Mueller Optics

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Benzy - I'd like to know, after the interspersed comments from users vowing to never consider a Mueller (you can include me too), and almost 2,000 unique page views in 48 hours, if you still think "one customer doesn't matter"?

I believe I said from the beginning it was a PR disaster - wright or wrong - for Mueller not to pony up another $35-50 scope (their fixed cost).

And CraigC - I do own a small business and if you read any of the posts I made very early on in this thread, I've eaten many jobs worth a few hundred - where there was no doubt I was right - only to gain contract worth thousands later. The customer service game is not about who is right, it's about making calculated risks and winning the bet almost every time.

I basically called Mueller "stupid" and without business sense for ALLOWING this to get out of hand and, as I alluded to ealier, Benzy laughed me off. Well, who's laughing now? For one, I'm laughing, at Mueller.

BTW - I'm about ready to buy my fourth Burris scope - A Signature Select.
 
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Just purchased (today) a Vortex Viper 6.6-20x50. I only say that because I swear I will never mount a scope unless it looks perfect from the get go!

I paid a little more than I wanted to for the scope even though it was discounted 40% but I absolutely think Vortex customer services can't be beat. Lessons learned.

A P.R. disaster is an understatement for Mueller..
 
Mine in bold

Today, 07:14 PM #123
CraigC
That is your proof??? You speculate that they just happened to find a picture in print that perfectly typifies how a scope would be damaged by the mount in question?

And you guys actually buy this nonsense with absolutely no factual evidence whatsoever??? Wow, and folks think "I" just fell off the turnip truck.

The proof for your statement bro was how I discovered the way the photo was titled by the poster - image title was ( crushedtube1 ) Now FYI that is a the name from a stock photo image.

Today, 07:24 PM #125
1858
What evidence do you have other than an out-of-focus photo with crappy lighting submitted by one of the parties involved under odd circumstances. Would this photo be enough for a conviction in a court of law? Not even close!!!

Exactly 1858, just a lame attempt to try to cover up the truth.

And CraigC, I did not fall off of a turnip truck either. Sorry folks here think you did.

TK

 
I've been watching this thread and have to say as a nerd who does a lot of online reading:

No one on the internet can possibly know what the true story is. What I do know is that Mueller is the first company I've ever seen log onto a forum to refute a claim like this. Which to me, regardless, is completely unprofessional. If you have issues with a customer, handle it through appropriate legal channels. Done. I've yet to see username RemingtonArms log on to refute all the latest quality control claims. They might have a good reason....

So, as someone who hasn't owned a mueller optic, you can expect me not to. Not for anyone's claim to quality control, not because of their warranty, but purely on professionalism. Bad call from them.

Mags, good luck and I hope something gets worked out to your satisfaction
 
I'm like ART P. I think the only one laughing now is most of us laughing at Mueller. This is one of those times that even if it was damaged already, they would have probably come out ahead just to replace his scope.
 
No one on the internet can possibly know what the true story is. What I do know is that Mueller is the first company I've ever seen log onto a forum to refute a claim like this. Which to me, regardless, is completely unprofessional. If you have issues with a customer, handle it through appropriate legal channels. Done. I've yet to see username RemingtonArms log on to refute all the latest quality control claims. They might have a good reason....
Well, I for one do like to see them on the forum. At least they see what people have to say and peoples opinions about them. They can choose to take the comments and improve, or leave them. It's their choice what they do with it, but at least someone in the company is looking into complaints enough to find this thread.

I know the guys from Vortex Optics participate in several online forums, and often times when something happens they are quick to answer any and all questions as well as take care of the op if the are having any issues.
 
The proof for your statement bro was how I discovered the way the photo was titled by the poster - image title was ( crushedtube1 ) Now FYI that is a the name from a stock photo image.
The name of the image is your proof???

