resurfaced. Perhaps bolt was completely rebuilt (I'm hoping) recrowned barrrel, like new front sight and probably a total rebluing . The stock is in very good shape, with just a few small bruises. Receiver and Bolt numbers match! Magazine appears to be new or refinished with super clean springs and not a scractch on it or in it.
Receiver is stamped 1942.

This seems like a good value to me. What do you all think?

I'll be taking her down to Ben Avery range just as soon as I get a recoil pad and some Wolf ammo.

Is there anything else I should know? What kind of groups can I expect at 100m? 200?

 

[mio]

tinygnat219 what i have is the m44 i even went to 762x54r.net and identified it and the city it was made in (izhevsk). recoil doest worry me too much ive fired slugs from both my 12ga pumps and im sure nothing kicks as hard as my winchester with a slug or buckshot it made my 338 win mag feel like taking a break when i fired it.

i will be shooting the rifle this week probably on thursday since a few of us are going hunting and will stop at a gravel pit and pop off a few rounds when we are done. as for ammo im limited by location. there are 2 dunhams stores an hour away that carry wolf and winchester ammo but im really not into paying 16-20 dollars a box for it so im just sticking with the surplus stuff i got where i bought while on vacation in kentucky.

have you noticed an accuracy difference between the standard stock it comes with and a sporterized version? im thinking ill probaly put a monte carlo on it maybe change the bolt stick a cheap scope on top and use it for deer hunting if its halfway accurate

 

[trickyasafox]

i have my C&R, my first purchase was a yugo m59, then a yugo m59/66, then a m44 mosin. they do multiply.

i find following cheap ammo is what spures my purchases. . . as 7.62x39 dried up, i am now turning to 7.62x54

 

[ConfuseUs]

I can just imagine two hunters at dusk w/ M38/M44s:

MN:BOOOOM! (FLASH!)
Hunter1: Did I get it?
Hunter2: HUH?
Hunter1: I SAID, DID I GET IT?
Hunter2: I CAN'T SEE SQUAT! DIDJA GET IT?
Hunter1: I ONLY SEE A BIG SPLOTCH WHEN I BLINK!

 

[TimboKhan]

haha, that AK/AR/MN comparison made me laugh, and I immediately copied and pasted it to all my shooting buddies....

 

[Phaetos]

This butt cover for said MN, where might you have gotten it? Is it just any standard cover I can pick up at Academy or is it a special fit I will need to order?

 

[kmrcstintn]

I recently got an M-44 that was intended for a nostalic & fun range gun...I got the bright idea to use it as a backup rifle to my Stevens 200 (if the Stevens hits the ground there is no guarantee that the scope will hold its zero); my local Gander Mountain started carrying M44's after I found mine & had it transferred so they ordered some cheaper 7.62 x 54r ammo; I couldn't pass up rifle ammo for $9/box, even if it is steel cased...turns out to be 203 grain Brown Bear softpoints...yep...203 GRAINS!!! I'm not too sure that my shoulder and my fillings are going to like the recoil...what have I done?!?

 

[mattf.]

Here are a few pics of me enjoying my M44 a few weeks ago.

 

[mattf.]

turns out to be 203 grain Brown Bear softpoints...yep...203 GRAINS!!! I'm not too sure that my shoulder and my fillings are going to like the recoil...what have I done?!?

The bottom 2 pics I posted are with that ammo. The top pic is Olympic stuff.

 

[hcker2000]

I just picked up an m44 as they were on sale for $80. I have not had a chance to shoot it yet as I need to get some ammo ordered. Then I need to head to the range.

Should be interesting though. I don't hunt but any one happen to have an idea what the biggest game you could take down reliably with the 7.62x54r would be?