"Mountain lion attacks 7-year-old hiker" - Boulder CO

[Leanwolf]

RAYRA - "We also have a home near Lake Isabella in the Sierras, have for several years. I usually have a stiffly-loaded .357 on me when hiking there, sometimes a .44 Blackhawk when there are fresh sitings."

Rayra, I don't know exactly where you're place is, but I know that area pretty well. Used to hunt and camp up there a lot. (Lived in Los Angeles from 1962 through 1997.) I had a vacation home "on the other side," of the Sierra, from 1969 until 2000 when I sold it. My place was at Panorama Park, above Posey, in southern Tulare County.

(You probably know how to get there. Highway from Isabella up to Greenhorn Summit, down to Glennville, then up to Posey, Balance Rock, Panorama Heights.)

The tiny settlement, an ancient homestead, is completely surrounded by Sequoia Nat'l. Forest. My property was bounded on two sides by S.N.F.

I never was out at our place, nor was my wife, without being armed.

I've seen three mountain lions up there, plus several Black bears, and although not bothered by them, was very careful. There are lots of Black bears and mountain lions up there, as you know.

A neighbor lady up at my place, about 200 yards from us, came out one morning early onto her porch and a mountain lion jumped off the porch and ran. Scared the Hell outta her. Another mountain lion killed a Mule deer on our place once.

It was not unusual for bears to break into cabins, tear them all to pieces, looking for food, etc. Didn't hit our place, but had neighbors whose cabins were hit.

In 1984, I killed a 400 pound Black bear in Peppermint Canyon, just north of Johnsondale. I imagine you know where that is.

Before I bought my place, I did a lot of hunting/camping up in Clear Creek Canyon, which runs from Hobo Hot Springs on up to Havilah. Rugged country. Good place to be armed. Same camping over at Shirley Meadows.

Pays to be careful up there.

L.W.

 

[rayra]

Leanwolf, haven't spent a lot of time on the backside, but know where that is. Farted around Big Meadow, Horse Meadow a good bit not all too far from there.

Our place is similarly bordered by the Natl Forest [ETA - sorry I can't say specifically, not being dramatic, I literally have some online stalkers], critters can literally walk into our small neighborhood. And the small sand bar on the Upper Kern that we call a beach is a god stroll through some scrub, and I've found fresh bear scat many times, as well as cougar prints and chewed deer carcasses in that streambed. And plenty of folks and their kids tromp around in it. We have a few sets of friends who also have houses up there, and we are all very aware of what's up in the area, keep up with the local news and neighbors. We've all usually got our dogs on the trails with us, as well (new places on-leash, routine places off).

And we just took some guests and our dogs up around Johnsondale and Trail of 100 Giants last Fall. Literally 'loaded for bear' up there, and basically on 'overwatch' the whole time.

 

[Guyon]

I don't understand. There's no Starbucks in that photo.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

It is amazing to see what people do In the forest or on hiking trails. They go without water,GPS (compass),map or weapons. No one even carries a knife anymore. I live in the mountians in CO. I always carry a pack with food, water, GPS and a weapon when I go out in the woods. The tourist act like they are in a city park. I have bear and cat sightings around my house.
When I take the dog out, I take out a 44 mag.

Cat attacks happen every so often in Colorado. It seems a lot of them are in the Republic of Boulder.

Phonesysphonesys
Semper Fi

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

I haven't been paying attention - is Creeping Incrementalism some kind of froll?
What kind of Idiot 'plays the odds', EVER?

Please.

I'm not saying to go walking around completely unprepared into dangerous situations because the odds are under 50% that anything bad will happen. What I'm talking about is being 1. penny wise and pound foolish, and 2. the marginal benefit of keeping your kid in front of you.

Answer this--if its so dangerous that you have to keep the little people bookended 100% of the time, aren't you beeing a fool by going out there in the first place?