Sorry if you guys think the photo shows no evidence. It is clear as day to me. Given Mueller's stellar reputation, I lend FAR
more creedence to their statements on this issue than anybody else. They have a damning picture and accountability. Fact is, we have only Mags word on the subject that he did not know the scope had been damaged by his mount before he returned it. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I find it silly beyond measure that some of you guys deride them for coming to their own defense. For once, rather than just hearing the rants of a disgruntled customer, we actually get to hear both sides. But I'm sure the frothing mob doesn't care. Maybe you guys would just prefer to be able to complain in peace. I'm glad that manufacturers participate on forums, as evidenced in bulk at RFC. :rolleyes:
 
08:09 PM #129
kis2

Mags, good luck and I hope something gets worked out to your satisfaction

+1 kis2 -- My thoughts too!

It is getting a bit rough in this thread.

TK
 
I'm not finding them at fault for coming to their own defense. However, there are other companies out there in today's market with similar quality products in the same price range that just simply don't care what happened to the scope and will fix or replace it no matter what.

So regardless of what the true story is, why would I want to buy a product from a company that won't fix it if I did damage it, when I could buy a similar priced scope from another company cough*Vortex*caugh that will replace it no matter what happens to it?

Would I want to fix products that customers damaged for free? Hell no. However, if my competitors were doing it would I? Sure would.
 
Benzy - I'd like to know, after the interspersed comments from users vowing to never consider a Mueller (you can include me too), and almost 2,000 unique page views in 48 hours, if you still think "one customer doesn't matter"?

I believe I said from the beginning it was a PR disaster - wright or wrong - for Mueller not to pony up another $35-50 scope (their fixed cost).

First, how did you come to $35-$50 for a scope? Are you just making numbers up or do you have first hand knowledge of their cost? Not everyone can live on high margin products. Their cost may be $35 but then again, after shipping (both to the from China and to the customer) they may be a bit closer to retail price than you give credit. What if cost is $140 on a $220 scope? Is it such an great idea to give them away at that rate to every hostile customer encountered?

Do you believe they are going out of business for having two (this and one other found in a search) negative CS reviews among many positive? Do you honestly believe most of the people here saying they won't buy Mueller scopes were actually considering them? A few people have said they were going to buy from some other Japan or American made scope companies. Compare the costs of both. The Mueller line runs half the price. Do you seriously think a guy who was going to spend $200 on a Mueller is going to jump up to an equivalent $400+ Japan or US built scope?

I can say I'll never buy a Ferrari or a Kia because of some web review, but truth is, I never planned on it in the first place.

Lets be realistic here in what Mueller is and isn't. For the most part, they are budget scopes. They are on the top side of the quality ladder of China made scopes (save for the one or two Japan made models). People considering a Mueller are typically those considering a BSA, Barska, Simmons, etc. Not people considering Leupold, Burris, Bushnell Elites, etc. And even then, the warranties for all but Leupold and Vortex wouldn't cover a scope damaged by installation. Maybe a handful of sales were lost here. Then again, a lot of people posting here really haven't heard of Mueller or their reputation on say a site like rimfirecentral. If you want a larger sample of reviews of what the company is, head over there for a little bit.

I'll be the first to say I'm probably not buying another Mueller. There are 1 or 2 that I may buy, especially if on sale or in a good deal used. I think their quality is the top side of what is coming out of China, but not up to par with Japan or USA made or even Philippine made scopes. I really like the quality of what is coming out of Japan these days and am willing to pay for something out of either Japan or potentially the Philippines. But the CS has been great to me personally and from what I have seen in any other thread posted about their CS. I've seen a few unhappy customers (turret issues or ugly glass) and things were taken care of quickly and to the customer's desire (be that refund or replacement).

I don't blame Mueller for sticking to their guns that the scope was damaged by installation. If that is the case, and with my experiences and those that I have heard, I take their word. They didn't try to screw me or many others over that have had an issue before. In fact, they did the opposite. Based on their track record I am going to side with Mueller that the scope was damaged in an installation. If that is their honest review of the scope, I wouldn't expect them to fix it from there. I have seen what being the small guy means from a stand point of warranty work. I have seen how costly even a few replacements can be to a company that lives on small margin. It can be hard/impossible to make money if you warrant repairs that are outside of the defined warranty. It is easy to say how I would handle a situation when my money and business wasn't at risk. Until you sit in their shoes, looking at their financials, you can't pass judgement on how you would handle things.