I'm not saying it's okay to be completely irresponsible. And of course kids should be kept close. But the marginal added danger of the kid walking ten feet behind you at times is completely insignificant compared to driving out there, and just being out in the wilderness. There are just a few risks you take with life. Worry about the big ones. Try to manage the small ones, but if you miss a few it’s okay, because it doesn’t make much difference, and life will be a miserable prison of nervousness if you sweat the small stuff.

I could call you a fool playing the odds for going out there with a satellite phone/emergecy locator beacon--cell phones lose reception all the time, or going out there alone to begin with--what if you had broken the phone when you fell, or hit your head. See what I'm getting at?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Answer this--if its so dangerous that you have to keep the little people bookended 100% of the time, aren't you beeing a fool by going out there in the first place?

If your tires are so flimsy you have to carry a spare, jack and lug wrench every time you go out, aren't you being a fool for going out in the first place?

If your town is so dangerous you have to pay taxes to hire policemen, aren't you being a fool for living there in the first place?

If you house is so inflamable you have to have smoke detectors and a fire extinguisher, aren't you being a fool for living there in the first place?

 

[.455_Hunter]

I grew up in the Mountains West of Boulder

This story hits close to home, as I grew up about 2 miles northwest of where the attack occurred. Our house was about a mile from the city limits and our 3.5 acres backed to a large tract of mountainous city and county owned "open space".

My family had many encounters with cats during the 1990's. We always carried side arms, even when hiking on the open space. 99.9% of the contacts ended uneventfully, but guns were pulled from holsters fairly often. Only once did my father have to discharge his .357 Ruger Police Service Six, sending a 158 gr. Gold Dot into a tree about three feet above a cat's head as he was getting into "ambush" position just at dusk.. The end result was perfect, no injuries to the cat or my dad, just ringing ears all round. The incident was not reported.

You have to have good situational awareness to stay safe in cat country. As stated before, too many people, especially Boulderites (and I am PROUD to be one), have a definite "ignorance is bliss" attitude when it comes to the dangers of being in the Colorado outdoors. These dangers apply, even right next to town!

Most people are not aware of the large variety of calls and other communication between two or more cats while hunting. Some of the sounds are very cat like, others sound like birds or other mammals. When you are in active lion country, it amazing what you can hear when you know what to listen for.

The victims brother, a freshman at CU, stated in the local paper, "I wish would have had a gun, I would have f***ing shot it." Maybe next time, he will. At his age, there is no way in hell that I would have gone hiking without my .38 Enfield and some deep penetrating LRNs or FMJs.

Thanks to Colorado's new CCW laws, carrying a weapon is OK in the parks as long as it is concealed. There is still legal debate about open carry, but CCW is fine.

A minor technical note- all of the recent (last 15 years) fatal (3) or potentially fatal cat attacks along the Front Range have occurred outside Boulder County.

My mom and dad still live in the same house, and my dad is still armed every time he goes outside.

I wish the best to the victim and I hope he has a speedy recovery.

Thanks,

Hunter

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Vern, your examples are things someone can skip from time to time (except for police in a bad town), or even regularly, without a problem, virtually all of the time. The fact that people often take such precautions does not mean they they are absoutely necesary, or that you are being competely irresposible by not covering those bases.

If by not doing something, the odds of something bad happening increase by 50%, then it is irresponsible. If the marginal benefit is .001%, I doubt how you can say someone is irresponsible for not doing it. Sure, it's a good idea, but you can't condemn someone for not being 100% vigilant in it.

What is ridiculous, is to condemn someone for it when everyone engages in a more dangerous activity, driving, every day.

Am I being clear at what I'm getting at?

 

[SSN Vet]

I really wish I had....

stayed in scouting.

Not only would I probably not have misspent 7 years of my life doing drugs....I wouldn't have to learn my merit badge lessons in my 40's.

My wife and I watch our kids like a hawk......mostly were concerned about the two legged predators, but have seen cayotees on our property as well.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, your examples are things someone can skip from time to time (except for police in a bad town), or even regularly, without a problem, virtually all of the time. The fact that people often take such precautions does not mean they they are absoutely necesary, or that you are being competely irresposible by not covering those bases.

If by not doing something, the odds of something bad happening increase by 50%, then it is irresponsible. If the marginal benefit is .001%, I doubt how you can say someone is irresponsible for not doing it. Sure, it's a good idea, but you can't condemn someone for not being 100% vigilant in it.

Fifty percent is your standard. Suppose I told you you had a 0.001% chance of being bitten by a rattlesnake if you stuck your hand down a hole you found in the woods. Would you go around doing it?

I often take children on hikes. You always bookend them, because if you don't, you wind up asking the other kids, "When was the last time you saw little Johnny?"

 

[longboard]

City danger , driving cars danger, hard to prevent.......................
Mountain lion danger ? easy to prevent!
Be Aware. Know the rules in the wilds.
People lose Kids in the woods all the time. I for one always know where my daughter is in the mountains or the desert. She is now 17, I still keep an eye on her.
Longboard

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Apparently some people think because mountain lions are the subject of this thread, mountain lions are the only danger kids face in the woods.

Butterflys have probably killed more kids on hikes than mountain lions -- a little kid sees a butterfly, wanders off after it and gets lost. Or chases a squirrel. Or simply sits down to rest, and then can't remember which way the rest of the group was going.

Always bookend children when hiking.

 

[TallPine]

I often take children on hikes. You always bookend them, because if you don't, you wind up asking the other kids, "When was the last time you saw little Johnny?"

About three decades ago, I lived in Alaska for a couple years and went on several backpacking trips with groups of 10-14 young adults (18-28). Since at that time I would be one of the best in-shape of the group, I often led the string of hikers on the trail, or else I voluntarily followed everyone else dead last to make sure no one strayed off the trail or got left behind.

 

[mbs357]

Those darn butterflies...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You bet. Kids can stray off, or come to grief many ways in the woods.

When I have more than three of four kids, I teach them to use an old Infantryman's patrolling trick. The lead hiker tells the kid behind him, "Pass up the count." That kid tells the kid behind him the same thing. When it reaches the file closer (the bookend), he says "one." The kid ahead of him says, "two."

If you're leading, and you don't get a count in three or four minutes, or the count is wrong, stop immediately and find out why.

 

[mbs357]

I remember that from JROTC (Which I miss incredibly), sounds good.

 

[Gordon Fink]

It is amazing to see what people do In the forest or on hiking trails.…

Indeed. I can’t say how many times I’ve seen sandal-wearing “hikers” heading up a mountain trail with no pack or hat carrying only a single bottle of water (if that) in the middle of summer.

~G. Fink

 

[Trisha]

Pilot, ditto.

Quiet indeed is our ghost - it's been years since either Susan or I have seen the cougar, though last week she literally stumbled over freshly-clawed deadfall. We think the predator is staging in anticipation of the mule deer that come and bed down on our property every spring. . .

Hearing one cough does make the hair on your neck stand straight up.

Trisha

 

[rbernie]

Answer this--if its so dangerous that you have to keep the little people bookended 100% of the time, aren't you beeing a fool by going out there in the first place?

It's not like this is a problem restricted to hiking on trails - it's the same issue that you wrestle with when you cross streets, go shopping at Walmart, and so forth. And just like you'd do in those urban/suburban environments (keeping visual contact with your charges at all times), you do the same thing on the trail.

Butterflys have probably killed more kids on hikes than mountain lions -- a little kid sees a butterfly, wanders off after it and gets lost. Or chases a squirrel. Or simply sits down to rest, and then can't remember which way the rest of the group was going.

That's a fact. I think that it's safe to say that far more kids die from getting lost or falling unnoticed than by being attacked by predators. Ask any scout leader their biggest challenge, and simply keeping an accurate headcount is the leader by a country mile. Most scouting trips that I've been involed with in recent years involve bookending the kids and FRS radios to link the leading and trailing adults.

When me and mine got out, even walking the trails at rest stops, we bookend. It's just common sense to understand that you cannot react to something that you cannot see...