The take away message from this thread are two fold. First, read the warranty, understand it, and don't use a product that is defective on arrival. The second message, is to consider how much you place on a top tier warranty and decide if you want to pay a premium for it.
 
if this is a 'frothing mob' (which I would disagree with), that just further obscures Muellers presence in it and should only HIGHLIGHT the formal channels as a right way of handling the situation. if they are to log on to every forum where any stranger who may not have even owned a scope from them can say bad things about their company, they will have to higher more CS reps.

keeping this in the right channels would've been highroad from them, in my opinion.

this is starting to turn a little philosophical, so I won't say anymore, but again, Mags, good luck
 
As I stated earlier, Mueller would not honor the terms of their warranty when my reticle illumination knob was stiff to the point of being nearly impossible to turn, instead telling me to keep twisting it and it will get better. So I took it apart and fixed it myself, presumably voiding the warranty. What choice did I have? I own three Muller scopes, purchased largely on the advice of internet forum members, so it is foolish of Mueller to hold court here at THR or any other internet forum, especially when one considers the vast array of scopes on the market today from which to choose.

Conversely, companies like Henry Repeating Arms has an established track record of phenomenal customer service, spread largely through Internet forums. You won't find Henry nickel and diming a customer about whose fault it was---it simply doesn't make good business sense.

I like my Mueller scopes, but my next scope will not be a Mueller. Their customer service convinced me of that, notwithstanding this thread.
 
Benzy - The cost to manufactur something, taking away the cost of running a business, is always small. It probably cost Glock $50 to make a pistol, the other costs are R&D, marketing, insurance, property and plant - on and on and on.

I think you have some good points about the true damage to Mueller when the dust settles. I just happen to think in a business environment it pays in the long run to give in when you're wrong, especially for such a small cost. I can't think of any business who became a leader by arguing and not holding customer loyalty dear to their philosophy. Enough of that.

I'm not slamming Mueller for the product they put out and price point their aiming at. I do think who ever allowed this to get out of control made a major blunder. It's hard to argue any other way.

Here's a good test... If the president of the company read this thread, do you not think he would immediately overnight Mags a new scope - regardless of fault? It's a no-brainer. I just happen to see it coming quicker - which is why I suggested to Mags to make the threat. I figured anyone with half a brain would give in. Nasty, maybe... Unethical, no.

Something else to consider. Any way you look at this there's a loss. Which loss is more fair and easier to swallow - Mags out $220 or Mueller out $35?
 
I just ordered this http://swfa.com/Vortex-6-24x50-Crossfire-Rifle-Scope-P43585.aspx Vortex Crossfire from SWFA.

I know it's one of their lower end scopes but after the 220 I'm out on the Mueller it's all I can afford for fun money for guns this year. If I still had the 220 from the Mueller and the 99 from the Vortex I could've came close to the price of the Bushnell Elite I wanted. Maybe I will get it next year.
 
Good luck to you Mags! Don't sweat the Elite. I have looked through them, and though a good scope, you're not missing out by choosing the Vortex.

I feel like if everyone chipped in 50 cents, we could collectively make this right.
 
Nah, I don't need ya'lls money the folks who can make it right would be Mueller. All I wanted was for them to remove the spec of whatever that was inside my scope.
 
As much as I like Vortex and have considered that scope myself, I've read of several guys having issues with them breaking. One a big Vortex fan on Optics Talk. That being said, they do at least fix them when something does happen, if it does.
 
MOC said:
we dont have or use vertically split rings here because they are harder to verify true ring alignment.

But the OP didn't use vertically split rings in the classic sense did he. He used a one-piece QD mount. The American Defense Scout-X scope mount used by the OP is a fairly high end system similar to LaRue's and GG&G's QD mounts. With systems like these no lapping is required - based on the five I have anyway. Installation involves snugging down the lower screws followed by torquing the upper screws to the recommended value. According to AD, that value is 20 to 25 in-lb!! If the OP used 15 in-lb as stated, the likelihood of crushing the scope tube is minimal to nonexistent.

ad_scout_mount.jpg


:)
 
Okay, now it's my turn.