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Fifty percent is your standard. Suppose I told you you had a 0.001% chance of being bitten by a rattlesnake if you stuck your hand down a hole you found in the woods. Would you go around doing it?

Yes, just to prove you wrong.

I wouldn't say 50% is my standard, it's well below that. I just don't think the added benefit of bookending in this specific case was worth everyone getting excited about. If there was just one kid behind me and I knew he wasn't liable to run off, and there wasn't much else to worry about, I wouldn't feel the need to bookend. But in the examples others gave where there's a lot more going on, yeah, I'd bookend.

 

[Cosmoline]

The percentage game is not one you want to play very often. The raw statistics taking total population and comparing it with bear or cougar attacks are deceptive. The real statistics to look at are how many close encounters REGULAR HIKERS in the areas in question have with said wildlife. For folks around here, even those who just use the Chugach trails, those numbers approach 80% or 90%. It's difficult to do routine hiking here without running into black bears at least. And it's getting harder to hike even in "civilized" areas of the lower 48 without encountering cougars or black bear. Moreover, for every one you see, far more than you realize SEE YOU. And every time they see you, they run the predator's cost-benefit analysis through their head. Are you worth the trouble? Usually, no. But sometimes maybe you or a smaller member of your group is worth the trouble.

Most close encounters do not turn violent, but some do. The strong possibility of a close encounter is more than enough reason to pack protection.

 

[Q-Lock]

Creeping Incrementalism,

Why on earth wouldn't you do everything in your ability to keep everyone in the group as safe as possible. Bookending would involve the two most "capable" members of the group taking up the front and rear of the line...why would you think it ok for a child (most incapable in this situation) to be taking up the rear of the line? That is just moronic, plain and simple.

Why gamble? Why assume that since you don't think the child will run off that nothing else could happen? Perhaps if the parents in this situation would have "gotten excited" about bookending the child, this attack wouldn't have happened. Perhaps it wouldn't have made a difference...I'm guessing there's a good chance it would have.

What ever happened to "better safe than sorry?"

 

[MDG1976]

They like to sneak up behind you and if they get there jaws around your neck (which they like to do) forget it

I saw a story on OLN about a cross country skier who was killed by a cat. It left footprints in the snow, it had stalked her for miles before pouncing. Scary stuff.

 

[Olys45]

Another view of "Bookending"

Hopefully this is a drift starting to happen, but a fresh perspective.

While I was stationed in Wichita KS I belonged to a 4x4 club. Whenever we went out on a trail run, the person who "sponsored" the trip acted as the lead vehicle, then the person who had one of the better prepared vehicle's there would always ride "tailgunner". This was to make sure everybody made it through just fine and there was a designated person to make sure that we didn't have any stragglers.

We used this tactic and everybody was adults and could play "follow the leader", but it prevented the "Where is Joe, when was the last time you saw him?"

Why wouldn't you do this with kids?

 

[george_co]

It just isn't in the Mtns.

I live in Canon (Canyon) City Colorado approx. 26k live here, Home of the Royal Gorge for those of you who may remember that rather than the name of the town. A couple of years ago we had a Mountain Lion walk into the Abbey located in the middle of town. The Arkansas River runs through the middle of town, we have bears, deer and Mtn. Lions along the river and the hiking trail through town.

I worry more about pedophiles than I do the wildlife. It may happen, but probably not. Anytime I walk the trails I am armed. When we walk in the mtns. I open carry one of my 41 mags., I ccw a 40 S&W anytime I am on a local hiking trail, too do otherwise is foolish.

How many times have my kids asked me why I carry, how many times has my wife asked me why I carry on the local trials? I smile, tell them I love them. When I am in the Mtns. I am always in the rear position with my kids in front of me, unfortunately it is just the two boys and myself. Controlling boys older than 6 is challenging anyway, more so when you are hiking along a stream.

The risk is real, but it is minimal there are many more likely problems than a wild animal attack. I will not lead nor will I teach my kids to lead a life where unless all risk is eliminated you sit at home. You work to minimize risk, then you live your life.