I want to tell people about how WONDERFUL Mueller Customer Service has been.

A couple of months ago, I bought an Eradicator from a dealer, and have been very happy with it. So much so that when I bought my Kimber 82G, I decided that I wanted the Mueller Target scope on the rifle, so I purchased one of those as well.

At first, I wasn't able to determine if there was a haze or something on the inside of the lenses, or if my eyes were just getting old. So, I shot the rifle and the scope for about two weeks, and I finally convinced myself that there was something wrong with the scope. I sent Mueller and e-mail, and immediately they said 'Send it back. Don't worry about the $12.' Well, we conversed a bit before I actually sent it back, because I wasn't really sure that there was anything wrong with it, and the technician and I e-mailed for a couple of days. He went out of his way to explain things to me about eye relief, the way the scope works, to make sure that I hadn't run out of elevation, and everything. I sent photographs to him, and his reply was 'Send it in, we'll take care of it.'

It got there on Thursday, on Monday I got an e-mail from them, the scope was defective and they were replacing the scope. Not only did they replace the scope, they threw on a set of folding eye covers for the ends for free. I have a new scope, no questions asked, freebies along with it, and a great customer service experience. Even when they forgot to put on my unit number for my condo, they got right on to UPS to make sure that it was delivered the following day (it shipped ground, and the driver should have known where I lived for all the stuff he's brought me!).

I have absolutely no problem with Mueller products, and yes I know they're made in China, what the heck isn't these days? Their customer service is great.

I especially have a foul taste in my mouth over this because we've just gone through something like this with the company I work for. A customer had an out of warranty product that failed, and he wanted to send it back for repair. Now, the difference here is that it was out of warranty. We gave him the basic repair price, and even before he sent it in, he was complaining that it was too much, but he agreed to the terms, sent it in, and it turns out that there was much more damage then he described, and the repair bill was about four times what he expected. We had to replace a major circuit board that made up over 1/3 of the system. Well, he called our company up, went off about how much we were charging him, and threatened to 'put it all over the web and tell everyone how bad we were and how bad our customer service was.' And he did. We may have lost some customers because of it, also, which is unfortunate, because just because he didn't feel like paying the cost of the repair, he bad mouths us.

That's what this feels like. Even before he threatened to take his problem public, I already had pictures of the unit to try to help him understand what the problem was. Eventually, we had to post them to a forum, very similar to this one (not gun related) to show 'our side' of the story. So, seeing pictures from Mueller doesn't surprise me at all.

Most products, not only rifle scopes, but almost ANY product today, will tell you that if you abuse, misuse, or otherwise damage a product due to neglect or other failure on your part, that the warranty is null and void. Mueller is no different than any one else.

Don't beat the company for one person. Unless you've been there to see what happened on both sides, then you don't know the whole story. I don't know the whole story, but I do know that Mueller Customer Service is fantastic.

Gary
 
Gary, did you bother to read the thread started by Mags almost a month ago where he describes a "foreign object or imperfection" in the field of view. He was open and honest about the scope long before this $hitstorm happened!! If I were Mueller, I would replace his scope based on that thread alone ... it gives him credibility. Mags has been an active member here for over a year with a considerable number of well thought out, intelligent posts. MOC has ZERO credibility as far as I'm concerned and I wasn't at all impressed by their approach. They could so easily have replaced the scope based solely on the imperfection, Mags would have raved about the customer service and none of the other supposed "scope abusers" would have been the wiser.

So much for their explanation in the FAQ on their web site:

Why are Mueller scopes priced so low?

Mueller Optics prefers targeted advertising with reviews in online journals and word of mouth endorsements from satisfied customers rather than mass-market advertising. This allows us to greatly reduce advertising costs associated with mass-market advertising. By doing so, we can eliminate these costs from the price of our products. In all, we don't feel you should be paying the excessively high costs of today's advertising which can cost in excess of $5,000 for just one Magazine ad.

Please help us in promoting our line by spreading the word about Mueller's new line of Rifle Scopes so we can continue to offer our products at a reduced rate. Helping us promote our line can be done in many way's and can include such places as; Online Hunting and Shooting forums, Rifle Ranges, Sporting Goods Stores, Hunting Trips, Guide Services, etc...


:)
 
No one on the internet can possibly know what the true story is.

Indeed, it has been stated before, but deserves restating.

What I do know is that Mueller is the first company I've ever seen log onto a forum to refute a claim like this. Which to me, regardless, is completely unprofessional

I've seen it very very often as far as computer components.

Manufacturers even have the ability to directly reply to bad reviews given to their products on Newegg.com The problem there is that a lot of user reviews on Newegg show complete lack of knowledge of computer parts....some of them are even likely people paid to bash their competitors.

Then again, the only companies I see on Newegg refuting negative reviews, are those companies that are well known to sell absolute JUNK...and most of their responses are absolute BUNK.

On forums I see representatives from companies all the time. One of the companies known for the best CS in computer components though (Corsair) has employees posting on forums who I have never seen refute a claim of malfunctioning equipment, instead they ask the users to contact them or Corsair in order to get the problems worked out.

However, if the photo that MOC posted shows the scope upside down, then what is that in the foreground? It looks kind of like a turret to me....
 
Gary, there's a bunch of differences between your story and Mags'. Namely, he has warranty coverage on brand new product.

I also gotta ask... If the person with out of warranty product needed $35 worth of work, would your company have considered eating the cost, in the name of marketing and relations? Companies spend billions/trillions of dollars on marketing their company name. A few bucks spent spoiling customers goes a long ways and is the best PR money can buy. Your good experience with Mueller lends credit to this, as I'm sure you'd buy another one if the need arose, right?

Look at Apple and Microsoft. One is hip & cool and the darling of the industry and gets a huge premium for the price of their product, while the other is generally viewed as evil. Contrary to popular opinion, they put out a similar product (I work in the industry). The only real difference is very, very good marketing.

A lot of it depends on the industry. If this were Arm and Hammer - you're outta luck bud, buy another box. But they have no competition.

All I was ever trying to do was help Mags get another scope. I'm shocked that Mueller did not give in, but I guaranty more than $35 got taken out of Mueller's hide in the process of denying Mags.
 
1858 - the IRONY in that malarkey about word of mouth marketing. Someones head should roll.

I think it's a great idea - when it's practiced.
 
I think it's a great idea - when it's practiced.
As do I; I am the first to stand up and recommend an outstanding product or service company (and often do so right here in this venue), especially if I have had a good experience with their customer service (Liberty Optics immediately comes to mind and have the best CS in the industry IMO). OTOH I don't hold my tongue for companies that I feel I have been wronged by (CCI/Speer Ammunition also comes to mind), as I feel others shouldn't have to repeat my mistakes. Furthermore I tend to do quite a bit of research, make inquiries, and read reviews before investing in any high-end product (particularly when it comes to firearm related components) as I like to learn from other folks mistakes.

:)
 
ArtP said:
1858 - the IRONY in that malarkey about word of mouth marketing.

Seriously!!

Mav, I've been fortunate in 99% of my dealings with everything related to firearms. Four outfits that really stand out for me are LaRue Tactical, Liberty Optics (thank you), Online Gun Deals and Leupold. I've rewarded all four with my loyalty which equates to money ... quite a lot of it I might add. Oh, I almost forgot .... MidwayUSA ... they're not the cheapest place to buy supplies and gear but I've been ordering from them for 15 years or so (prior to Al Gore's invention) and they've never screwed up a single order and I'm not going to tell you how many orders I've placed with them or how much money I've sent their way, but I'm fairly confident that I single-handedly put one of Larry P's kids through college!! :what:

Just thought it'd be good to say something positive ... all this friction is tiring.

:)
 
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